The Spuffy Question

[Grace]

I wanted to respond to @EarthLogic's really interesting post about Spuffy in the 30 Days of Bangel thread, but a Bangel appreciation thread did not seem to be the place to get into the merits of Spuffy! Here is @EarthLogic's full post over in that thread: 30 Days of Bangel - pt2

I feel like this thread could be a good place to discuss some of the deeper parts of Spuffy that may appeal even if we don't ship it, and to give anyone else who wanted to discuss @EarthLogic's post a place to do it.

Shadow Self: One reading of Spuffy I do find really interesting is the Jungian idea of Spike, like Faith, functioning as Buffy's shadow-self, forcing her to confront then reconcile the darker side of her Slayerness. This is an idea I actually like and it's one of the reasons I think Spike's function, at least symbolically, in Buffy's story in S6 is intriguing.

Spike's symbolic role as part of Buffy is one of the reasons that I really appreciate Spuffy in Season 7, even if the romantic side of things tends to leave me cold. I've been thinking about Spike in Season 7 as a representation of Buffy's singular slayer power, which she was overrelying on ("manos" cut off from heart, mind and spirit - the other core Scoobies). I thought that was why she was so angry about having to carry everyone, because she and everyone else were relying on her power to save them and it kept not being enough. ("I'm afraid it falls to you, Buffy. Sorry. I mean, we'll do what we can, but you're the only one who has the strength to protect these girls -- and the world -- against what's coming.")

Out of the core group, the person Buffy consistently sided with was Spike. She kept saying over and over that he was the strongest fighter and she seemed to know she’d need him to win. But, ultimately, it wasn’t his fighting power that she needed — it was the goodness that existed in souled Spike. In the end, she needed him to give her strength to overcome her struggle with her heart, mind and spirit, and then to take out the Hellmouth. Just in the same way that it wasn’t Buffy alone that ultimately saved the day — it was her giving power to others. She applied the same lesson to the potentials that she learned with Dawn in Season 6. It wasn't about protecting them, it was about empowering them.

The Spuffy metaphor in Season 6 is a little more mixed for me, since Spike in the role of dark slayer side is rejected by Buffy, then hurts her deeply and leaves, and the end of the season focuses on her reconciling with her humanity in Dawn. (In contrast, while Buffy rejects Faith in Season 3 and sticks a knife in her gut, we see Dream Faith help her and it feels more like Buffy is reconciling that part of herself.) I guess it makes sense to take Seasons 6 and 7 as one longer piece -- Buffy rejecting her darker slayer side and embracing her humanity plays out in concert with the darker side being imbued with humanity (Spike getting a soul) -- but I'd like to hear more of your take on Spike's symbolic role in S6/S7, since I'm not really sure about any of this.

(As a side note, I came across a really interesting meta about Dead Things the other day that positions Spike as a metaphor for Death in Buffy's depression arc. I want to go back and read the whole series. I also like the concept explored here that, for Buffy, Spike was initially a tool for self-harm -- like a knife used for cutting -- and in Dead Things she finally realizes that Spike really does have feelings for her, even if they are twisted, and it's wrong to treat him like a tool.)

Anyway, most of my other humanity-related arguments on this have been made before by myself and others so I'm not going to go over them too much, but I want to add that if demon-can-do-good-things-out-of-choice Spike is presented as a sort of 'base self' which develops, gets a soul then is complete, then it would mean that Angel's base self is Angelus. This would then undermine his entire journey since everything he does would just be a futile denial of his true 'evil' self which doesn't want to be redeemed. Which would mean I wasted a lot of my time watching AtS.

Switching topics completely, and piggybacking on this, the Spike vs. Angel talking point that infuriates me the most is the idea that some people are inherently good and some people are inherently bad (setting aside disorders and illnesses that may influence behavior). The argument that William had some fixed trait of goodness that came through in the demon, while Liam was a waste of humanity and thus the perfect vampire just makes me insane. William and Liam were both people with the capacity for goodness and badness who had different lives and different personalities and made different choices. Liam made some bad ones. That doesn't make him evil (at least, I don't think we see any evidence of that) or worthless (Angel himself argued that Liam was young and could have turned his life around, which I also think is very possible).

And in the event that I did accept that some people are inherently good and some people inherently evil, then to me that makes Spike worse and Angel better. Because if Spike was somehow always good and chose to ignore it, that's less admirable to me than someone who is always bad fighting to be good. But I don't ever want to accept that argument because it would mean, as you say @EarthLogic, that Angel fighting for redemption would be futile for reasons outside his control (he just happened to be born evil or whatever).

 

[EarthLogic]

I guess it makes sense to take Seasons 6 and 7 as one longer piece -- Buffy rejecting her darker slayer side and embracing her humanity plays out in concert with the darker side being imbued with humanity (Spike getting a soul) -- but I'd like to hear more of your take on Spike's symbolic role in S6/S7, since I'm not really sure about any of this.

Yes I've been thinking about this too. Where Buffy's arc is concerned the two seasons might work best as two halves of one overall arc. Unfortunately they're still problematic in their handling of the rest of the Scoobies' storylines.

As a side note, I came across a really interesting meta about Dead Things

Oh that blog - that was where I found the B/A 'fantasy' meta which I didn't like, which of course descended into bashing in the comments, but I might go back to it on your suggestion

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I would say Spike has plenty of spiritus and animus, but until S7, he completely lacks sophus. The chip takes away quite a bit of his manus.

I think Spike can best be described as humanity chiselled down to the bear bones of it - humanity without the inhibitions and sophistication of society. When Buffy comes back, she is almost like a shell. She needs to become more like Spike is, but Spike represents something that is dangerous and uncontrollable, so she cannot give herself to it completely.

The argument that William had some fixed trait of goodness that came through in the demon, while Liam was a waste of humanity and thus the perfect vampire just makes me insane.

I would actually argue that if William had not been sired by Drusilla, it is not unlikely that he could have found himself a "Harmony" to symbolically take his revenge out on Cecily. We don't see any proof to his claim that he is indeed a "good man".

Edit: Damn! Sorry! I did not realise this was in the Close Your Eyes section.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I have also found it interesting to note that Spuffy and that dynamic is often examined in academic circles and especially celebrated for its complexity. I do not necessarily disagree with these assessments. It is a very complex relationship. That does not make it a good or positive relationship it makes it - just that - complex and intriguing.

I am very interested in Buffy's journey. That's why I'm here. I bought the ticket to the Buffy train and I'm going down with it even if it crashes and burns and that is what happens in s6. And the journey in season 6 is compelling, including the Spuffy stuff. This is a side of Buffy we have never seen before this point. To comment on some of the items that you all discussed:

- Complex development - which I put down to circumstances of writing: Spuffy has the pure advantage of coming in the later seasons, by when the show's writing had matured in certain ways. Although I think seasons 6 and 7 have far more glaring weaknesses than the earlier ones, the very fact that they are late gave the writers greater opportunity for establishing retroactive continuity and layering of ideas, which enabled a slower development over 4 seasons. The dialogue is also tighter overall. You can see things like the words 'beneath you' from S5 coming back in S7, obviously the idea of slayers and death comes back in S6 and is explored primarily via Spuffy. Basically by the time actual Spuffy came along in S6, they had five seasons worth of ideas to draw and expand on.

I agree wholeheartedly on this point to the extent that we are discussing S5/6, I'm not on board with this assessment in s7 because the writing to me was incredibly and wildly inconsistent. But I thought the Season 6 writing in particular in the troughs of the Spuffy hook ups were incredibly well developed on an individual episode level. To me what was missing in s6 was the Joss like overreaching arc we got in s2-5 where each little building block gives way to the bigger picture story. But a great deal of that is in great deal attributed to, as you say, the show has the ability to reach back into s2-5 and use the groundwork laid to give us individual character development.

Let me be clear. For purposes of a character development, for purposes of a life experience, for purposes of learning a lesson about self and sex, about depression, about darkness - I appreciate Spuffy. It serves it's purpose for Buffy to grow and learn from, to become more empowered by it (all except for the A/R which I will touch upon later). To show Buffy go through depression, to show her battle her darkness, to show her stumble into a deeply troubling relationship are realities that some people actually do deal with. I have said in other parts of this board that I personally have dealt with similar issues. Both Buffy and Angel deal with darkness and hopelessness and make questionable decisions in relationships as a result of it and I think that is a wonderful concept to explore.

Where the writers lose me is post Hells Bells. To me, Hells Bells is Buffy saying - you know what that Spike thing was bad, it was a phase and I'm going to overcome it. I could see some of the old Buffy coming back she felt a bit lighter. But Buffy is never allowed to truly overcome the Spike relationship. She is never able to sever ties with him or move on from him. If you are going to drag my hero in the mud, then I want to see her overcome. Overcome her depression, her abusive relationship, I want to see her renew her healthy relationships with her close friends and family. Late s6 and s7 do none of these things. Buffy remains alienated, alone, and she ends up having to deal with the guilt associated with Spikelus' decision to go and get a soul for her (something she never asked for).

I'm not going to get into an indepth discussion with the A/R it's all been done before. Suffice it to say that the reason I'm saying I appreciate Spuffy is because of the journey and lessons that could have been gained for Buffy. I am not personally invested in Spike's character development, and I'm certainly not invested in his character development when my heroine is used as a plot device for it. That is what the A/R is to me and that is why I don't think it was necessary to Buffy's journey. At the end of the day we saw little to no impact of the A/R to Buffy's character. Whether that is right, believable, etc is besides the point. I'm on the Buffy train, not the Spike train.

I guess it makes sense to take Seasons 6 and 7 as one longer piece -- Buffy rejecting her darker slayer side and embracing her humanity plays out in concert with the darker side being imbued with humanity (Spike getting a soul) -- but I'd like to hear more of your take on Spike's symbolic role in S6/S7, since I'm not really sure about any of this.

In keeping with what I said above, I think this is where the writers lost me. @Grace we talked on B/R how Mark Fields talks about how Cordy was Buffy's shadow self until Homecoming. She sheds that shaddow self when she embraces her calling, that being a slayer is a part of who she is and by the time we get to Helpless we know that Buffy isn't going back to being a Spordelia. Then she confronts Faith who is, as you say, meant to show her the darker side to being a slayer and whether Buffy is willing to kill her to save Angel, to take a life. Buffy is confronted by Faith in the dream who appears to give her strength. Ultimately, if Faith was a metaphor for power corrupted, or power left unchecked (And Buffy is Spiderman - with great power comes great responsibility), Faith appropriately gets her punishment by turning herself into jail. The lesson learned from Faith is resolved.

If Buffy in Season 7 was meant to be embracing her humanity, I'm sorry but I didn't get the memo. Buffy in Season 7 was more slayer than ever before. If that was the idea for the execution of the metaphor, over overcoming the darkness of the Slayer and embracing her humanity, then in my opinion it was not relayed in the writing or on the screen.

- 'Realness' or 'adultness' - I think this is linked to the point above. These two concepts tend to be equated with 'complexity'. It's real because its complex and messy. While I don't agree - a lot of my friends are in stable long-term relationships with their first boyfriends and I haven't seen anything so conflict-ridden amongst anyone I know (then again no-one I know has ever been thwarted by a gypsy curse either!) - I get the attraction to a story which explores a tense shifting dynamic between two adults.

I want to argue both for and against this point simultaneously lol. I just had a conversation with someone on tumblr about this. It was a Bangel fan and she said that Bangel was never allowed to be adult. And I guess the crux of this is - what constitutes "adult." Post - s3 return, I think Bangel was dealing with mature concepts that go way beyond that of a normal teenager's life. It was messy, it was complicated, there were issues of death (Buffy killing Angel) and suicide (Angel attempting suicide) and sex (dealing with the urges they both had) and ultimately dealing with the problems of dating an immortal (a topic which Buffy seems to have forgotten about in the Comics?). Yes, Buffy wants Angel to go to the prom but aside from that very little of it is "teen." What I do agree with is that the issues that Buffy and Angel deal with separately in s6 BtVS and s3 AtS feel more like the kinds of things that young (or even older) adults deal with. That is situational. Buffy has lost her mom and has Dawn to take care of, you have essentially given Buffy a daughter. Angel now has a son in Connor. The fact that both of them have become parents, have responsibilities of running a household, taking care of baby/teen as well as fulfilling their sacred duties means they are in uncharted grown up territory. And therefore, whoever each of them are in a relationship with (or trying to start a relationship and failing miserably at it - see Cangel) (or having sex with - see Spuffy) will undoubtedly feel more adult. That is a more a product of the setting and less a commentary on the relationship itself.

 

[Grace]

If Buffy in Season 7 was meant to be embracing her humanity, I'm sorry but I didn't get the memo. Buffy in Season 7 was more slayer than ever before. If that was the idea for the execution of the metaphor, over overcoming the darkness of the Slayer and embracing her humanity, then in my opinion it was not relayed in the writing or on the screen.

I think I was confusing there, which doesn't surprise me because I don't really talk about Spuffy in this way often! 🙂

But when I said "Buffy rejecting her darker slayer side and embracing her humanity plays out in concert with the darker side being imbued with humanity (Spike getting a soul)," I meant specifically that at the end of Season 6, we see Buffy reject Spike, then she almost dies and ultimately she has to climb out of the grave again, but this time she brings Dawn, her humanity, with her. I think we're meant to see that as her putting her depression behind her -- at least the crisis stage, which began to be resolved when she chose her Sunnydale life over the asylum in Normal Again -- essentially she was no longer suicidal at that point. She chooses life/humanity/Dawn over the darkness. And that's played out against the background of Spike getting his soul. In Season 7, I don't see Buffy as embracing her humanity. I see her as embracing her slayer power and largely cutting herself off from the other parts of herself. But her slayer power has now been infected with Buffy's own goodness, in a way, and what Spike ultimately gives back to Buffy is the strength to get through her falling out with the Scoobies and then to figure out a way to stop being *the* slayer altogether. This is why Spike has to die, in my view. If Spike, as I see him, represents Buffy's singular slayer power in Season 7, then he has to die at the end because Buffy is destroying the myth of one girl in all the world and choosing her own story.

I'm not saying I'm happy with how this is handled from a character- or story-based perspective, but I appreciate the metaphorical stuff as I see it.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I see her as embracing her slayer power and largely cutting herself off from the other parts of herself. But her slayer power has now been infected with Buffy's own goodness, in a way, and what Spike ultimately gives back to Buffy is the strength to get through her falling out with the Scoobies and then to figure out a way to stop being *the* slayer altogether.

As a metaphor this is pretty great. Because at the end of the day Buffy coming to an understanding or a balance with her slayer power is what it's all about. It has been a while since I watched Season 7 so I will look for this on my re-watch.

I think at the end of the day what I find so strange is that part of her downfall in season 6, her obstacle, so to speak (Spike and the relationship with him), becomes mechanism with which she finds her strength. I can understand how this would be appealing to some (and obviously it is to a great majority) but to me perhaps again because I am so literal minded, I want to see her rise above that relationship. Although you could argue that post soul it is a different relationship....

I want to believe that Spike was a tool in Buffy's character development and arc in Season 7. But my recollection was that it was quite the other way around.

 

[Grace]

I want to believe that Spike was a tool in Buffy's character development and arc in Season 7. But my recollection was that it was quite the other way around.

Maybe this is secretly my way of taking all that stuff and making it about Buffy. Like, if Spike is a representation of Buffy and she's not just his soul sponsor / personal messiah or whatever, I can handle it more. Metaphorical therapy?

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Like, if Spike is a representation of Buffy and she's not just his soul sponsor / personal messiah or whatever, I can handle it more.

When you said "soul sponsor" it reminded me of the Angel/Faith and Buffy/Spike parallels. But the reason the Angel/Faith stuff works so well is because Angel is on the road to redemption, he has been in Faith's shoes before and can offer her understanding in the "been there done that" category. But Buffy isn't really on that path right? Sure, we are all on a road for self improvement but not all of us are in treatment for recovery (the metaphor used in Angel).

In fact, I think the dynamic is much closer to "personal messiah" where he is trying to be a better person for her, and for her alone.

"Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers."

I think I'm getting to the crux of why this doesn't work for me. Angel wants to do good not for Buffy alone but for the world. And even at the beginning, when he saw her and was inspired to fight, I never got the impression that he was turning his life around to attract her or get her to love him. He was inspired by Buffy, sure, but he was never doing it to win her affection. In fact, initially he was trying to stay away from her.

Spike does it for Buffy. I guess its a romantic notion. But I'd say the more admirable man is the man who wants to better himself not just for you, to get you to love them, but because its the right thing to do.

I don't know how I got here. I fear I'm way off track... lol. Sorry if I have derailed the topic?

 

[Grace]

I think I'm getting to the crux of why this doesn't work for me. Angel wants to do good not for Buffy alone but for the world. And even at the beginning, when he saw her and was inspired to fight, I never got the impression that he was turning his life around to attract her or get her to love him. He was inspired by Buffy, sure, but he was never doing it to win her affection. In fact, initially he was trying to stay away from her.

Spike does it for Buffy. I guess its a romantic notion. But I'd say the more admirable man is the man who wants to better himself not just for you, to get you to love them, but because its the right thing to do.

Agreed, though to be fair, it takes Angel quite a long time to be able to get to that point, and he still struggles with figuring out what's right. Spike is just starting his journey, and it's not until he gets away from Buffy entirely on AtS that he makes any true progress on that score. His sacrifice in the Hellmouth is his first step, though I think even that is him trying to prove to Buffy that he's worthy, that her belief in him hasn't been wasted. To me, it's a shame the way his development was handled in the comics, because I think there was a lot of interesting stuff to explore post-Season 5 of AtS, but he kinda just repeated the same dynamics with Buffy and then became insta-perfect when the storyline demanded it. But, honestly, everyone's growth or lack thereof has seemed artificial in the comics to me. I think it's just comics vs. TV, tbh.

Spike definitely has an addiction recovery storyline in Season 7, but you're right that Buffy can't truly fill the role of sponsor because she hasn't been soulless (or evil, if you take Faith into the equation). He needs a redemption buddy. 🙂

 

[BuffyBot22]

I have also found it interesting to note that Spuffy and that dynamic is often examined in academic circles and especially celebrated for its complexity. I do not necessarily disagree with these assessments. It is a very complex relationship. That does not make it a good or positive relationship it makes it - just that - complex and intriguing.

Very tired, and can't wait to read the rest of your post and others! But I saw this tidbit and couldn't agree more.
I feel that complex relationships are often misintepreted as good relationships when really it's just good TV (if done correctly) because it's interesting.
I find Darla and Angel's relationship fascinating. It's complex, dynamic, interesting, but very far from healthy (good). I like to watch it, dissect, understand it.

 

[EarthLogic]

Oooh so much to reply to!

I agree wholeheartedly on this point to the extent that we are discussing S5/6, I'm not on board with this assessment in s7 because the writing to me was incredibly and wildly inconsistent. But I thought the Season 6 writing in particular in the troughs of the Spuffy hook ups were incredibly well developed on an individual episode level. To me what was missing in s6 was the Joss like overreaching arc we got in s2-5 where each little building block gives way to the bigger picture story.

Yes this is why I believe that Buffy's arc in S6 is probably the best thing about that season. It's the only thing that really holds it together because it is developed almost all the way through. Without it the season just falls apart because we don't have those well thought out building blocks that feed into the overall picture, just very disparate threads. You could argue in its favour that this structural disconnect is reflective of the disconnect between the characters, but IMO that's a weak argument because it's perfectly possible to have tight interweaving narrative threads while giving us an overall story of individual isolation. This season just failed to do that.

At the end of the day we saw little to no impact of the A/R to Buffy's character.

If Buffy in Season 7 was meant to be embracing her humanity, I'm sorry but I didn't get the memo. Buffy in Season 7 was more slayer than ever before. If that was the idea for the execution of the metaphor, over overcoming the darkness of the Slayer and embracing her humanity, then in my opinion it was not relayed in the writing or on the screen.

I think Grace summed up my answer perfectly:

In Season 7, I don't see Buffy as embracing her humanity. I see her as embracing her slayer power and largely cutting herself off from the other parts of herself. But her slayer power has now been infected with Buffy's own goodness, in a way, and what Spike ultimately gives back to Buffy is the strength to get through her falling out with the Scoobies and then to figure out a way to stop being *the* slayer altogether. This is why Spike has to die, in my view. If Spike, as I see him, represents Buffy's singular slayer power in Season 7, then he has to die at the end because Buffy is destroying the myth of one girl in all the world and choosing her own story.

But I wonder what this means when you take into account the events of S4 regarding the Scoobies? S7 is about power, and specifically the power of the Slayer, but in S4 we see Buffy take on the powers her friends provide in addition to her Slayer strength. The end of that season seemed to be a statment on how Buffy's strength partly derives from her support structure of friends and yet S7 seems to enact another isolation off the back of S6. I haven't got to 'Empty Places' yet, so I can't remember the season's build-up to the kicking-out moment (still trying to get round to watching 'Same Time, Same Place') but I wonder if you guys with better memories think that S7 ended up working against that element of Buffy's ties to humanity?

The fact that both of them have become parents, have responsibilities of running a household, taking care of baby/teen as well as fulfilling their sacred duties means they are in uncharted grown up territory. And therefore, whoever each of them are in a relationship with (or trying to start a relationship and failing miserably at it - see Cangel) (or having sex with - see Spuffy) will undoubtedly feel more adult. That is a more a product of the setting and less a commentary on the relationship itself.

Yup.

But when I said "Buffy rejecting her darker slayer side and embracing her humanity plays out in concert with the darker side being imbued with humanity (Spike getting a soul)," I meant specifically that at the end of Season 6, we see Buffy reject Spike, then she almost dies and ultimately she has to climb out of the grave again, but this time she brings Dawn, her humanity, with her. I think we're meant to see that as her putting her depression behind her -- at least the crisis stage, which began to be resolved when she chose her Sunnydale life over the asylum in Normal Again -- essentially she was no longer suicidal at that point. She chooses life/humanity/Dawn over the darkness. And that's played out against the background of Spike getting his soul.

Do you guys feel that this recovery came too quickly though? S6 was supposed to be about the weight of life and the 'reality' of trying to trudge through it and yet near the end we have a sudden shift back to the magic and demonyness of everything. I wonder whether Buffy's recovery by the end was just a bit too easy?
On a different point, if Spike does represent death/embrace of death, then Buffy's rejection of him specifically by stating she doesn't love him work nicely as a refutation of his FFL 'you're just a little bit in love with it'. Not that I think there isn't a truth to what he says there, but it's a partial truth.

Spike is just starting his journey, and it's not until he gets away from Buffy entirely on AtS that he makes any true progress on that score. His sacrifice in the Hellmouth is his first step, though I think even that is him trying to prove to Buffy that he's worthy, that her belief in him hasn't been wasted. To me, it's a shame the way his development was handled in the comics, because I think there was a lot of interesting stuff to explore post-Season 5 of AtS,

This is what I love about AtS. If you think about it every character who moved to that show experienced huge character development now that they were no longer tied to Buffy's story: Cordy, Spike, Faith, Wesley, heck even Harmony. On the other thread someone said that they felt Angel faded into the background when Faith came on to the show, but I actually think that's one of its strengths. The show provides that space for individual character development and I think it's great that DB as lead is willing to step back and allow others to take centre stage. I think it fits in well Angel's mission statement of helping the helpless. In order to help like he did with Faith, he has to back down from his own story and devote himself to furthering someone else's.

I find Darla and Angel's relationship fascinating. It's complex, dynamic, interesting, but very far from healthy (good). I like to watch it, dissect, understand it.

This is why I disagree with people who say Angel and Darla should have been a couple/would have made a good couple post-soul. Their deep connection is precisely what makes them wrong for each other IMO, because it goes too far back and too deep. They are reflections of each other in the rawest sense so I don't think it's possible for them to not look at each other and see their whole rotten history together and that's just not healthy. To move forward they each need someone who sees them differently than they see each other/know each other. (like Buffy, or even Cordy did with Angel).

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I wonder whether Buffy's recovery by the end was just a bit too easy?

I would argue that Buffy’s recovery never really came. S6 to me was like a minor chord in music that never truly resolved. It is terribly frustrating.

I hate dork Angel post Epiphany but at least the show was trying to clearly demonstrate how Angel had learned his lesson and put it all behind him. And Darla was gone. She came back pregnant but died soon thereafter. We saw the shift in his personality. And moreover we saw him trying to connect with his friends again. Never saw that from Buffy aside from the reconciliation with Dawn. I would argue that wasn’t enough.

or even Cordy did with Angel).

No. Grumble grumble. 🙂

 

[Grace]

But I wonder what this means when you take into account the events of S4 regarding the Scoobies? S7 is about power, and specifically the power of the Slayer, but in S4 we see Buffy take on the powers her friends provide in addition to her Slayer strength. The end of that season seemed to be a statment on how Buffy's strength partly derives from her support structure of friends and yet S7 seems to enact another isolation off the back of S6. I haven't got to 'Empty Places' yet, so I can't remember the season's build-up to the kicking-out moment (still trying to get round to watching 'Same Time, Same Place') but I wonder if you guys with better memories think that S7 ended up working against that element of Buffy's ties to humanity?

I would need to rewatch to be sure, but my impression is that S6 and S7 suffered from the same problem, which is that they established some interesting concepts and then got stuck on them in the middle of the season, only to end with a big rush of events that didn't end up feeling quite earned. Having two seasons focusing on Buffy's isolation from the Scoobies and only really repairing it at the very end was pretty unsatisfying, although I do enjoy Chosen quite a bit. Maybe having the big rupture in Empty Places come earlier and allowing the ending to build more slowly would have helped.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Do you guys feel that this recovery came too quickly though? S6 was supposed to be about the weight of life and the 'reality' of trying to trudge through it and yet near the end we have a sudden shift back to the magic and demonyness of everything. I wonder whether Buffy's recovery by the end was just a bit too easy?

I never saw Buffy recover. I saw Buffy get a temporary break. Which can happen a lot, false breakthroughs. Spike was gone from early S7 and that summer (so was Willow) so Buffy focused on Dawn and with Xander they made a nice little family unit. Buffy seemed to be doing ok. But one by one the things from S6 come back, namely Willow (the one who pulled her out of heaven) and Spike (and that whole messy relationship). Things start to slowly fall apart and then comes Giles with a whole new set of pressures. Buffy falls apart again and in order to get through the day she clings to Spike (just like S6) and out of it comes a weird co-dependent relationship. But I never bought her recovery. It doesn't work like that. Depression doesn't just disappear.

This is what I love about AtS. If you think about it every character who moved to that show experienced huge character development now that they were no longer tied to Buffy's story: Cordy, Spike, Faith, Wesley, heck even Harmony. On the other thread someone said that they felt Angel faded into the background when Faith came on to the show, but I actually think that's one of its strengths. The show provides that space for individual character development and I think it's great that DB as lead is willing to step back and allow others to take centre stage. I think it fits in well Angel's mission statement of helping the helpless. In order to help like he did with Faith, he has to back down from his own story and devote himself to furthering someone else's.

I think it's due to Angel's nature. He's a restrained and subdued character which makes it easier to let other characters share the spotlight. Spike taking over BtVS is in large part due to the flashy-ness of the character and James acting as if he's on stage in a play instead of in front of a TV camera. He literally stands out. People responded to that so he got more and more focus, to the detriment of other characters. Not so with Angel on AtS.

Look I have no problem with a Spuffy type thing ala S6 in general. I have problems with the storytelling. That darkness theme has been there since S1 but Buffy was too young to explore it and I'm fine with that. They did it in S3 with Faith except her darkness had more to do with her personal life up until she became a slayer. How she used that power to deal with her issues is again not really related to the power itself, it's just an outlet she uses. S4 was too comedic and light in tone although they could have gone there if they wanted. S5 sort of goes into that when Buffy wants to know more about her power. But the darkness was explored through the wrong character because it was unrelated to the slayer power itself. And that character was Riley. That whole thing of 'Buffy needs a monster in her man' was BS because there was no proof for it. Buffy didn't love Riley enough (from his POV) and he thought it was because of her previous relationship with Angel who was a vampire. So he decided to see what all the fuss was about and to change into what he thought she wanted. Except he had no understanding of their relationship or Buffy. Buffy didn't love Angel because he was a vampire and all the darkness that comes with it.

When Buffy comes back from heaven and depression sets in, I have no issues with her living it out via a S&M relationship. Delving into that darkness that she felt is all well and good. My problem will always be that she went there with a soulless vampire. Spike or some other vampire, it doesn't matter. The vampire darkness is fundamentally different from human darkness. I never saw Buffy's darkness in S6 as a slayer power darkness, because Buffy was still human with a human soul. Her issues were all coming from that. If Buffy had come back without a soul or some kind of altered state were the soul is repressed, then it would make more sense as the latent demonic slayer power could be coming forth in such a scenario. Then it would make sense to go to a soulless vampire. But she is human with a soul and any soulless vampire can't relate to the struggles we have because they literally lack the tools to do so.

It should have been Buffy with another human that struggles with their own darkness. A human would be able to understand why she is in her state and where it's coming from.

 

[BuffyBot22]

I never saw Buffy recover. I saw Buffy get a temporary break. Which can happen a lot, false breakthroughs. Spike was gone from early S7 and that summer (so was Willow) so Buffy focused on Dawn and with Xander they made a nice little family unit. Buffy seemed to be doing ok. But one by one the things from S6 come back, namely Willow (the one who pulled her out of heaven) and Spike (and that whole messy relationship). Things start to slowly fall apart and then comes Giles with a whole new set of pressures. Buffy falls apart again and in order to get through the day she clings to Spike (just like S6) and out of it comes a weird co-dependent relationship. But I never bought her recovery. It doesn't work like that. Depression doesn't just disappear.


I think it's due to Angel's nature. He's a restrained and subdued character which makes it easier to let other characters share the spotlight. Spike taking over BtVS is in large part due to the flashy-ness of the character and James acting as if he's on stage in a play instead of in front of a TV camera. He literally stands out. People responded to that so he got more and more focus, to the detriment of other characters. Not so with Angel on AtS.

Look I have no problem with a Spuffy type thing ala S6 in general. I have problems with the storytelling. That darkness theme has been there since S1 but Buffy was too young to explore it and I'm fine with that. They did it in S3 with Faith except her darkness had more to do with her personal life up until she became a slayer. How she used that power to deal with her issues is again not really related to the power itself, it's just an outlet she uses. S4 was too comedic and light in tone although they could have gone there if they wanted. S5 sort of goes into that when Buffy wants to know more about her power. But the darkness was explored through the wrong character because it was unrelated to the slayer power itself. And that character was Riley. That whole thing of 'Buffy needs a monster in her man' was BS because there was no proof for it. Buffy didn't love Riley enough (from his POV) and he thought it was because of her previous relationship with Angel who was a vampire. So he decided to see what all the fuss was about and to change into what he thought she wanted. Except he had no understanding of their relationship or Buffy. Buffy didn't love Angel because he was a vampire and all the darkness that comes with it.

When Buffy comes back from heaven and depression sets in, I have no issues with her living it out via a S&M relationship. Delving into that darkness that she felt is all well and good. My problem will always be that she went there with a soulless vampire. Spike or some other vampire, it doesn't matter. The vampire darkness is fundamentally different from human darkness. I never saw Buffy's darkness in S6 as a slayer power darkness, because Buffy was still human with a human soul. Her issues were all coming from that. If Buffy had come back without a soul or some kind of altered state were the soul is repressed, then it would make more sense as the latent demonic slayer power could be coming forth in such a scenario. Then it would make sense to go to a soulless vampire. But she is human with a soul and any soulless vampire can't relate to the struggles we have because they literally lack the tools to do so.

It should have been Buffy with another human that struggles with their own darkness. A human would be able to understand why she is in her state and where it's coming from.

I don't think Buffy wanted someone to understand where she was coming from. I think in a sense Spike was what she "needed." I used needed in a crutch type of sense (like for example some sort of drug.) . Buffy was depressed and used Spike (her drug) to cope. She didn't want her drug to understand her or relate to her on any level because then she might just have to face how she is actually feeling. With Spike, she didn't have to face it or even think about it. So Spike works in this sense. The writers just did not execute this the right say. Execution is key in believability.

 

[EarthLogic]

I would argue that Buffy’s recovery never really came. S6 to me was like a minor chord in music that never truly resolved. It is terribly frustrating.

That's a good way of putting it. Though I believe we did get Buffy back at the end - the very end, i.e. 'Chosen'. If you go back to the beginnings of her anxieties in S5, remember she's worried that being the Slayer is making her cold and heartless and that she can't say 'I love you' to Giles or Dawn in a genuine way. I think that her 'I love you' at the end of 'Chosen' can be seen as indicative of her recovery from that. We can argue back and forth about whether she meant it in a romantic or platonic way, but IMO the important thing was that she was able to genuinely say the words again with conviction, which was the resolution of the thread that had been running through from S5.

No. Grumble grumble. 🙂

Hehe. I hear you. I'm not by any means trying to equate Buffy and Cordy's perceptions of Angel. Just meant that even Cordy (puttinng aside her lack of understanding of his dark side and the S4 crap for the purposes of thsi argument) saw him from a kind of 'now' perspective. Whatever else, she did think of him as a friend and a good person.

I would need to rewatch to be sure, but my impression is that S6 and S7 suffered from the same problem, which is that they established some interesting concepts and then got stuck on them in the middle of the season, only to end with a big rush of events that didn't end up feeling quite earned. Having two seasons focusing on Buffy's isolation from the Scoobies and only really repairing it at the very end was pretty unsatisfying, although I do enjoy Chosen quite a bit. Maybe having the big rupture in Empty Places come earlier and allowing the ending to build more slowly would have helped.

Yes, big complex ideas, questionable execution. Structure definitely seems to be an issue for those seasons.

But she is human with a soul and any soulless vampire can't relate to the struggles we have because they literally lack the tools to do so.

It should have been Buffy with another human that struggles with their own darkness. A human would be able to understand why she is in her state and where it's coming from.

No I think going to Spike made absolute sense as a metaphor. First of all he exists completely outside her friendship circle - in literal darkness - so the symbolism is obvious there. Spike doesn't fit in, and in S6 Buffy doesn't feel like she belongs either and so she uses him, like @BuffyBot22 says, as an escape.

Secondly, it's not really about him relating to her state (it's clear that he doesn't truly understand), but him - even simply the image/idea of him - confronting her with her darker desires. As a vampire Spike enjoys the rush of the kill, and embraces that fine line between pleasure and pain. Since 'Dracula' Buffy's been aware (if not yet struggling) of the same sort of impulses that drive her. She does kill, and just as Faith points out, a part of her does enjoy it, so Spike by his very nature represents that part of her Slayerness that she has not yet come to terms with. I think 'Dead Things' distils the situation down to what its really about when she beats him up, calling him an evil 'thing'. She sees him as something monstrous, but fears that it in turn makes her monstrous for continuing to go back to him. The scene mirrors that with Faith in 'Who are You'.

Entering that kind of relationship with a human just wouldn't have been possible because there's not way Buffy could have treated someone like that because:
A) a human just wouldn't be able to take that kind of abuse on a physical level, unless perhaps it was another slayer
B) there's no way would Buffy have been able to stay a hero in the eyes of the audience if she did. She got a lot of hate anyway for the way she treated Spike. No way could she do that with someone souled.
C) Buffy is a good person and I don't think she would do that to another human - she can do that with Spike precisely because he is a soulless being. That's the crux of her dilemma in the season: she desires him, but knows he's evil. He can hit her and cause her pain and she both hates and physically enjoys it so she thinks there's something wrong with her, that she came back wrong. When she finds there's nothing physically or mystically 'wrong' it shatters her even more because it means she's doing these things entirely out of choice rather than by there being something missing from her, or controlling her. The previous morals she's held herself to are now completely broken down.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Her issues were all coming from that. If Buffy had come back without a soul or some kind of altered state were the soul is repressed, then it would make more sense as the latent demonic slayer power could be coming forth in such a scenario.

This has been a fic idea of mine for a while. Maybe one day I'll get around to it.

If you go back to the beginnings of her anxieties in S5, remember she's worried that being the Slayer is making her cold and heartless and that she can't say 'I love you' to Giles or Dawn in a genuine way. I think that her 'I love you' at the end of 'Chosen' can be seen as indicative of her recovery from that. We can argue back and forth about whether she meant it in a romantic or platonic way, but IMO the important thing was that she was able to genuinely say the words again with conviction, which was the resolution of the thread that had been running through from S5.

This call back to s5 doesn't work for me, personally. She says I love you to Dawn at the end of Season 5 before she dies. That is the resolution of that arc - she loves so much she sacrifices her life for her.

But I do believe that after s3 Buffy struggles to say I Love You to people. Not sure what if anything Angel had to do with that. I don't really understand her inability to say those words or how that relates to her humanity/slayer dynamic. But Christos seemed to talk about this in the s11 Q/A. He thinks those issues are now resolved with the spuffy ILY, which indicates that maybe there was some discussion from Joss/writers about how those issues were not previously resolved until to s11. I don't believe the Spuffy ILY in s7. I do believe the Spuffy ILY in s11 - hands down. If Buffy has resolved her inability to feel love or say she loves, I'm happy for that, even if the guy she said I love you is not my favorite. That, again, is part of Buffy's journey and I'm happy for it.

 

[EarthLogic]

This call back to s5 doesn't work for me, personally. She says I love you to Dawn at the end of Season 5 before she dies. That is the resolution of that arc - she loves so much she sacrifices her life for her.

Yes you're right. Forgot about that one. Always do because it's done in voiceover.

dcai0830: Its probably hard to hear over the ugly crying that's going on (If you are anything like me).

Lol. True.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I don't think Buffy wanted someone to understand where she was coming from. I think in a sense Spike was what she "needed." I used needed in a crutch type of sense (like for example some sort of drug.) . Buffy was depressed and used Spike (her drug) to cope. She didn't want her drug to understand her or relate to her on any level because then she might just have to face how she is actually feeling. With Spike, she didn't have to face it or even think about it. So Spike works in this sense. The writers just did not execute this the right say. Execution is key in believability.

Of course she used him, she made that pretty clear. I was just never sure what the writers were going for exactly. Because there is the Spike 'angle' and the Buffy 'angle'. Spike's whole spiel was all about 'they can't understand you, relate to you, get your darkness but I can'. Of course that was just so he could get what he wants but Spike has been put in the role of 'truth teller' for quite a while before S6. That's why it doesn't work for me that she goes to a soulless vampire. The story is different from Buffy's 'angle' in that she used Spike because he wasn't human and she had no respect for him, so using him was easy. But the problem is the execution, especially things set up before S6. And that makes it confusing.

IMO it always made more sense to me that Buffy would be chasing heaven again, rather than go the darkness route. That she would be turning to literal drugs so she can have the feeling again that she had in heaven. Maybe even mystical drugs ala Orpheus, except it would lead her to heaven instead of hell.

 

[Mylie]

IMO it always made more sense to me that Buffy would be chasing heaven again, rather than go the darkness route. That she would be turning to literal drugs so she can have the feeling again that she had in heaven. Maybe even mystical drugs ala Orpheus, except it would lead her to heaven instead of hell.

I agree! I know part of her depression was her feeling like she came back wrong and there was something wrong with her but after feeling so at peace how come she didn’t seek that feeling at all? One could argue that she just wasn’t into drugs/alcohol but Spike was used as a metaphor for drugs at times but it was a lot more self harm then drugs. She just never seemed like it did her any good? At best she felt good the time of an orgasm. The rest of the time she seemed miserable, so why would she go back to that drug then? Or maybe I just don’t get sex as a drug...