The Slayer made the correct choice

[Edmund Blackadder]

I have just been reading the best and worst decision thread and one that comes up a few times as te worst decision is Buffy sacrificing herself in The Gift.

There are MANY problems with the Gift and I even think Buffy's sacrifice shouldn't have worked HOWEVER it did so lets not quibble.

Why is her sacrifice to Dawn viewed as a bad, if not the worst, decision?

Dawn was an innocent in all this.
She hadn't asked to be created.
She hadn't asked to be part of Buffy's family.
She was though. The Monks gave her life. Thats right, life.
She was a living breathing human with a special attribute.

The Slayer has a responsibility. That is to protect the innocent from all stuff the normal world ignores.

I fail to see how Buffy, saving the life of an innocent, could have made another choice.

As I said in that thread. The moment we have a selfish Slayer, someone who would kill an innocent rather than sacrifice themselves, we have another Faith circa season 3.

The Slayer shouldn't decide which innocent lives and which one dies, thet should all be saved.

Rant over...until someone disagrees🙂

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

My opinion on this is what it was selfish of Buffy to sacrifice herself in place of Dawn. She is the Slayer, and the world needs her. I know she loves Dawn. I love Dawn. BUT what Buffy did was out of love and was selfish.

I know it wasn't Dawn's fault. But saving one person at the sake of the whole world?

Just my own opinion 🙂
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You say, "The Slayer has a responsibility." I agree.

You say, "The Slayer shouldn't decide which innocent lives and which one dies, they should all be saved." I agree as well.

I think Giles had a point, too. It makes more sense for Dawn to die so everyone in the world can live. And when Buffy realized that Summers Blood was also her blood and all that...she should have thought about what effect killing herself would have on her mission and calling. If she's dead, who will protect all the innocent people? I guess she assumed another Slayer would be called...but one wasn't. The world was Slayerless. Faith was in jail, obviously not out there fighting the fight.

To me, when Buffy jumped off that tower, she abandoned her responsibility to the world, the people she's chosen to protect.

 

[Spuffyy]

Edmund I see your point and I'd agree with you but LifeIsJustThis has an even better one, I think.

By not doing what she was dutifully supposed to, she jeopardized the world instead of just one "innocent" and the stakes were higher obviously with the decision she made. (No pun intended.) Many innocents have to die on the journey for the final battle and there was many-a-innocent that Buffy never saved, Dawn's death wouldn't have been any different. However it was different BECAUSE of her relationship to Buffy, and therefore she saved her and we have slayer selfishness case and point.

 

[caitaintdead]

I agree with you 100%.

When Faith kills the Deputy Mayor the point is clearly made that it is not the slayers job to kill people, and there are laws for these people. I have never heard people say on mass that they think Faith accidently killing the Deputy Mayor is okay or just. So why do people think that it okay for Buffy to kill someone to save the world.

As Giles says when he is killing Ben, Buffy could never do that. She's a hero.

To people that think Buffy should have let Dawn jump I would like you to think about the person that you love the most, someone you feel a huge amount of dedication for. This might be a younger sibling, your husband or wife, a child or a close friend. I want you to imagine that you could save your life so that they could live. Tell me you wouldn't consider throwing yourself of a bridge for this person?

Now imagine that your job, your destiny, your entire purpose for living was to protect the innocent. Really think about it. Could you do it? Could you let this person die?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Edmund I see your point and I'd agree with you but LifeIsJustThis has an even better one, I think.

By not doing what she was dutifully supposed to, she jeopardized the world instead of just one "innocent" and the stakes were higher obviously with the decision she made. (No pun intended.) Many innocents have to die on the journey for the final battle and there was many-a-innocent that Buffy never saved, Dawn's death wouldn't have been any different. However it was different BECAUSE of her relationship to Buffy, and therefore she saved her and we have slayer selfishness case and point.

Hehe thanks. Edmund does have a point though. It's a tricky scenario but man, do I love the moral ambiguity of the Buffyverse!

So, Spuffyy, how you liking it on here so far? We're a big bunch of opinionates lol. (if thats even a word)
We love heated discussions 😉

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Buffy did what she always did.
She sacrificed herself for someone else.
Every single time she fights, she is putting herself up there.

We know she has it in her to kill the ones she loves for the greater good, we've seen that with Angel.

Right now, at this time, we have Buffy understanding the greatest threat to humanity is the portal.
She understands there are 2 choices.
Kill Dawn and live life as a murderer or sacrifice herself and do her duty.
Buffy would view allowing Dawn to kill herself as this, because any one of us would feel exactly the same.

However there is an argument to her being selfish.

She is the Slayer, graned BUT she is part of a calling that doesn't end with her death, it continues.

Buffy/Kendra/Faith is unprecedented but that doesn't mean she jumps thinking 'Oh well, no more Slayer cause Faiths a naughty girl' and/or 'to hell with the world' she is doing it for the very reason to live, family - arguably the one thing that has made her THE most successful Slayer.

Also, even tohugh Faith is locked up, she is still a Slayer and the fact that she is in Prison paying for her crimes is positive reinforcement that she could be of use.

AND its not like Buffy is the ONLY person on the planet fighting demons. She doesn't leave the planet defenseless. On the contrary she knows that humanity has so many people fighting for it.

So, I do not agree with arguments that she was wrong and that it was a selfish decision.

 

[caitaintdead]

See, I see a huge difference between Buffy sacrificing Angel to save the world and her sacrificing Dawn.

As much as Angel is an innocent, he isn't.

Dawn couldn't be more innocent if she tried. One of the reasons why she annoyed me so much as well funnily enough!

Funny that no one ever discusses whether it was the right or wrong thing for the scoobies to sacrifice the box full of spiders for Willows life? Is there a difference? Would you have let them kill Willow to keep the box of… and here comes a Buffy moment if this is the wrong word… Gavrok?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Buffy did what she always did.
She sacrificed herself for someone else.
Every single time she fights, she is putting herself up there.

We know she has it in her to kill the ones she loves for the greater good, we've seen that with Angel.

Right now, at this time, we have Buffy understanding the greatest threat to humanity is the portal.
She understands there are 2 choices.
Kill Dawn and live life as a murderer or sacrifice herself and do her duty.
Buffy would view allowing Dawn to kill herself as this, because any one of us would feel exactly the same.

However there is an argument to her being selfish.

She is the Slayer, graned BUT she is part of a calling that doesn't end with her death, it continues.

Buffy/Kendra/Faith is unprecedented but that doesn't mean she jumps thinking 'Oh well, no more Slayer cause Faiths a naughty girl' and/or 'to hell with the world' she is doing it for the very reason to live, family - arguably the one thing that has made her THE most successful Slayer.

Also, even tohugh Faith is locked up, she is still a Slayer and the fact that she is in Prison paying for her crimes is positive reinforcement that she could be of use.

AND its not like Buffy is the ONLY person on the planet fighting demons. She doesn't leave the planet defenseless. On the contrary she knows that humanity has so many people fighting for it.

So, I do not agree with arguments that she was wrong and that it was a selfish decision.

Great points but I stick by my side 🙂 You have given me a lot to think about though...

*ponders
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See, I see a huge difference between Buffy sacrificing Angel to save the world and her sacrificing Dawn.

As much as Angel is an innocent, he isn't.

Dawn couldn't be more innocent if she tried. One of the reasons why she annoyed me so much as well funnily enough!

Funny that no one ever discusses whether it was the right or wrong thing for the scoobies to sacrifice the box full of spiders for Willows life? Is there a difference? Would you have let them kill Willow to keep the box of"¦ and here comes a Buffy moment if this is the wrong word"¦ Gavrok?

No! I meant both of you. 🙂 That's a great point about the spider box...

 

[Relic]

Buffy said so herself to Giles...that if Dawn did not make it, as far as the whole slayer thing...she's done.

That's not selfish so much as honesty. Heartfelt decissions are just that, honest.

With Buffy we are asking for her donation, so to speak, her charity, her sacrifice. You can not fault a person for what they can't get over. What makes them have a will to fight, or what can make them loose it. If Buffy had let Dawn take the jump, then we truelly would not have had a slayer. Buffy would cease to be Buffy.

I don't think it was selfish at all. Her gift was death, not killing. Death of a normal life-hers. Death of safety-hers. Death at the hands of some unnatural monster one day-hers.

'Gifts' aren't selfish and rarely a bad decision...hey it's the thought that counts, right! 🙂
Buffy will die and the line will continue as it always has. She was still saving the world just as she always does, but with the addition of Dawn, too.

Think of it this way:
A slayer agrees to takes a (mutual) deathblow - say an obvious trap, or overwhelming odds, whatever- in a fight with a vampire that was going to eat a baby. Now the slayer could simply let the vampire eat the kid and not put herself into deadly pearl, come back latter and stake the vamp when it's not so dangerous so she can continue to kill vampires and serve humanity when it is statistically in her favor to survive while doing so...but that would not be a slayer by design then, no? Concerning a slayers role and how they are designed, I don't think buffy's decision was turning a blind eye to responsibility, its owning up to and realizing it.

When a slayer is made they are expected to die and the line continues, the only way Buffys decision could approach that moral grey area is that is she was the only slayer ever, a finite resource...and even then I'd do the same thing she did, gladly.

 

[randiann]

My opinion on this is what it was selfish of Buffy to sacrifice herself in place of Dawn. She is the Slayer, and the world needs her. I know she loves Dawn. I love Dawn. BUT what Buffy did was out of love and was selfish.

I know it wasn't Dawn's fault. But saving one person at the sake of the whole world?

Just my own opinion 🙂
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You say, "The Slayer has a responsibility." I agree.

You say, "The Slayer shouldn't decide which innocent lives and which one dies, they should all be saved." I agree as well.

I think Giles had a point, too. It makes more sense for Dawn to die so everyone in the world can live. And when Buffy realized that Summers Blood was also her blood and all that...she should have thought about what effect killing herself would have on her mission and calling. If she's dead, who will protect all the innocent people? I guess she assumed another Slayer would be called...but one wasn't. The world was Slayerless. Faith was in jail, obviously not out there fighting the fight.

To me, when Buffy jumped off that tower, she abandoned her responsibility to the world, the people she's chosen to protect.

If Buffy dies who will protect the world? The Slayer. Easy as that. Yes Faith's in prison, but as she shows in AngelS4 if she's needed in the battle she's there. Prision's not gonna stop her. So to answer your question who will protect all the innocent people: the Slayer. Who will protect them after Faith dies? The Slayer. That's why the line passes. It'd already passed Buffy (hence Kendra and Faith), but there's still a Slayer there. Calling Buffy selfish for sacrificing herself to save her sister AND the world is silly. That's why they call it sacrifice, it's the opposite of selfishness.

 

[PurplePoof]

I agree with LifeIsJustThis...Buffy was the Slayer, she was important to the world...Dawn wasn't.

And let's be honest now...the idea that one life (no matter how precious) is more important than the entire world is just bone-headed, stubborn, "I'm thinking with my heart and not my head" logic. It may have been difficult for her to kill Dawn, but nowhere near as difficult for others to deal with a lack of a slayer.

 

[Girl with Sword]

I think it was a stupid, selfish discision. I love the Gift becuase it's wonderfully done, kudos to all involved but I hate that Buffy died. Not only did it make no sense that it worked but Buffy couldn't have known for sure. She guessed, she killed herself on a hunch, luckily it worked. She left the world without a slayer, worse, she left Sunnydale without a slayer. Her death is also the scource of why season six is so depressing and I hate Dawn. Not realy imporatnt just like to mention it.

I kind of agree with the point about Faith. If they'd have called her she would have come. But I doubt the scoobies trust her. Did they even tell her that Buffy died?

But it made sense that she jumped. She was ready, they had been building up to it all season. "Death is your gift" and Fool For Love. Death is always at a slayer's heels and she can run forever but eventually she gets tired. Buffy got tired, you can see it in the look on her face as she jumps, she was ready. She wanted to die. It wasn't all about procting Dawn, it was also sucide.

Do I think it was selfish? Yes. Do I think it logicly shouldn't have worked? Yes. Do I think it fit? Yes.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I agree with LifeIsJustThis...Buffy was the Slayer, she was important to the world...Dawn wasn't.

And let's be honest now...the idea that one life (no matter how precious) is more important than the entire world is just bone-headed, stubborn, "I'm thinking with my heart and not my head" logic. It may have been difficult for her to kill Dawn, but nowhere near as difficult for others to deal with a lack of a slayer.

I think you just summed it up quite beautifully 🙂
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I think it was a stupid, selfish discision. I love the Gift becuase it's wonderfully done, kudos to all involved but I hate that Buffy died. Not only did it make no sense that it worked but Buffy couldn't have known for sure. She guessed, she killed herself on a hunch, luckily it worked. She left the world without a slayer, worse, she left Sunnydale without a slayer. Her death is also the scource of why season six is so depressing and I hate Dawn. Not realy imporatnt just like to mention it.

I kind of agree with the point about Faith. If they'd have called her she would have come. But I doubt the scoobies trust her. Did they even tell her that Buffy died?

But it made sense that she jumped. She was ready, they had been building up to it all season. "Death is your gift" and Fool For Love. Death is always at a slayer's heels and she can run forever but eventually she gets tired. Buffy got tired, you can see it in the look on her face as she jumps, she was ready. She wanted to die. It wasn't all about procting Dawn, it was also sucide.

Do I think it was selfish? Yes. Do I think it logicly shouldn't have worked? Yes. Do I think it fit? Yes.

I'm really glad you brought this up. I have always viewed her "sacrifice" as a suicide. This seems to be a touchy topic, so I'm hesitant to bring it up.

 

[fly on the wall]

Every time Buffy fought any sort of beastie, she was putting her life at risk.
But she did, because she was the Slayer, and I don't really see how this is any different.

Besides, Buffy is not JUST a Slayer. She's also a sister. And I think I would have looked at her totally different if she allowed ANY innocent to die. Her sister, her friend, her mom, her watcher, a vampire with a chip in his head, a stranger on the street. She wouldn't be Buffy if she just let innocents die. And she wouldn't be Buffy if she let her own sister die.

Her death is also the scource of why season six is so depressing

Do you really think S6 would have been LESS depressing if Buffy had no family, having suffered the death of her mother AND little sister the season before? And then the death of Tara, and then Xander and Anya breaking up, and Giles leaving, and...do you really think Buffy would have been less depressed?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Buffy said so herself to Giles...that if Dawn did not make it, as far as the whole slayer thing...she's done.

While I agree with alot of what you said, I want to comment on this.

I don't view Buffy's death here as her living up to her promise, I actually think Buffy was living up to her calling.

On the tower Buffy had her own epiphany, her moment of clarity where everything made sense (I just wish they had made it so we understood because still it doesn't) where she realised she could do something for the world, and her sister.

I agree with LifeIsJustThis...Buffy was the Slayer, she was important to the world...Dawn wasn't.

And let's be honest now...the idea that one life (no matter how precious) is more important than the entire world is just bone-headed, stubborn, "I'm thinking with my heart and not my head" logic. It may have been difficult for her to kill Dawn, but nowhere near as difficult for others to deal with a lack of a slayer.

Its not about being honest.

She does save the entire world. Her selfishness was when she told Giles that if he tried to kill her she would stop him AND that if Dawn opened the portal the last thing she would see was her sister fighting.

This was Buffy not doing what was necessary BUT when she was on that tower she understood that she could close it.
IF Buffy died simply to save Dawn fair game BUT she died saving an absolute innocent AND the world.

As for 'lack of a Slayer' well, not quite. Faith was The Slayer and she was in prison atoning for her sins which meant that she was starting to understand what she was. Plus we don't know at that time that Buffy didn't think there wouldn't be another Slayer called.

Buffy was not leaving the world Slayerless, she was saving the world from unmaginable hell.

I think it was a stupid, selfish discision. I love the Gift ......,
Do I think it was selfish? Yes. Do I think it logicly shouldn't have worked? Yes. Do I think it fit? Yes.

This thread isn't to discuss the logic of The Gift in the sense that things don't add up.

I have some big issues with Buffy being able to close the portal, but this is about taking as read that Buffy can close it.

As for the Scoobies and not trusting Faith - so what.
When did they have any significance in the Slayers life?
They were Buffy's friends BUT nothing to do with the Slayer, even Giles was only a Watcher.

Faith was the active Slayer, she doesn't need to report to any of them and she doesn't need them to trust her.

I definitely don't agree that Buffy got tired either. She jumped to save the life of her sister, she did what was required of The Slayer to save the world.

Buffy fought The Master KNOWING she was going to die, she didn't go there giving up, she went with the intention to take him with her.

I think you just summed it up quite beautifully 🙂
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I'm really glad you brought this up. I have always viewed her "sacrifice" as a suicide. This seems to be a touchy topic, so I'm hesitant to bring it up.

Well it is suicide BUT its done to save the day, its the ultimate act of sacrifice.

 

[fly on the wall]

Well..comparing it to a suicide is sort of like comparing a parent who jumps in front of a bullet to save their child to a suicide.
I guess by technical definition it's suicide...but it's different, because it was done out of love and sacrifice and in order to save someone.

 

[Relic]

About this whole Buffy being tired of it all and committing suicide, I don't agree with that.

I can understand how people would think that way, especially concerning the relevance of the Spike episode where he tells Buffy that every Slayer has a death wish. Buffy already had that moment though, when she goes catatonic and revisits it..the moment when she let go of Dawn and lost to Glory in her head...where she gave up.

She got over that moment as well. What was the reason? Willows mind meld or finally understanding her gift and purpose? I think it was her purpose, saving her sister and the world.

The act is not selfish in my eyes, or suicidal any more than a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his friends. Does a person commit an act of sacrifice more to escape an unwanted condition/existence (for instance is the soldier so tired of the war he/she wishes to kill themselves) or is the act of sacrifice more
to protect their friends? I imagine it could be a little of both or one and not the other. It depends on the person

In the soldiers case there is no way to tell for certain it will work either, the grenade could go off a fraction of a second before they leap on it and cover it and still kill everyone, yet the effort remains to try and give others a gift of a chance.

I don't think buffy was putting anyone in grave danger if she did not get to her greande in time- so to speak. In Buffy's scenario I imagine she thought that if the portal would not have closed and she was wrong about the blood, I imagine Buffy 'knew' Dawn would likely jump after her if that was the case, so the portal would be sealed anyway. What I believe Buffy was hoping for was a gift of a chance at a childhood for her sister.

Concerning the Spike speech, the whole key thing, and season 5 overall. Buffy is the gift. She had every reason to run with Dawn and quit the slayer Gig. She didn't. She had a luxury no other slayer Spike has killed or any slayer a watcher has ever commented on or documented.

She had Faith as a living back up/ active slayer.

She could have totally distanced herself from the council, from Sunny dale, from Glory. She could have stopped trying to stop Glory and just ran away with the key from the very beginning. What I'm getting at might be flawed, as I'm not sure in total who accurate it is, but how can it be said she got tired of the Slayer gig and had a death wish when she could, in premise, quit? Thats probably best left for another thread, though.

With that last questionable bit I was just trying to lend more strength toward my opinion that Buffy did not jump because she was tired and had a death wish she had a lot to live for and she jumped to protect those things. I never saw that moment of giving up in her eyes. What I saw in them was resolution, calm confidence, and peacefulness. What you see kinda depends on what you look for. I just think those that disagree on this are just coming at it differently.

On a side note, Edmund I don't understand what your getting at with the whole quote of me thing. What I said was basically what Buffy told Giles, that if Dawn did not live, and Glory was stopped, Buffy was done with slaying. Maybe she would let the council reform Faith or whatever?

I'm fully aware thats not why she jumped so i think we are in agreement? She didn't jump to quit being a slayer and Dawn was not dead. She jumped to protect the innocent, the same reason why all slayers are designed to be sacrifices.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I argue though that Buffy secretly wanted it all to end. She had a daeth wish. Jumping for Dawn was yes, to save her, but also an excuse to commit suicide. She said so herself in Afterlife (?) when she was talking to Spike, "I was finished. Complete."
She was done. I don't blame her. She'd been through a lot.

Just my opinion 🙂

 

[fly on the wall]

^ I always took what she said to Spike to mean, her purpose was being fulfilled. It was making sense.

I strongly believe in everything leading up to the Gift was all prophecized and planned. The monks who made Dawn knew Glory would find the Key, and that's why they made it into something Buffy would die for. Buffy was going to die, that was the plan all along. So I think that when Buffy says that, it means before she jumped she had this moment of perfect clarity. What the First Slayer had told her, everything she'd learned and fought for, it all made sense in that moment. And then she jumped, and in the heaven dimension she KNEW she'd made the right choice, that the world had been saved and her friends and family were okay.

I don't agree that she was suicidal, at all. Where do we get any hint of that before she jumps? This wasn't a season of Buffy rejecting her identity and her responsibilities and wanting it all to end. She was embracing who she was and what she was put on Earth to do. Sacrificing herself was just a part of that.

 

[cryptwarmer]

Well..comparing it to a suicide is sort of like comparing a parent who jumps in front of a bullet to save their child to a suicide.
I guess by technical definition it's suicide...but it's different, because it was done out of love and sacrifice and in order to save someone.

Not all "heroic" acts are the same. Any person in such a situation could be being totally selfless, only doing the act to save the person in danger, that is true. And when we know only the bare facts and nothing of the person themselves, we should probably assume the noblest of reasons and allow ourselves to be happy that there are truly selfless heroes in the world.

Then there are the complexities that make up human personalities and life. And I have personally heard decorated soldiers tell their own stories, and some of them have said "I thought "this was it", I could save my buddies, go out a hero, be done with it. Then I woke up in the hospital..." Yes, they are heroes, yes, they meant to save their buddies and further the cause of their side, but there was a part of them that wanted "out".

It doesn't lessen the good or value of what they did, lives are saved, the cause is furthered, etc, just the same either way, but sometimes people are tired, ready to be done, ready to hand the red cape and tights to the next guy. It could be a fleeting moment feeling, or something more lasting.

I've spoken to some heroes who have said that they didn't know what they were thinking, that they were having a bad week, had just lost their job/significant other/home, and when they saw the opportunity thought to themselves "I'm a failure, I can give up my life for someone else, I can make this mean something" and said that on another day, they probably wouldn't have acted as "selfless", if their own life had been going better, they would have thought of what they had to lose (their life) rather than that they had nothing to lose.

Given what Buffy had been through, the responsibilities and losses, I can imagine her in the category of a hero who is willing to sacrafice themselves for others, but yeah, is also ready to be done for themselves as well.

Also, she KNEW that slayers lives are short and violent, so always in her head there is going to be the question "is this fight my last?". And when people are regularly asking themself that question, there are going to be days that they might wish it was their last, when life has gotten so overwhelming that it might not look like such a bad thing to go down in a hard fight.

What Spike told her about slayers having a death wish, has some truth behind it. Not that the slayer wants to die, but yeah, sometimes the whole thing gets so hard that maybe for an instant, she is considering giving up, and when that instant comes, there is always something or someone waiting to take her out, send her to her peace.