The Slayer made the correct choice

[randiann]

Let me put it this way (to rephrase my overpopulation analogy, as I said, I was getting carried away there). Let's focus it in: AIDS is bad. AIDS is something pretty much every person would want to see eradicated, and the world would be better without it. We haven't found a cure to AIDS, but one way we can stop it is to eliminate its host population. This means killing millions of people, but effectively eliminates the disease. Should we do it? If the answer was yes, then parts of Africa and South Asia would already be wiped clean off the earth. But it's not right for us to kill innocent people to make our world better. We are not their judge and jury. We do not get to decide who lives and who dies.

Another situation: Jasmine brought world peace in S4 of Angel. The entire world was in a state of utopia. But this came at the expense of a dozen or so people a day. Was Jasmine right at sacrificing innocents for the betterment of the world, or was Angel & co. right at defeating her? In my opinion, what Jasmine was doing was morally wrong. Killing innocent people is morally WRONG. Bottom line. There is no gray area there. Killing people = BAD.

And this is why I love Buffy. She's a hero. For her, it's like SK73 said: there is no alternative. It's not selfish to sacrifice yourself to save the world. Hell, Spike did it and no one seems to question that, they just all sing his praises for how brave he was. Buffy jumping was not selfish, nor was it stupid or bad judgement. She didn't wimp out. She didn't quit. She won. She saved her sister's life and the world. She committed the ultimate act of bravery. That's why she is smiling is because she knows she won the battle and she saved her sister. Like I said, if she had pushed Dawn in or let her jump instead, she wouldn't be Buffy.

How you can argue that it is justifiable to kill innocent human beings is incomprehensible from my point of view. It's wrong. Pure and simple. We aren't in a place to decide life or death. Buffy knew this, it's part of what makes her so great. She has morals.

 

[Sweetescape]

what on earth? are my posts moving this has happened twice to me?! i didn't mean to post the thing about James Masters (that was supposed to be on the "chance thread in the character section!)

 

[PurplePoof]

randiann, we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. The AIDS issue is also irrelevent because people with AIDS are not guaranteed to pass on the illness. It's an issue that lacks the immediacy and the high stakes of the events in The Gift.

I just don't believe the life of a single innocent comes before the lives of a whole lot of other people. And I think for you to imply I lack morals based on this view is more than a little narrow-minded. I UNDERSTAND why you think the way you do...I just don't agree.

 

[randiann]

PP, that's why it's an alternate scenario and not an exact replica. Also, what about Jasmine? I still think that was wrong. And I didn't say that you lack morals, I said that Buffy's morality is what prevents her from killing an innocent person when she has an alternative. I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I in no way fault Buffy for saving her sister's life. I think it was heroic and brave, not senseless and stupid. I think Buffy made the right choice.

 

[caitaintdead]

Can't give you karma again randiann, but very well said!

 

[cryptwarmer]

What about a mother with five kids who's pregnant with twins? does she jump in front of a bullet to save one and leave the others without a mother and cause the death of the two in utero?

Interesting questions...the thing is, when any of us, or Buffy are in a situation..we can't always see the big picture, don't have the time or mental resources to suss it all out. Buffy did what she did at that point for a lot of complex reasons. In similar situations other heroes, including her, made different decisions.

The hero can't address all aspects of a situation at the same time, so they address the one that is most apparent to them at the time. Buffy had been told by the monks and her mother to protect Dawn, that Dawn is innocent, etc. She'd watched Dawn suffer emotionally, and at that point Dawn was her priority, over the big bad stupid world that if she saved today would just have another drama to address tomorrow. And to sacrifice herself, because...she knew very well that if she didn't, chances were good that she'd die in the next battle...so why not do the right thing today?

She was tired, depressed, and feeling a bit hopeless. Had just came out of a catatonic state. I do think there was an element of "calgon...take me away" in her sacrifice...let the world be someone else's problem now.

Killing Dawn was not an option to Buffy at that time. It wasn't within her to do on that day, given her emotional state. It may have seemed like an option to an outside observer, but Buffy didn't have that perspective, at that time.

I suppose the mother would jump in front of the bullet, she wouldn't think about sacrificing one child for the others, she wouldn't even see it that way, it wouldn't even occur to her. Even when Giles suggested it, it didn't compute.

Like...I wouldn't kill my dog for a million bucks...but I'd do in the neighbor's for free the nights when it keeps me up barking...well, not really, but you see what I mean?

at that point in time, sacrificing Dawn was not an option to Buffy, but sacrificing herself...might have seemed more inviting than usual.

 

[Relic]

^^^^ see, the one big problem I have with this whole 'calgon take me away' is that no one ever knew where calgone was going to take her. I'm getting the general feeling by others posts that they believe that Buffy views her suicide as a reprieve, a rest of sorts. that she graciously bowed out while saving her sister.

We of course know that Buffy did have rest, that she was in heaven, but do you think when she jumped thats where she believed she would end up? (keep in mind the last person that she knew that was 'killed' was sucked into a hell dimension.) Portals are funny things and like Willow initialy believed...Buffy's end might not be her end...so to speak.

I don't think she jumped to be done with it all. For that matter, I'm not even convinced that she knew she would be able to 'rest' even when she jumped. She did know that she was saving her sister and world though, and where ever she would end up, she would still be Buffy.

That destination might afford her a well deserved rest or it might mean an uphill fight through the hordes of hell, her destination was uncertain.

What was certain was she knew her loved ones were safe thanks to her, thats a thing worth smiling about.

 

[PurplePoof]

I don't know Relic, it's that smile that does it for me.

 

[LittleBit]

I think you got to respect that in Buffy's mind there probably was no alternative. Sacrificing Dawn just wasn't an option for her.

/SK

Yep.
I think after all she went through Buffy is exhausted in many ways, and don't forget she is ALSO a loving sister.
At that point, she knows she has always done all she could to protect the world but this time she's going to to do what feels right in her heart, and killing her beloved, innocent sister (by whatever action or "inaction") isn't going to be included.
Simple as that: if the world *demands* such an action from her, then the world deserves no saving: she'd rather die with her sister in her arms, not betraying the person she loves the most.
Others will be free to do the same with *their* beloved ones.

I can relate to that.

And I think that, no matter what she says in S7, if actually put in the same position Buffy couldn't still be the cause of Dawn's death.
That's what emerged (and what I loved) from the Gift.

 

[Kelsey]

I have a hard time understanding the basis of the argument against Buffy's decision. I mean, I do understand it, but the idea that Buffy could talk her sister into jumping off of a tower just goes against everything Buffy is. Regardless of whether or not you liked Dawn, from Buffy's standpoint the girl was her sister. The words she used to describe Dawn, as a "part of herself," show the deep love and affection she holds for her sister. I can't imagine that it would have been more heroic for Buffy to push Dawn into the portal. More practical, I will concede to, but if Buffy had done that, how could we love her anymore?

I was actually very... proud of her, during the Gift.

 

[LittleBit]

Yep, and the authors did want to get us focused on a concept.

The monks chose to make the key into the Slayer's sister so that she would be willing to "protect it (the key) with her life".
Buffy *does* sacrifice herself, but only for her sister, since her "key role" has been played out already at that point.

Everything else was secondary, storywise (imho).

 

[sapientiapaucis]

Earlier, someone mentioned that Buffy went to face the Master in "Prophecy Girl" knowing that she would die, but I don't think the situation is analogous because she thought that she had to go to prevent his rising and that she would be killed in the process; she had no idea that it was her going that would free him. With Dawn, until that last-second revelation, she knew that if she couldn't stop the portal from opening, it would destroy the world if she didn't stop the blood from flowing. Besides, she had no guarantees that Dawn would stop being the Key once the portal closed... for all she knew, a month after her funeral, some other Big Bad could come along and try the same thing, with no active Slayer to intercede.

I also have a problem with Buffy's decision to save Dawn at all costs because she justifies it with "then the last she'll see is me protecting her"... so, now it's okay to end the world for one person's sake? That's incredibly selfish, and it would end up protecting no one. If she sacrificed Angel -- as far as she knew, she had killed him -- then I don't see why it would be out of character to sacrifice Dawn. When she first discovered that Dawn was the Key, she stopped thinking of her as a sister (albeit briefly); I don't see why she couldn't get back into that mindset.

Also, it would have been more compelling television. When we learned that Buffy had been picked up for a sixth season, it was a given that she was going to be resurrected. If Dawn had died, they still could have made s6 all gloom and doom all the time, with Buffy guilty that she killed someone who she felt was her sister, even though she knew the memories were fake, and they would have had a less predictable season opener and they'd be down one incredibly annoying character.

 

[Angel's vision]

With Dawn, until that last-second revelation, she knew that if she couldn't stop the portal from opening, it would destroy the world if she didn't stop the blood from flowing. Besides, she had no guarantees that Dawn would stop being the Key once the portal closed... for all she knew, a month after her funeral, some other Big Bad could come along and try the same thing, with no active Slayer to intercede.

There was no guaranties that any big bad would know of or find use of Dawn opening the portal again.

had[/i] killed him -- then I don't see why it would be out of character to sacrifice Dawn. When she first discovered that Dawn was the Key, she stopped thinking of her as a sister (albeit briefly); I don't see why she couldn't get back into that mindset.

Also, it would have been more compelling television. When we learned that Buffy had been picked up for a sixth season, it was a given that she was going to be resurrected. If Dawn had died, they still could have made s6 all gloom and doom all the time, with Buffy guilty that she killed someone who she felt was her sister, even though she knew the memories were fake, and they would have had a less predictable season opener and they'd be down one incredibly annoying character.

Two things I've noticed one "So now it's ok to end the world for one person's sake" , Buffy CLOSED the portal by sacrificing herself saving the world and not having to kill Dawn. Two birds one stone, two, every person I have noticed saying Buffy should of killed Dawn LIKE to see her dead because they don't like her. Hence they argue that she should of jumped.

There are no guaranties that a big bad wont come and cause trouble once a slayer has died in battle before another shows up. Buffy wasn't told by the Watcher's council to move to sunnydale, it was by Pure chance she went there, otherwise it was Slayerless.

 

[sapientiapaucis]

Two things I've noticed one "So now it's ok to end the world for one person's sake" , Buffy CLOSED the portal by sacrificing herself saving the world and not having to kill Dawn. Two birds one stone, two, every person I have noticed saying Buffy should of killed Dawn LIKE to see her dead because they don't like her. Hence they argue that she should of jumped.

I'll admit that I think Dawn was a worthless character, and that definitely plays into my perceptions. But it also bothers me a great deal that Buffy told Giles that she was willing to let the world end if she had to kill Dawn to prevent it. She didn't say the same thing about Angel in "Becoming." She didn't want to kill Dark Willow at the end of S6, but she never ruled the possibility out so firmly. I don't see why it was okay for her to shirk her Slayer responsibilities during this apocalypse just because Dawn was her sister.

And if she had definitely known, prior to the tower scene, that her blood would have worked, then I would have minded less. Writing a scene where she learns that would have justified the decision to me since it wouldn't have been the first time she consciously sacrificed herself, and seeing it succeed in "The Gift" would have been an interesting counterpoint to "Prophecy Girl."

 

[cryptwarmer]

I don't know Relic, it's that smile that does it for me.

Yup, and she understood at that point her purpose, that death was her gift and not to fear it. She'd had that vision and all. I do think she knew she wasn't jumping into hell.

 

[fly on the wall]

But it also bothers me a great deal that Buffy told Giles that she was willing to let the world end if she had to kill Dawn to prevent it. She didn't say the same thing about Angel in "Becoming." She didn't want to kill Dark Willow at the end of S6, but she never ruled the possibility out so firmly. I don't see why it was okay for her to shirk her Slayer responsibilities during this apocalypse just because Dawn was her sister.

There's a big difference, in Buffy's mind, and in my personal opinion, between her boyfriends, her friends, and the only living un-estranged family member she has left. The death of her mother was still very much raw (her mother who, by the way, she'd promised before her death that she would take care of Dawn).
Angel was a vampire who occasionally went evil and killed people. Yes, she loved him, but there it is. Dark Willow (who I never got the impression that she hadn't "never ruled the possibility of killing her so firmly"...she was very much opposed to killing Willow) was also killing people. Neither of them are as innocent as Dawn is. Neither of them need her protection. Neither of them are her blood relatives. Buffy pretty much became Dawn's mother after the death of Joyce, and I can't see any mother chucking her baby off that tower, either.
Just because she was willing to kill Angel doesn't mean she should have been willing to kill Dawn. The situations aren't the same at all.

Earlier, someone mentioned that Buffy went to face the Master in "Prophecy Girl" knowing that she would die, but I don't think the situation is analogous because she thought that she had to go to prevent his rising and that she would be killed in the process; she had no idea that it was her going that would free him. With Dawn, until that last-second revelation, she knew that if she couldn't stop the portal from opening, it would destroy the world if she didn't stop the blood from flowing. Besides, she had no guarantees that Dawn would stop being the Key once the portal closed... for all she knew, a month after her funeral, some other Big Bad could come along and try the same thing, with no active Slayer to intercede.

Oh, when I said that about Buffy going to meet the Master, I wasn't taking into account that she actually freed him by doing that, because of course she didn't know. All I meant was, that was self-sacrifice, too. She knew she was going to die. But she accepted it. I brought that point up for the people who view her sacrifice in The Gift as selfish (because the world would be left without a Slayer). In S1, for all she knew she was going to die, leaving her friends and Sunnydale vulnerable, but I've never heard people call her sacrifice there "selfish." Maybe because it was prophecized? Who knows.

Also, it would have been more compelling television. When we learned that Buffy had been picked up for a sixth season, it was a given that she was going to be resurrected. If Dawn had died, they still could have made s6 all gloom and doom all the time, with Buffy guilty that she killed someone who she felt was her sister, even though she knew the memories were fake, and they would have had a less predictable season opener and they'd be down one incredibly annoying character.

And I'll stand by my opinion that if Buffy had let Dawn die, she wouldn't be our Buffy. Whether or not you would have been happy to see Dawn jump. Had Buffy just stood there and watched her go, she wouldn't have been the same woman at all.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

When Spike told her, in "Fool For Love", that she was a little in "love" with death, that death was her art, and that "Every Slayer has a death wish" - he was right and she knew it. Of course she is fascinated with death. It's with her every day, on her shoulders. Death and violence is a huge part of her life. Her calling is too kill.

Spike was forshadowing the choice she would have to make in "The Gift". Yes, she jumped for Dawn, to selflessly save her and to save the world - but a part of her wanted it. A part of her embraced it. She wanted peace, to rest - she wanted to be "complete" as she says in "Afterlife."

She wanted to be done.

Yes, she made the "correct" choice in the sense that it was only one that she, as Buffy, could have made. Was it the right one? Well, we can disagree on that.

 

[Kelsey]

I'll admit that I think Dawn was a worthless character, and that definitely plays into my perceptions. But it also bothers me a great deal that Buffy told Giles that she was willing to let the world end if she had to kill Dawn to prevent it. She didn't say the same thing about Angel in "Becoming." She didn't want to kill Dark Willow at the end of S6, but she never ruled the possibility out so firmly. I don't see why it was okay for her to shirk her Slayer responsibilities during this apocalypse just because Dawn was her sister.

I think you have to factor in her mindset, though. Buffy felt like she was becoming darker and more cut-off with every crisis; she was scared of what her Slayer powers were doing to her. Dawn was not only her sister, but made out of her, and I think Dawn was the one part of herself that Buffy was sure of anymore. Maybe the declaration to defend Dawn until the end of the world was selfish, but I can see where she's coming from. And ultimately, she died to save Dawn and the world, so she did her duty.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I think you have to factor in her mindset, though. Buffy felt like she was becoming darker and more cut-off with every crisis; she was scared of what her Slayer powers were doing to her. Dawn was not only her sister, but made out of her, and I think Dawn was the one part of herself that Buffy was sure of anymore. Maybe the declaration to defend Dawn until the end of the world was selfish, but I can see where she's coming from. And ultimately, she died to save Dawn and the world, so she did her duty.

Yeah, I think that Buffy felt that by killing Dawn she would be killing a part of herself. She wasn't ready to do that. At the end of the day, despite the difficult choices the Slayer has to make, she's only human. She really does love Dawn more than anyone. She also wante dto keep her promise to her mother to protect her.

 

[sapientiapaucis]

Had Buffy just stood there and watched her go, she wouldn't have been the same woman at all.

That's a good point.

I think I object more to her decision to jump as a matter of storytelling than character: because the writers never succeeded in making me, as a viewer, care about Dawn the way they did with Angel or Willow (I've never thought she was written well enough for me to consider her first a sister then a plot point), Buffy's determination to save her regardless of the cost strikes me as hollow.