The souls of humans turned into vampires

[SnoopDoug]

This isn't an issue touched upon in either Buffy or Angel, so the question has more to do with your own personal canon. What happens to the souls of humans who are turned into vampires? Do they experience a heaven or hell dimension, only bodiless, or do they exist in a state of limbo? The only clue from Buffy that I can gather is that before Buffy is brought back from the dead at the beginning of S6, her soul was in heaven, but she died of a mystical death (not a natural one) and she wasn't turned into a vampire. Moreover, when Angel and Spike got their souls back, they didn't seem to recall any heaven or hell experiences.

Any theories?

 

[Buffy Summers]

I think for me, I just sort of assume it works the same way as if the person had died. I think I consider the person they were to be dead now. *shrugs*

🙂

 

[SnoopDoug]

So would you say that the souls of Angel and Spike were annihilated at their deaths, and then brought back into being? Or, are you saying that their souls enter an afterlife of some sort and are simply put back into their earthly bodies? I just want to make sure I understand what you mean by "dead."

 

[Buffy Summers]

Well, what I mean is that whatever you think happens after death to souls, that's what I think happened to Angel & Spike's human souls. So the souls went on to the afterlife, and when they were "re-ensouled" it came back from wherever that was.

🙂

 

[brinkster130]

I always assumed a vampires soul sorta existed in limbo rather than moving on to another place but I don't really have any facts to back that up. I just figured if Angel or Spikes soul went to another place we would have heard about it at some point in the show.

I have heard some interesting theories about the soul Spike received in s6 not being his actual soul but a random one that the demon gave him.

 

[Kana]

I assumed they went to the 'Ether'. This is where Angel's soul is when he is Angelus. It appears to be a limbo or caught between existence and non-existence.

Angelus: I heard. You went shopping at the local boogedy-boogedy store.
(sees the Orb on her desk and picks it up) The Orb of Thesulah. If
memory serves, this is supposed to summon a person's soul... from the
ether... store it until it can be transferred.

If the Orb was used first time round to restore Angel's soul then it's likely all vampires souls go there.

 

[Evil Angelus 95]

In limbo, at least that's what I think.

I did write a fic once (veering into personal canon now) where Buffy was sired by Angelus in "Becoming", and her Soul was basically trapped inside her body because she was a Slayer.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Yeah it's an interesting topic cuz there aren't a lot of of facts.

When they say soul on the show, I think there's two part to it. Firstly the personality, and the secondly the conscious, I think both make up the person.

My personal cannon on this, that I get from stuff said over the course of the shows is that to move on both parts have to move on. Like when Buffy died her personality and conscious moved on, but for Angel and spike, their personality is still in them, they dont move on, their stuck inside the vampire and that forms part of the vampire. The conscious goes to the ether and can't move on, cuz a conscious doesn't rest.

When Giles in killed in season 8, his soul gets stuck becasue of Eyghon, I think the vampire causes a similar thing to happen.

 

[NY State of Mind]

The Buffyverse does a good job of avoiding much of afterlife talk. For good reason i'm sure cause it gives the ability for people to put their own belief spin on it. I remember Buffy talking about being feeling warm and comforted or something like that. You can think that was Heaven or look at it as an "Ether" which i'm not sure means a limbo but just a place where the souls rest. I don't think theres differences how you die. I see death as death and the souls going to the same place. I could see a bad soul going to a hell kind of plane but as far as people being killed by magic, vamps, or a gunshot I think that be pushing it too far if they go to different places. I view ghosts as stuck in a limbo if anything. If peoples souls were stuck in a limbo from vampires then I think it would give Buffy even a greater duty though

 

[Kana]

Yeah, when I talk about the two main theories of vamprism, the soul can either refer to the spirit, i.e. the immaterial consciousness of the individual or the conscience for want of a better word. Under my 'theory 2' the spirit remains and gives the vampire a sense of 'continued consciousness', which is why Angel and Spike, more consistently say "I did this, or I did that" when talking about their soulless counterpart.

Either way, we know that Angel's soul is in the Ether when he is Angelus, so I'd still contend that whatever the soul is, that's where it goes. I'd assume that when the vampire is dusted, their soul then goes to an actual afterlife, or under the soul=conscience theory, the soul is reunited with the spirit and it all goes to the afterlife.

Also there is this.

WILLOW:... Like, its consciousness is here, but, but its body is caught in the ether between existing and not existing.

So it's possible she is talking about the same Ether. So I think a sort of limbo is correct.

 

[NY State of Mind]

I'm still not convinced a part of the person is stuck inside the body owned by the vampire. I look at it as the memories and history of the brain functioning in certain patterns that makes the vampire similar to the person. Its like an actor playing another person. If youre in the mindstate and have thoughts another person has then you're going to act accordingly. Maybe vamps like Angelus go so far to exterminate the family to distance and cut themselves off from that human info still in the body, but thats all I see it as..info. And just like people i'm sure not all demons are exactly alike

 

[Kana]

NY State of Mind agrees: Yeah but wasn't Angelus cursed..im not sure if we could use him as a main example

He was was cursed but the Orb of Thessela was used to curse him. This can be used to summon a soul from the Ether. Now if this Orb was used in the first place to curse Angelus (and it's implied from the flashbacks that it is) then one assumes that Angel's soul went there in the first place when he was turned.

I'm still not convinced a part of the person is stuck inside the body owned by the vampire. I look at it as the memories and history of the brain functioning in certain patterns that makes the vampire similar to the person.

For the sake of diplomacy, I accept both theories of vampirism. Theory 1 is where the soul is the spirit and when a vampire is turned, the demon takes over their body and memories but it's not them. When re-ensoulled, the soul takes over the body.

Theory 2 however posits that when a human is turned into a vampire, their spirit remains, (e.g. Liam and Angelus are the same 'numerical individual'.) however their conscience disappears to the Ether. When re ensoulled they remember their actions with a conscience (under this theory the curse and the general storylines involving Spike and Angel tend to make a little more sense).

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'm still not convinced a part of the person is stuck inside the body owned by the vampire. I look at it as the memories and history of the brain functioning in certain patterns that makes the vampire similar to the person. Its like an actor playing another person. If youre in the mindstate and have thoughts another person has then you're going to act accordingly. Maybe vamps like Angelus go so far to exterminate the family to distance and cut themselves off from that human info still in the body, but thats all I see it as..info. And just like people i'm sure not all demons are exactly alike

Yeah I think this is how the show set it up, but they never stuck to it consistently, there was a number of things they say later that doesn't jibe with that.

Like in Orpheus (I think?) how Angel and Angelus fight each other in Angelus mind, technically Angel should have been in the ether so that shouldn't have been possible (Faith was there through magic)
Also isn't there a number of times were Angel talks about Angelus like he's been sitting inside Angelus watching everything that happens but powerless to do anything, or is that how Angelus described it only?

 

[Kana]

Yeah I think this is how the show set it up, but they never stuck to it consistently, there was a number of things they say later that doesn't jibe with that.

Like in Orpheus (I think?) how Angel and Angelus fight each other in Angelus mind, technically Angel should have been in the ether so that shouldn't have been possible (Faith was there through magic)
Also isn't there a number of times were Angel talks about Angelus like he's been sitting inside Angelus watching everything that happens but powerless to do anything, or is that how Angelus described it only?

Exactly. When Angel first starts interacting with Angelus and Faith, I believe the soul is the Muo Ping, which is impervious to magic.

It could be part of the hell Angelus is going through, or maybe simply Angel is still a part of him, soul or not (just like Spike's humanity) but Angelus is better at suppressing it, without his soul.

As the last part, I only remember it described as if Angelus is inside Angel, but powerless to act. Under theory 1 this is literal, under theory 2 it's figurative.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

I think that because a vampire is a demon (for want of a better term the vampire is an 'agent' of the devil). The devil gets use of the soul, as it seems to be a source of power (see the first film Ghost Rider).
Though that doesn't mean it is consumed, merely that it is there which would allow for Angelus to be made Angel.
As for the any theories, I stick to my theory that the Powers That Be, the Oracles etc: were merely agents for God and that the Vampire Slayer was God's creation (even when I write fan fic that is so).
So if Buffy was Gods special creation then she would have priviligies, and knowing that she was in heaven would seem normal to her.
Would an angel know if she or he was once in heaven?

 

[white avenger]

Assuming that Angel's and Spike's souls had, when they died, gone on to whatever reward or punishment they had earned in their mortal life, then reinstating their souls would seem to get into the same "ripped out of heaven (or hell)" situation that Buffy was in during Season 6. If so, then part of the initial shock of getting their souls back could be attributed to that, but neither Angel nor Spike have ever mentioned any sort of memories of an afterlife.

Something that may work better is that possibly a part of the turning process in which, at the point of death, a human is given the blood of a vampire, is the trapping of the human soul in ether, limbo, purgatory, or whatever it might be called, and doesn't actually complete its transition to the Eternal Resting Place until the vampire is destroyed. That might even be tied into the whole immortality thing with vampires. Until their soul is actually released, the body doesn't age or deteriorate. In that case, Angel's and Spike's souls were not ripped out of heaven the way that Buffy's was, because their souls had never been allowed to pass over, and still haven't and won't until they are either dusted or returned to human form, and in the latter case, they would begin to age normally once more.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

If peoples souls were stuck in a limbo from vampires then I think it would give Buffy even a greater duty though

That would have been a really cool idea to explore if we've found that out in one of the later seasons. It would have made being a vampire a lot worse and it would have made Buffy even more of a hero

NY State of Mind agrees: For them to mention Giles soul is stuck tells me the opposite since they brought it up vs when they mention vamps

They only really mention its stuck cuz it's split into multiple pieces. But the interesting part is Giles has memories of being a soul, as did Buffy in a way being able to remember heaven. Whereas the only thing Spike and Angel seem to remember is being part of the demon.

It could be part of the hell Angelus is going through, or maybe simply Angel is still a part of him, soul or not (just like Spike's humanity) but Angelus is better at suppressing it, without his soul.

Yeah this is exactly it for me.

Something that may work better is that possibly a part of the turning process in which, at the point of death, a human is given the blood of a vampire, is the trapping of the human soul in ether, limbo, purgatory, or whatever it might be called, and doesn't actually complete its transition to the Eternal Resting Place until the vampire is destroyed. That might even be tied into the whole immortality thing with vampires. Until their soul is actually released, the body doesn't age or deteriorate. In that case, Angel's and Spike's souls were not ripped out of heaven the way that Buffy's was, because their souls had never been allowed to pass over, and still haven't and won't until they are either dusted or returned to human form, and in the latter case, they would begin to age normally once more.

I like that theory about immortality