The whole grudge on Spike Take 2

[TheVoid68]

"Hey, that's cheating!" =/= "No, please stop! NO!"

 

[Allie]

huh? you are joking right?

 

[Misty]

Wait, when did Buffy rape Spike? And even when she did go after him, he didn't turn down her offer.



AI can not see how, within that logic, Buffy would not "deserve" it. Which is a main point why I think concepts like "retributive justice" and "justified vengeance" are unworthy of a civilized society.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that Buffy deserved to get raped by Spike?! Because nobody deserves to be raped no matter how mean they are to someone.

 

[white avenger]

Except for the balcony scene in "Dead Things," Buffy was shown as initiating the sex whenever it happened, rather forcibly in "Smashed" and "Gone," but I don't think that either one of those qualified as either attempted or actual rape.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Sorry, but when exactly did Buffy force herself on Spike? I NEVER heard him complain about anything. In "Gone" he wanted her and he liked it, but he was disappointed by the fact that she used her invisibility to feel free and not to care about others' opinions. He didn't push her away, he didn't yell at her, he didn't say "stop you're hurting me" ok?
There is absolutely no comparison between SR and Gone. Spike even when he was in pain, he liked it.

That's a double standard. If you argue that "no means no, no exceptions allowed, no quarter given", (which is a point I've been arguing against, all this thread long) - then yes, Buffy raped Spike, there can be no discussion about it. Spike said "no", Buffy pushed on. By the above definition (which is not mine, but that of others in this thread - TheVoid, randiann, e.g.), That. Is. Rape. Accept it. (If you don't wanna accept it, fine. But then the alternative has to be to change your definition to one that makes more sense... in which case you won't necessarily be able to blame Spike of "attempted rape" anymore, though.)

If "no means no and that's rape, except if the victim starts to enjoy it" - then there can never be such a thing as "attempted rape". Since Spike didn't go through with it in SR, noone can ever prove that Buffy wouldn't have "started to enjoy it" midway through the act. (It's unlikely, but with reasonable doubt always speaking in favor of the accused, no one could EVER charge someone with "attempted rape" under the above definition and stand more than a snowball in hell chance before a judge of seeing the offender get sentenced.) That is why I do not hold that reasoning to be true, and actually consider it tremendously dangerous.

A logic by which Spike attempted to rape Buffy, but Buffy didn't all-out rape Spike shows flaws wide enough to fill up the Sunnydale crater.

"Hey, that's cheating!" =/= "No, please stop! NO!"

In emotional tone, yes. In factual content as "I do not agree to this", no.

In fact, it's a beef I have with "Gone", in general. I'm really not sure what they wanted to tell us with that episode. They showed Buffy, as a character, at an all time ethical low (having sex with Spike over his no, making a woman who was only doing her job doubt her sanity), and they played it for laughs. I can't help but chuckle at Gone, but it's the type of chuckle that freezes in your throat and leaves a VERY bad aftertaste the moment you think about it - much like the scene with Katrina dressed up as a French maid, with Jonathan and Andrew wrestling over who gets to boink her first. It's shown as funny, but it's only fun until you stop think about it.

No Scooby has ever willfully done worse things than Buffy in "Gone" without the alibi of "evil alter ego", and yet, it's a comedy episode. Makes one wonder what the hell was going on with the writers there; I think they either lost the plot with this one, or they were trying to convey that Buffy was hopelessly corrupted by that point and used the means of inappropriate humor to give the audience a likewise feeling of corruption. If it's the latter, they seem to have failed miserably - as the people who seem to "get it" are a tiny minority, which thread like this one prove impressively.

Noone in their right mind would have dared to play the bathroom scene for laughs. (Just try and imagine it played at double speed, with the Benny Hill Theme in the background. If the thought of that doesn't make you wanna throw up and/or take a shower for feeling vilified, you'll have to be very jaded indeed.) Yet it's not such a big shot away from what they did with "Gone". One of the strangest episodes of the show, and one that doesn't get enough stick in discussion, if you ask me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that Buffy deserved to get raped by Spike?! Because nobody deserves to be raped no matter how mean they are to someone.

I'll gladly correct you, because you indeed got me wrong. I thought I clarified it already, right in the post you quoted, but I guess I'll have to do it again.

I never argued that Buffy deserved to have the rape experience. I pointed out, however, that you would indeed arrive at exactly that conclusion if you use the logic used by other posters in this thread, unless you take resort to double standards, hypocrisy, or (as Willow-Tree correctly pointed out) sexism. As I told TheVoid before, taking somebody's argument and running with it to show said person the logical flaws in their reasoning is a tried and true tool of debate.

If "No means no, always and without exception, and to go beyond that is rape" (which I am arguing AGAINST) then Buffy raped Spike in Gone. Anyone who says she didn't either must diasagree with the "if", or is in deep a state of denial.

If "murdering a murderer is fair play" (retribute justice, which I am arguing AGAINST), then raping a rapist is fair play, too.

If both sentences apply (which I am, obviously, arguing AGAINST, but which others in this thread are arguing FOR), then if Buffy, a rapist, gets raped, that has to be called just desserts.

So, if "noone ever deserves to get raped" (which I am arguing FOR, and everybody here says they agree), you cannot uphold the statements "No means no, always and without exception, and to go beyond that is rape" and "Retributive justice is justified". q.e.d.

I hope that got clear now, I'm starting to get tired of repeating myself.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Except for the balcony scene in "Dead Things," Buffy was shown as initiating the sex whenever it happened, rather forcibly in "Smashed" and "Gone," but I don't think that either one of those qualified as either attempted or actual rape.

Here's my take:

In 'Gone', I believe Buffy did unfairly pressure Spike to allow her to do what she wanted to him. His obvious insistence that if he couldn't have "all of her" "[she] should leave" clearly illustrated what he wanted from her. Yet, he obviously wasn't being very persistent or he wouldn't have been convinced so easily by her to stay. I think this is an instance of Spike putting up one of his prideful "smoke screen" things he mentions in 'Chosen'. Spike, in 'Gone', wanted Buffy to think that he didn't want her anymore so that she would question the way she was using him. It's a classic move. I wouldn't agree that it was RAPE per say, but she definitely pressured him to engage in sexual activity that he clearly didn't want initially.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Joan the Vampire Slayer agrees: This is how I've always saw it, but it's not a poplular opinion. Also, in all honestly, if he REALLY wanted to have stopped her, he could have.

Saw this karma after finishing my last post. 🙂

That is exactly the point I've been making before: Spike has never experienced sex over his no without it turning into fun for him, so I can't blame him for seeing nothing wrong with trying to have sex with Buffy over her no on the bathroom floor.

As for the really wanting to stop her - well he at least was p*ssed off with her enough to kicked her out of his crypt, afterwards, wasn't he? Over which Buffy did not act horrified and seek to do amends, but was iffy and went into a "how dare he!?" monologue.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

That is exactly the point I've been making before: Spike has never experienced sex over his no without it turning into fun for him, so I can't blame him for seeing nothing wrong with trying to have sex with Buffy over her no on the bathroom floor.

I see what you're saying, and I understand your point. I don't agree necessarily, but this would certainly explain the shocked look on his face when he does realize quite suddenly that what he's doing is hurting her.

As for the really wanting to stop her - well he at least was p*ssed off with her enough to kicked her out of his crypt, afterwards, wasn't he?

Absolutely. I brought that point up somewhere earlier in the last thread. The fact of the matter is, when the cameras cut, we don't know what went on or what Spike said, so it's all speculation.

Over which Buffy did not act horrified and seek to do amends, but was iffy and went into a "how dare he!?" monologue.

True. He sure put her in her place, lol.

As much as I respect your opinion on this issue, Ben, I think you're fighting a losing battle. You've done a great job at explaining your stance on the issue and why you believe such, and we all understand. But this is a sensitive subject for most fans, and people aren't to be persuaded.:smile3: Even though Buffy was more than willing to forgive Spike for the AR, the majority of the fans can't. That's just the way it is.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Has anyone done any research on anything Joss et al might have said specifically about the scene?

 

[Willow-Tree]

Has anyone done any research on anything Joss et al might have said specifically about the scene?

I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that Joss doesn't talk about it, but I may be making that up...

Anyone?

 

[Allie]

For the record, I don't blame Spike because he didn't a soul. I just didn't like things that were stated. But it is funny, that had nothing to do with my arguements. I didn't blame Spike for that or Angel for what Angelus has done. It was an attempted rape, but he was souless, so therefore not to blame, but it is still what it is.

 

[faeriegrrl27]

I don't know what Joss has said on the subject, but James Marsters has certainly spoken about it and said it was something he never, ever wanted to do again because in order to play his character, he has to become his character and so the AR felt like something he actually did. Poor James.

I think what we're seeing a lot of here is the sexual double standard. As several people have pointed out, when Buffy says no, it means no (sometimes), but when Spike says no, it means yes. That has long been the case in society and I can only conclude that the reason for this is the idea that men want sex more than women do. That is a highly scary idea and leads to all sorts of badness. BtVS has showed again and again than men and women want sex equally, and I respect the show a great deal for that, but if Buffy and Spike were had the same basic desire to boink (either when they did or didn't want it), then one cannot say it was OK for Buffy to pressure Spike. She suspected he would start to enjoy it and, in SR, he suspected she would start to enjoy it. We know this not to be true, but Spike probably didn't. For more on that, see the rest of this thread.

And I'd really like to give props to Ben because prior to getting in on this discussion, I felt very differently about the events of SR. But Ben made an actually amazing case and I now see it in a new perspective. So good job to you!

 

[InsaneMystic]

As much as I respect your opinion on this issue, Ben, I think you're fighting a losing battle.

I'm afraid so, too. It's just, like I said way above, I can't leave a point unchallenged that is based on irrational, flawed logic - especially if it leads to what I see in this case as accusing someone of a horrible crime he did not commit. It is obvious to me that Spike did not attempt to rape Buffy, so at the very least, this proves that there is reasonable doubt as to his guilt, because I can make a defense for him that contains no logical flaws.

To still press on and play judge, jury and executioner on someone who has reasonable doubt speak in favor of him just makes me immensely scared of what people who blindly condemn Spike consider to be "justice".

Even if it should be talking to a wall, I feel that I have to speak out against it in the name of justice and civil rights. (Gawd, here's me going all Martin Luther King over the friggin' bathroom scene. I sure as hell never expected that would happen. *sheepish smile*)

You've done a great job at explaining your stance on the issue and why you believe such, and we all understand.

Thanks hun. 🙂 I doubt that all understand it though, looking at some of the posts above, and that makes me both sad and scared.

But this is a sensitive subject for most fans, and people aren't to be persuaded.:smile3: Even though Buffy was more than willing to forgive Spike for the AR, the majority of the fans can't. That's just the way it is.

Sexual violence is probably a sensitive matter for everyone, myself most definitely included. It's just that double standards and accusations based purely on gut reactions instead of rational logic aren't any less sensitive, for me.

I do not perceive a flaw in my logic, and thus I think it sure wouldn't hurt if you (not you personally, Becky, "you" as "dear reader" 🙂 ) feel swayed by my reasons for valiantly pleading not guilty on the AR charge against Spike, but of course I don't expect you to be swayed.

What I do expect is respect for the fact (and a fact it is) that the sentence "Spike tried to rape Buffy", to me, feels just as wrong and disgusting as "Buffy deserved to be raped". We all owe that much respect to one another, and if someone feels they can't give that much, I think they should stay clear of posting in this thread.

I'm not saying it got to a point yet where anyone should be politely asked to withdraw from the debate, but I do think the atmosphere is charged enough that it might happen. Heck, I know that I've brushed on my acidic sarcasm in this debate, before, and I've obviously also stubbed some other people's toes when I definitely wasn't trying. I've actually been double- and triple-reading all my posts before clicking "send" to dull the sting, ever since Buffy (our Buffy here on the boards 🙂) rightly reminded us to not get into personal attacks, so I'm well aware that it's, indeed, a thread that could get very bad, very soon.

What I also hope for (but can grudgingly live with if I fail - after all, it's their loss, not mine 😛 ) is to get people to check their logic for flaws. Honesty and authenticity are extremly important values for me (which has to do with me being a person who's learned the hard way to trust my brains MUCH more than my guts), so if my rants can bring even one person closer to there, yay me, I'll have made the world a bit better that day. :blush:

 

[Willow-Tree]

Yes, Ben (do you mind if I call you that? Or would you rather InsaneMystic? 😛), you've done a fantastic job at debating this very controversial issue.

=D

 

[Black Eye Guy]

IM I've read through your points in this thread and in the other, and I can say that I just don't see where your coming from at all.

It seems like your saying we should be seeing this from Spikes side, and because he didn't have a soul and wasn't in control he shouldn't be accountable?

 

[InsaneMystic]

It seems like your saying we should be seeing this from Spikes side, and because he didn't have a soul and wasn't in control he shouldn't be accountable?

No, he is accountable, but for far less than he's blamed for.

With the history Buffy & Spike had regarding violent sex, and, more importantly, the devalutaion of "no" (again, see "Gone" for that), it's pretty hard on Spike to expect him to see Buffy's reaction to his advances as anything else than mixed signals.

Spike was, for all he could know, initiating consensual sex as established between them. Buffy said "no", but Buffy herself (who, at this point, still is very much Spike's "second hand moral compass") had firmly established "no doesn't need to mean no" ("Gone"), and when Buffy went over Spike's will there, it had turned out to be mighty good fun for both of them. Why shouldn't Buffy enjoy a little sex in the bathroom this time, too? I don't think you can blame Spike for initiating violent foreplay over Buffy's no, that alone does not make it non-consensual, and thus, by default, not rape. "No" is a mixed signal due to Buffy's previous actions - if she really wanted him to stop, she'd have to be more clear than this. Buffy, not Spike, is responsible for it up to this point, there's zero blame for Spike. There is no rape, just foreplay to consensual, if rough-and-tumble, sex.
I'd give even a man in real life a free pass for it until here; there's no victim, the girl was giving mixed signals, so she has no right to "call wolf". (Don't get me wrong: We're just talking about the word "No" until this point.)

It becomes different when Spike doesn't stop after Buffy starts to struggle in serious; different enough as that the free pass doesn't count anymore, but still not enough to call it "attempted rape", IMO.
We, as souled creatures (with conscience and empathy) think it's clear that "this time, she means it" from the emotion Buffy shows; but I have significant doubt if you can expect an unsouled creature to make that distinction. I think that, without a soul, it still takes picking up rather subtle clues that Buffy indeed does not want this to happen. After all, it still is the same situation as before - consensual foreplay, for all that Spike knows, she just struggles a bit more than usual, but then Buffy is nothing if not a passionate woman who expresses every other emotion through violence (beating Spike to a pulp in the alley in "Dead Things" comes to mind). To see struggle A = "I hate myself", struggle B = "ooh baby I'm horny" and struggle C = "you're hurting me, please STOP!" takes empathy skills that I doubt can be expected of a soulless creature (elseway, the whole concept of "soul" gets watered down so much that the Angel->Angelus->Angel arc in S2 becomes pretty much pointless... and I'd hate the thought of Jenny Calendar having died for nothing.).
Failing to pick up on subtle clues midway into consensual foreplay is not ok, but calling it an attempt of rape is still a bit much, IMO. I'm ok with calling it "reckless endangerment" or something along these lines, but I still see no malice at all in his intentions. (And to those who say "intention doesn't count", yet again S2 comes to mind as the test for your convictions. If intention doesn't count, then look at the end of "Becoming II" and please explain why Buffy killing a man who does not see the attack coming and is unprepared to defend himself should be called anything but cold-blooded murder. Strange "love", indeed. 😉)

When Buffy kicks him off, Spike realizes that he has very badly hurt Buffy, someone he cares about (even though I think that caring isn't to be called "love" just yet). He knows what rape is (he's more than likely raped women and girls back in his pre-chip days), but he never intended to do it to someone he actually cares about. Being at risk to accidentally cause a rape experience without intending it shocks him. He makes the leap of thought that, if he had had a soul, he would not have hurt Buffy like that, even accidentally, so to stop it from ever happening again, he immediately gets up to get what it takes to present it - his soul.

So, all in all, if that ain't alleviating circumstances to go easy on the Spike blame, nothing is.

 

[Misty]

^^ You have some interesting points, but I think we should hold Spike responsible for the AR and NOT Buffy because she couldn't controll Spike's actions. But one thing I didn't get in some of the posts was when some people were saying that Buffy raped Spike in Gone, which I really disagree on because Buffy was hurting him to make him have sex with her and he did have sex with her. But the important thing is that Spike paid for what he did by getting a soul and became a better man.

 

[InsaneMystic]

^^ You have some interesting points, but I think we should hold Spike responsible for the AR and NOT Buffy because she couldn't controll Spike's actions.

Responsible for causing Buffy pain, yes. Responsible for that pain coming in the form of a rape experience, no.

But one thing I didn't get in some of the posts was when some people were saying that Buffy raped Spike in Gone, which I really disagree on because Buffy was hurting him to make him have sex with her and he did have sex with her.

I don't say that Gone was rape. (Unless I'm getting her point wrong, LadyLavinia is stricter in her judgment there than I am.)

What I am saying is that if there's no situational exception to "no means no", ever, then Gone must be called rape, too, because, clearly, Buffy initiated sex against Spike's will (which is always pretty damn shady ethics, but, IMO, not automatically rape). Spike came to enjoy it, but that's irrelevant. You cannot have a categorical statement about the start-out of a situation ("if A, then always B") and then redefine ex post facto ("unless A later on turns to C"), otherwise there cannot ever be such a thing as "attempted" rape - any victim could have changed their mind midway through it and come to enjoy it, so with ex-post-facto logics, unless the sex was full-on completed, noone can know if it would have "really" been against the will of the person saying no at its onset (in 99 cases of 100, including the bathroom scene, it's as likely as hell freezing over that they change their mind, but you can never prove it - after all, Spike proved in "Gone" that the one percent does exist).

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I feel that I have to preface this by saying that I'm not a Bangel, nor do i care too much about 'ships Buffy is in. I also don't hold a 'grudge' against Spike for this even though I found him (and Buffy) gross in season 6.

I haven't read the other thread yet so I don't know if anyone's said what I have.

But what I find very odd, is that nobody ever holds Angel responsible for his actions in Season 2 of Buffy. Yes Angel didn't have soul, but neither did Spike in Seeing Red.

Spike didn't have a soul, yes, but he was insisting that he loved her and that's probably part of why people have a 'grudge' or stopped liking him or whatever.

Also, "I'm going to make you feel it."? Isn't it a pretty widely held belief that rape is a crime about power and control? It sure seemed like he wanted to exert some power over her then.

Please don't bring up Gone to me. I'm not sure I remember it and if it had Spuffy sex I probably blocked it out on purpose.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I also don't hold a 'grudge' against Spike for this even though I found him (and Buffy) gross in season 6.
[...]
Spike didn't have a soul, yes, but he was insisting that he loved her and that's probably part of why people have a 'grudge' or stopped liking him or whatever.

Also, "I'm going to make you feel it."? Isn't it a pretty widely held belief that rape is a crime about power and control? It sure seemed like he wanted to exert some power over her then.

I agree with you on more levels than you probably expect. 🙂

1) Spuffy between the end of Tabula Rasa and the end of Seeing Red is gross, disturbing, and painful to watch in many, many ways - especially for a Spuffy like me.

2) I don't believe Spike loved Buffy pre-soul. Then again, I don't believe Angel loved Buffy with a soul, either. 😉

3) Rape is more about power and control than about sex, true. The trouble is that pretty much everything between Buffy and Spike in the time period mentioned in 1) was a dance of power and control, on both sides, and Buffy seemed pretty much ok with it over most of the time, so it's a bit harsh blaming Spike for it now.
And with Buffy leaving, and coming back, and leaving again, and coming back again, "but she ended the relationship" is less of an argument than it should be - especially if Spike still feels wronged over AYW because he may very well not have been the Doctor and it all was Riley's plan to frame him up as a means of getting back at him... a conspiracy theory that makes more sense to me than AYW taken at face value. That one ep has almost as many plot holes as all of AtS S4 combined. 😉