The Slayer made the correct choice

[Relic]

cryptwarmer, man, your post was good. Not that any others arguing your point were not good too....but you made it very personal for me. That just stengthened my stand though.

The reason why I bring up jumping on grenades is that I made a friend about a year ago who did something similiar. I could be prosecuted under HIPPA guidlines if I gave the fellows name, so I won't.....let's just say a possible side effect from seditary lifestyle; like one brought on by paralysis, is the formation of kidney stones. My role as a glorified button pusher for a machine that breaks up kidney stones has afforded me the opportunity to know a true hero.

I know a guy who instead of pulling a door handel and begging to get into a Buffalo, instead blanketed a doorway to the vehicle when an IUD went off.

He was having a good life all in all, he was a non combatant, his wife had a child while he was away and he was close to going home to them, he was skilled at mechanics. (why we are buddies to some extent) the GI bill was going to make him go places etc. etc.

In short he was a hero and had a future, a true good guy mans-man. He had a great life ahead of him and he gave up his wants for his brothers.

I'm about to play the role of duche bag and put this guys expierence and mine for knowing him up for 'debate' in my comparison to Buffy. Thats all right, to me he's more a hero than Buffy- he's real and he certainly did not comit suicide, he had a lot to live for. I don't feel guilty for telling some of his story as i know some appreciate it.

Appreciation, huh, a lot of martyrs have that, that does not mean they are willing in their sacrifice so much as a cause will be willing to use them. Thats not what it should be about all the time. Buffy had no big message other than waht she told dawn...which was basically to live. makes me think that is what we are suppose to belive Buf was dying for.

Back to the real world and my limited application of it. I hold this fellow I know in very high esteam. He is my friend and he is more a hero than Joss or any of his writing crew can ever be. But they (the writing crew) do know their craft and how to craft it. A sacrifice isn't a s sacrifice or a gift unless it involves giving and loss.

My friend had much to live for (and even had an uphill fight). At the fulcrum of my 'point' I'd argue so did Buffy; heros can be alike like that.. She is the truest imaginary hero I can relate to as far as relivance to the real life counter part.

She lost her mother and her boy friend and had been fighting a fight of eventual attriation for how long? Her tour had no end, though no person was enforcing the duty but her. Yet, she still fought it even after given the chance not to.

She had her ups and down and moment of doubt....moment of yearning for relief. It was not on the tower IMHO

What brought her from her true surrender...suicide if you will, a state of worthless catonia no longer living? What shoved that through the doorway to become a person going toe to toe with a God to save her sister, (If it was really about giving up, why not do so against waht she said she could not beat?)

I say what brought her out of her tailspin was her sense of responsibility and conviction, both not lacking when she jumped.

She wanted to be a Joyce for Dawn and if there was any other way to seal that portal short of becomming a murderer I believe she would have taken it so she could live longer to protect her sister.

her smile while leaping into the portal was a royal flush. She could protect her sister as well as having 'peace favor her sword' (Long live Lan) It was a perfect ending for her. She had fullfillment as it stands and went to her end with a smile on her face. Fighters tend to do that and to me it's no big discovery.

She wanted her fight to the end, notthe end of her life...her life had her sister and friends in it. She said herself if there was no other way to stop glory the last thing dawn would see was her sister protecting her.

If she could protect them all and finally have a moments rest I would not begrudge her a grin. 🙂

She was so confident in its rightness (or ill informed?) she didn't worry about what Willow or maybe Giles did...that she would end up in hell or some demon dimension.....or maybe she just figired she'd take up where she left off kicking demon ass in hell or elsewhere.....thats my Buffy (maybe not yours.)

heros are often made...or remade...by that quality known as protection.

The way I see it Buffy never committed suicide. She never hung up the cape....she justwore it so much the cape fell apart.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I'm not being funny Relic BUT you should highlight when you make additions because you write so much that when you add things and not at the end, its quite frustrating to read so much again

 

[Relic]

Bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, (sorry that was for add/edit repost credit. 🙂 )

hehe...I am an add edit whore., I try and loop around the 15 time frame sometimes. It is hard when your not on a native computer and can't spell check or be as precise as you want to be. (away from home tonight at a hotel comp, and the sixer of stouts X2 ain't helping either)

If i knew how to highlight bro, i would do so. I'm a bit thicko with the comps. 🙂

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,

he he...I am an add edit whore.

If i knew how to highlight bro, i would do so. I'm a bit thicko with the comps. 🙂

Go into advanced edit and click bold and cover it all.

OR simply place ALL your edits after the edit instead of writing 'bahhhhhhhh'

 

[cryptwarmer]

I've noticed something, which is about our own psychology, and maybe about Buffy...it's about our reactions to certain words.
Sacrifice, murder, suicide, hero...to some any time anyone kills anyone...it's murder, but apparently, when one does something that leads to one's own death, it's NOT always suicide, sometimes it's a heroic sacrifice. Others, argue that sometimes killing another, is likewise a heroic sacrafice, while others argue that is it always MURDER.

Is this just about our own reaction to the conotations of words? Or does it have to do with what we NEED Buffy and other heroes to be for us to sleep comfortably in our beds?

For some Buffy would not be a hero to them if she were to sacrifice a human for that cause...either to let Dawn jump, to kill Ben to keep Glory from ever rising again on this earth, etc. Yet what about when she sends the potentials in to fight the first, knowing many will die, when they go to attack Caleb at the winery before the potentials have gotten their full slayer power? Is the fact that she isn't wielding the blade that kills them enough to cleanse her hands, if she'd let Dawn jump, would Buffy remain a hero in your eyes?

Is a suicide mission not a suicide because the death is a byproduct?
Is Giles justified in smothering Ben?

True Dawn didn't choose to be human, or to be the key, but neither did Buffy choose to be a slayer...is Dawn truly innocent?

Buffy stabs Angel knowing he has returned to his soulful good guy self...was that wrong?

I agree that the slayer, that any of us, cannot live always second guessing our decisions. We act on the information we have, with the experience we have at the time, and where we are emotionally.

Buffy was not going to let her sister die, she'd lost a father, and a mother and a lover. I don't think she could have lived with herself had she let Dawn die, and certainly not if she'd killed Dawn herself. I mean, she's a hero, but she's human too.

And her experience killing Angel has changed her. She waffles on the issue in later seasons...willing to kill Anya, but not willing to kill Spike. And I do think with Spike, it was not JUST that she thought he could be useful to their cause, I think some of it was personal. That's OK, a hero without humanity is not a hero, they are a robot, a fighting machine, but NOT a hero.

To be a hero, one must feel, care, hurt, know the very human emotions and issues involved in what they are doing. If one is ignorant or unfeeling, then what they are doing is no sacrifice at all.

This is why my respect for Buffy is not altered by the fact that I think part of her was willing to end it. I don't think that was her main motivation for jumping into the portal. I don't think she was suicidal on a daily basis, but I do think that she was ready and willing to take death, be done with the pain of living and the constant fight of being a slayer. I don't think that lessens what she did.

Nor do I think less of Giles for smothering Ben. Yes, it was murder, in the strictest sense, but they were at war, whether it was a traditional one or not, and in wars people are called upon to do things they wouldn't do in an average day, to make decisions that they would not make in any other situation.

It's easier to see in an apolcolypse situation...to call what Buffy did, something other than a suicide mission, to justify Giles killing of Ben, to be understanding about Willow wanting to end all the pain humanity puts itself through, etc.

Spike sees Buffy's entire life as a mission, as a war. That is why he doesn't want her to turn herself in over Katrina. Why he tries to remind her of all the people who's lives she's saved and will save, and how this one is one unfortunate casualty. She can't hear it, but it resonates with some of the viewers. Looking at the bigger picture, while Buffy was looking from another perspective.

Spike had been around a long time, he'd been part of the battle of good and evil for over a century. He could see the value of what Buffy did on a scale that she could not yet see for herself. She accused him of not valuing Katrina's life, and in a sense he didn't, but not merely out of selfishness. He knows, having watched 5 generations live and die over the course of his own existence how cheap a single life is, how fleeting, how short and pained. The dead man is the one who repeatedly exhorts Buffy to live both her human and slayer lives to their fullest.

She can't hear him, but eventually she puts it together, through visions, meditations, experience, observations, she finally begins to understand her role as both slayer and human. And she finally is able to hear him, when he tells her he loves what she is, a hell of a woman.

People don't have to be perfect, or selfless, or totally of one mind to be a hero, but they MUST be human, they must allow themselves to feel and know, and try and fail and try again. If they are of one mind, we discount them, like the endless vampires that Buffy dusts, we don't feel sorry for them, because they feel only one motivation. We could not love and respect Buffy if her only motivation was the cause, if she never stumbled over her own misgivings, if she never wanted to give up, but kept on anyway.

I have a magnet on my fridge with this quote on it "No idols, no icons. Only blessedly fallible heroes are welcomed in this fragile reality."

I wrote that myself.

 

[Angel's vision]

To me I fail to see the logic in seeing Buffy's jump to save Dawn as selfish. In Dr Who he would sacrifice himself or make another way instead of killing, for example, that would not make him selfish, the latter it would teach people that violence solves nothing. Anyway back to the point, slayers in the past have faced battles knowing that each one could be their last, their lives are short because they have to fight demons to the point that they face death. That is part of their calling, now tell me is that any more "selfish" than Buffy jumping for Dawn? The argument "but the world needs the slayer therefore her death was selfish" is pointless because she is facing death situations every day or night for our benefit and giving up her right to live to keep us safe if the need calls for it.

You might as well call every slayer who died to save the world selfish as well. To even suggest Dawn should of been pushed off or allowed to die to save the world disturbs me alot. I think that was a sick thing to say sorry.

 

[Jezba]

so...Doesn't anybody remember that in season 7 when Giles asked Buffy if she were faced with the same decision again, would she let Dawn die to save the world? she said that she would, if she had to

 

[fly on the wall]

^ Right. But Giles didn't ask her, "If you OR Dawn had to die to save the world, would you let Dawn die?" which is a very different scenario.

Buffy sacrificed herself, in place of her sister, to save the world. That was her job - to save the world - not an innocent's. What she meant in Season Seven is if she couldn't take Dawn's place, if letting Dawn die was the only option, yes, she'd do that.
Because even in S7, I'm pretty sure she would have taken that jump again.

 

[PurplePoof]

I have a question for those who consider it selfish, a suicide, etc....what do you make of her going down to see the Master in S1, then? Was that suicide, or any less heroic? She could have run, she could have moved to Cleveland and fought evil there, but she didn't. She willingly walked to her death. And yes, the situation's a little different in S5, but still..

That was prophetic (or at least she thought it was)...and there really wasn't a conceivable alternative like there was in The Gift...not a reasonable one, anyway. It was her belief based on misinformation that the Master would rise if she didn't go to his "lair" and stop him. There wasn't someone else she could have sent in her place. ::huh1::

 

[fly on the wall]

^ But I don't think she WOULD HAVE sent someone else in her place. And I don't think she would have let Dawn kill herself. It's not Buffy's style to let innocents do what she can do, what she's supposed to do. If Buffy had just stood there and let Dawn jump...well, she just wouldn't be our Buffy.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Buffy was never the stereotypical definition of a "hero"...she was a flawed character, and sometimes a "hero" has to make a sacrifice for the greater good...if Buffy dying was the ONLY option, it would've been heroic. But it wasn't. And the smile you see on her face before she leaps off the tower indicates she was happy to finally be putting herself to rest. Suicide isn't heroic.

Agreed. PP just said it perfectly..."...she was happy to finally be putting herself to rest". Let's not forget, Dawn was willing to jump off the tower to save the world. She was willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good. What if Buffy had let Dawn be the hero? Really, it could be said that Dawn in the hero in this situation. The reason Dawn let Buffy jump was only because she knew she couldn't stop her sister once she'd made the decision to jump in her place. I think this scene shows how brave Dawn really is.

People interpret things differently. That's the beauty of this show and why we keep coming back to discuss it. There is no "right" answer. Ficiton is all about personal interpretion. I saw it as a suicide with the handy side effect of heroic sacrifice. Others saw it as her last heroic act to save an innocent.

Her "suicide" does not color my view of her. She is a hero. Of course she is. But is it wrong for her, at that point, to want it all to end? Maybe for that one second she thought "Hey, this is the right thing to do. I can save Dawn, save the world, I can be done. Another Slayer will be called. I can go protecting my sister. This is my end, I chose it, it's alright." That's why, I think, she smiled. 🙂

I guess the reason why people are somewhat offended at the idea of this sacrifice having elements of a suicide is because like PP said; Heroes don't kill themselves. Whatever. Heroes have many faces.

 

[PurplePoof]

To me I fail to see the logic in seeing Buffy's jump to save Dawn as selfish. In Dr Who he would sacrifice himself or make another way instead of killing, for example, that would not make him selfish, the latter it would teach people that violence solves nothing. Anyway back to the point, slayers in the past have faced battles knowing that each one could be their last, their lives are short because they have to fight demons to the point that they face death. That is part of their calling, now tell me is that any more "selfish" than Buffy jumping for Dawn? The argument "but the world needs the slayer therefore her death was selfish" is pointless because she is facing death situations every day or night for our benefit and giving up her right to live to keep us safe if the need calls for it.

You might as well call every slayer who died to save the world selfish as well. To even suggest Dawn should of been pushed off or allowed to die to save the world disturbs me alot. I think that was a sick thing to say sorry.

The difference between a slayer dying in battle and making a purposeful decision to die by their own terms are two very different things, and you can't possibly compare Buffy's death to the deaths of the slayers Spike killed or any of the others.

And how is it SICK to suggest that she kill someone for the greater good? SICK would be if she just decided Dawn was annoying one day so she decided to act out Drew Barrymore's death in Scream on her...killing one to save many is not SICK...it's practical.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

To me I fail to see the logic in seeing Buffy's jump to save Dawn as selfish. In Dr Who he would sacrifice himself or make another way instead of killing, for example, that would not make him selfish, the latter it would teach people that violence solves nothing. Anyway back to the point, slayers in the past have faced battles knowing that each one could be their last, their lives are short because they have to fight demons to the point that they face death. That is part of their calling, now tell me is that any more "selfish" than Buffy jumping for Dawn? The argument "but the world needs the slayer therefore her death was selfish" is pointless because she is facing death situations every day or night for our benefit and giving up her right to live to keep us safe if the need calls for it.

You might as well call every slayer who died to save the world selfish as well. To even suggest Dawn should of been pushed off or allowed to die to save the world disturbs me alot. I think that was a sick thing to say sorry.

First off, I'm not saying Buff should have killed her sister. I love Dawn, alright? I'm just seeing some flaw in your logic of your "its sick to think that you all think Buffy should have let Dawn die" thing. Let me explain.

Well, Giles killed Ben for the "greater good" because he knew Glory would eventually come back for payback. It seems to me there are quite a lot of instances in BtVs and AtS that people are killed for the "greater good".

Lets not forget, that circa S7, Buffy is willing to let her sister die if need be. She says herself that she would let Dawn die if she had too, because she saw the big picture now. What's at stake, the greater good was at that time more important then her love for Dawn. So, I guess what I'm asking is; would be "sick" too?
[br][/br]
Edit:
[br][/br]

I've noticed something, which is about our own psychology, and maybe about Buffy...it's about our reactions to certain words.
Sacrifice, murder, suicide, hero...to some any time anyone kills anyone...it's murder, but apparently, when one does something that leads to one's own death, it's NOT always suicide, sometimes it's a heroic sacrifice. Others, argue that sometimes killing another, is likewise a heroic sacrafice, while others argue that is it always MURDER.

Is this just about our own reaction to the conotations of words? Or does it have to do with what we NEED Buffy and other heroes to be for us to sleep comfortably in our beds?

For some Buffy would not be a hero to them if she were to sacrifice a human for that cause...either to let Dawn jump, to kill Ben to keep Glory from ever rising again on this earth, etc. Yet what about when she sends the potentials in to fight the first, knowing many will die, when they go to attack Caleb at the winery before the potentials have gotten their full slayer power? Is the fact that she isn't wielding the blade that kills them enough to cleanse her hands, if she'd let Dawn jump, would Buffy remain a hero in your eyes?

Is a suicide mission not a suicide because the death is a byproduct?
Is Giles justified in smothering Ben?

True Dawn didn't choose to be human, or to be the key, but neither did Buffy choose to be a slayer...is Dawn truly innocent?

Buffy stabs Angel knowing he has returned to his soulful good guy self...was that wrong?

I agree that the slayer, that any of us, cannot live always second guessing our decisions. We act on the information we have, with the experience we have at the time, and where we are emotionally.

Buffy was not going to let her sister die, she'd lost a father, and a mother and a lover. I don't think she could have lived with herself had she let Dawn die, and certainly not if she'd killed Dawn herself. I mean, she's a hero, but she's human too.

And her experience killing Angel has changed her. She waffles on the issue in later seasons...willing to kill Anya, but not willing to kill Spike. And I do think with Spike, it was not JUST that she thought he could be useful to their cause, I think some of it was personal. That's OK, a hero without humanity is not a hero, they are a robot, a fighting machine, but NOT a hero.

To be a hero, one must feel, care, hurt, know the very human emotions and issues involved in what they are doing. If one is ignorant or unfeeling, then what they are doing is no sacrifice at all.

This is why my respect for Buffy is not altered by the fact that I think part of her was willing to end it. I don't think that was her main motivation for jumping into the portal. I don't think she was suicidal on a daily basis, but I do think that she was ready and willing to take death, be done with the pain of living and the constant fight of being a slayer. I don't think that lessens what she did.

Nor do I think less of Giles for smothering Ben. Yes, it was murder, in the strictest sense, but they were at war, whether it was a traditional one or not, and in wars people are called upon to do things they wouldn't do in an average day, to make decisions that they would not make in any other situation.

It's easier to see in an apolcolypse situation...to call what Buffy did, something other than a suicide mission, to justify Giles killing of Ben, to be understanding about Willow wanting to end all the pain humanity puts itself through, etc.

Spike sees Buffy's entire life as a mission, as a war. That is why he doesn't want her to turn herself in over Katrina. Why he tries to remind her of all the people who's lives she's saved and will save, and how this one is one unfortunate casualty. She can't hear it, but it resonates with some of the viewers. Looking at the bigger picture, while Buffy was looking from another perspective.

Spike had been around a long time, he'd been part of the battle of good and evil for over a century. He could see the value of what Buffy did on a scale that she could not yet see for herself. She accused him of not valuing Katrina's life, and in a sense he didn't, but not merely out of selfishness. He knows, having watched 5 generations live and die over the course of his own existence how cheap a single life is, how fleeting, how short and pained. The dead man is the one who repeatedly exhorts Buffy to live both her human and slayer lives to their fullest.

She can't hear him, but eventually she puts it together, through visions, meditations, experience, observations, she finally begins to understand her role as both slayer and human. And she finally is able to hear him, when he tells her he loves what she is, a hell of a woman.

People don't have to be perfect, or selfless, or totally of one mind to be a hero, but they MUST be human, they must allow themselves to feel and know, and try and fail and try again. If they are of one mind, we discount them, like the endless vampires that Buffy dusts, we don't feel sorry for them, because they feel only one motivation. We could not love and respect Buffy if her only motivation was the cause, if she never stumbled over her own misgivings, if she never wanted to give up, but kept on anyway.

I have a magnet on my fridge with this quote on it "No idols, no icons. Only blessedly fallible heroes are welcomed in this fragile reality."

I wrote that myself.

This is fabulous. I don't even know what to say... 🙂

 

[Angel's vision]

The difference between a slayer dying in battle and making a purposeful decision to die by their own terms are two very different things, and you can't possibly compare Buffy's death to the deaths of the slayers Spike killed or any of the others.

Buffy's death was heroic, so was the other's not counting the ones Spike killed.

And how is it SICK to suggest that she kill someone for the greater good? SICK would be if she just decided Dawn was annoying one day so she decided to act out Drew Barrymore's death in Scream on her...killing one to save many is not SICK...it's practical.

Practical you say? Motive whatever it is for doing so, (saving the world) doesn't make willingly killing an innocent to save the world RIGHT- If there was no other choice for Buffy than Dawn's sacrifce would of been right, and I'd like it to of been her choice. Not Buffy's. BUT Buffy chose to take her place, to save her. You come accross as taking pleasure in allowing an innocent to die to save the world.Sorry if that offends you. Maybe because you don't like Dawn. I fail to see what Buffy did as selfish. She put Dawn before her wellbeing, her life, how is that selfish?

Shall we rant at Doyle for sacrificing himself in AtS S1's "hero"? was he being selfish as well? He did do what Buffy did, same difference.
@ Joan the slayer- I get your point, what I was trying to say was I got the impression certain people in here think that Buffy should of let Dawn die because her life was more imp being the slayer, like some selfpreservation thingy. Therefore I thought that sick.

 

[PurplePoof]

Yes, all the slayers' deaths were heroic...but you're missing my point. The others (that we knew of) died in battle. Buffy wasn't killed by an arrow or a fist or a weapon...she WILLINGLY chose to jump into a portal that she knew would result in her death. It's NOT the same. There's a difference between people who were killed in the war in Iraq and people who chose to drown themselves in the bathtub after taking a lethal dose of sleeping pills.

You still haven't said anything that really refutes my point...you're just taking a more moralist position.

As for Doyle...no, he wasn't selfish. Why? Because he passed his power onto Cordelia...he wasn't depriving the world of a valuable resource by taking himself out of it.

 

[randiann]

And how is it SICK to suggest that she kill someone for the greater good? ....killing one to save many is not SICK...it's practical.

It's SICK because you are suggesting that Buffy KILL her sister, an innocent young teenage girl. That's not the Buffy I know and love. That's more like something Faith would do: push someone else in the way to save her own ass.

One question for people who consider Buffy's sacrifice a suicide: Is jumping in front of a bullet to save your child's life suicide? I would do it, that doesn't mean I want my life to end. I very much want to see my son grow up and grandkids and the whole shebang. But I would make the sacrifice to try and protect my child. Buffy's a martyr for what she did. She's a hero, because she is willing to give up her life for the lives of others.

You know, the Aztecs made human sacrifices too to appease their gods and keep their society safe. They killed people for what they believed would help their world. I think that's wrong, but maybe it'd cut down on global warming if we started sacrificing young girls to the Ozone God, or the God of carbon dioxide. Just a thought. And would the killing of these innocent young girls be sick? After all, it's to save the world.

Other analogy: The world's overpopulated. Let's kill all the people with AIDS, malaria, and marasmus (malnutrition), and the people who are too short (just for good measure), cause it'd alleviate our population problem. Yeah, we're talking about millions instead of just one, but it'd help "save the world". I'd still call it ethnocide. And sick.

I may be getting carried away here.....

 

[PurplePoof]

Again, this is an issue of addressing things I've already said...like a million times already...

Senseless homicide is SICK...killing an innocent to save the lives of a few billion other innocents is not SICK. What would have been SICK is if she'd let the world end to avoid killing Dawn, which is what her original bright idea was. Buffy was a slayer, and her life meant something to the world...Dawn was disposable in the greater scheme of things.

Which brings me to my next point...no, jumping in front of a bullet to save your child is not suicide. But that's an irrelevant comparison for a few reasons. 1) I don't perceive Buffy's death to be suicide because she chose to die instead of killing her sister...I see it as suicide based on the expression on her face and the fact I really think based on her earlier conversation with Giles that she was ready to leave the world. It's the mindset that makes me see it as a suicide...that's obviously not applicable to a mother shielding her child from a bullet. And your point about Buffy being a hero and martyr...I don't quite see it that way. She is a SLAYER...she has a DUTY to protect the world. Her death, while it may save the world, will NOT protect the lives of those that would die without her protection. I see this as an issue of looking out for the greater good, you see it in a much narrower scope. Yes, I know someone will bring up the fact that Faith is still around...but still...why have one slayer when you can have two? If Buffy had NO alternative but to jump, then I'd respect her decision...but she did have an alternative...an alternative in the form of a very annoying little girl.

I find your final points to indicate you're losing perspective a bit and switching the context. If an Ozone God DID exist...no, it would not be sick to sacrifice people to save the world.

The overpopulation issue has absolutely nothing to do with the SPECIFIC situation we saw in The Gift. That's way too broad of an issue and obviously wouldn't have the same stakes.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Good points, PP. I think people just have different reactions to this scene... *sigh We'll stick by our guns 🙂

 

[sk]

If Buffy had NO alternative but to jump, then I'd respect her decision...but she did have an alternative...an alternative in the form of a very annoying little girl.

I think you got to respect that in Buffy's mind there probably was no alternative. Sacrificing Dawn just wasn't an option for her.

/SK

 

[Sweetescape]

I watched a few of the clips on youtube...and its looks alright but i wouldn't go out and get the DVD. I Found the clip of James in a dress..its rather funny! 🙂

YouTube - Chance - Simon