The whole grudge on Spike....

[Misty]

Now even though I am a Bangel as well as a Spuffy, I think it is unfair how people hold the attempted rape in Seeing Red on Spike. But what I find very odd, is that nobody ever holds Angel responsible for his actions in Season 2 of Buffy. Yes Angel didn't have soul, but neither did Spike in Seeing Red. Also, Buffy is no innocent angel in the attempted rape because she is responsible for this happening too, for the way that she just treated Spike like dirt and made the relationship very difficult and confusing. And when did ensouled Spike tried to kill Buffy in her sleep, not to mention her mom, and even succeed killing somebody that was a Scooby at one time? So I think that it's alittle unfair to compare souled Angel with ensouled Spike in a Spuffy/Bangel debate or thread.

 

[TheGrandmaster]

This is very true. The only character is doesn't show this hypocrisy is Xander, who seemed to dislike and distrust both Spike and Angel.

 

[Flannen]

Whilst I agree it's unfair and can see where you're coming from for me it comes from the fact that unsouled Spike and Angelus were so different.

The show took a much more blurry view later on and there was a huge line between Angelus and Angel but there wasn't when it came to Spike. We're given to think that Spike is in love with Buffy pre-soul or at least as close as he could be to love without a soul and it's always a huge deal about how much good he did soulless, (and in fairness how Angelus would never be capable of it himself), and his actions in 'Seeing Red' completely contradict that.

I'm not saying it's a valid or justified argument but it's why I've never just been able to brush it off as 'meh he didn't have a soul'.

And, on a side note, saying that Buffy had something to do with it will NEVER sit right with me or be a reason to excuse for his actions.

 

[GrrArghx]

I think it's extremely ridiculous to say Buffy is responsible for almost getting raped. It doesn't matter what she did to Spike. It doesn't give him the right or the excuse to do what he did.

That being said, I don't hold a grudge on Spike. Yes, he didn't have a soul. And right after that he went and got one! If that's not remorse, I don't know what is. Especially for a vampire considering the soul is supposed to be something so disgusting. lol

 

[Misty]

And, on a side note, saying that Buffy had something to do with it will NEVER sit right with me or be a reason to excuse for his actions.

Well yes, Spike was responible too and he shouldn't have done that. But Buffy isn't that innocent in this situation either, because the way that she just treated him awful and confused him was a cause of the attempted rape because she was using Spike for sex just to make herself feel better, and Spike was sort of confused.

 

[Flannen]

Well yes, Spike was responible too and he shouldn't have done that. But Buffy isn't that innocent in this situation either, because the way that she just treated him awful and confused him was a cause of the attempted rape because she was using Spike for sex just to make herself feel better, and Spike was sort of confused.

I'm sorry but this just doesn't cut it. I've said this before in other similar threads but Buffy's way of saying no to Spike in that instant was so far from any of their other sexual encounters and there is absolutely no way that he didn't see that.

I may see things like this in black and white and that's fine but no one ever 'asks' to have something like that forced upon them, they never deserve it. Not consenting it is not consenting and that's just the way it is for me.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Yeah, let's forget about that rape thing only because girl has super powers.

And I find it funny how you compare Angelus and Spike. It's like, who ever said orange is a new pink what seriously disturbed!

 

[Nix]

Well yes, Spike was responible too and he shouldn't have done that. But Buffy isn't that innocent in this situation either, because the way that she just treated him awful and confused him was a cause of the attempted rape because she was using Spike for sex just to make herself feel better, and Spike was sort of confused.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying Buffy is responsible for her almost getting Raped??

Because if you are I have to strongly Disagree. No victim/survivor is responsible for rape or attempted rape. NO means NO in any language or situation.

 

[Misty]

I'm sorry but this just doesn't cut it. I've said this before in other similar threads but Buffy's way of saying no to Spike in that instant was so far from any of their other sexual encounters and there is absolutely no way that he didn't see that.

I may see things like this in black and white and that's fine but no one ever 'asks' to have something like that forced upon them, they never deserve it. Not consenting it is not consenting and that's just the way it is for me.

I agree, no one deserves to be raped at all, no matter how mean they are to their boyfriends. Also, the attempted rape wasn't becuase Buffy said no to Spike, it's because they were both indeed abusing eachother.

 

[Eleftheria]

Angelus is a soulless vampire, master of torment and also a sadist. During season 2, because Buffy made Angel feel so human, Angelus wanted to have vengeance. He had an obsession with her, but he never claimed he felt any kind of love. Love was lame for him. He did many evil actions and noone excuses him for that. Angel is innocent, Angelus is not.

Spike, without a soul, claimed he had feelings for Buffy. Feelings he wanted to call "love". He certainly didn;t wanna kill her. They abused each other yes, both physically and verbally, but Buffy ended this in "As you were". She said that she won't go on with this cause she doesn't love him. In Seeing red Buffy said no. And that means NO. It wasn't like the no she said in Dead things. She fought back. At first she fought like any other normal girl would resist that obnoxious action. And then she had to use her superpowers to save herself. If for some reason Buffy wasn't able to use her powers, Spike would go all the way. She had never fought him back in the past. This time she didn't want him. I don't see how Buffy is responsible. Buffy was only responsible for starting this sick relationship, but she found the courage to end it, even though the hours of pleasure was a nice escape of her nastiest reality in this world.


Believe me, if Angelus had attempted to rape Buffy, if Angel came back, Buffy wouldn't touch him easily.Like she did with ensouled Spike. It is not easy to get past such an action. It is still Spike's body and face. He is not the same person anymore, that's for sure, but it is not the kind of thing you just let go. And Buffy had the courage to forgive him.

 

[Flannen]

I agree, no one deserves to be raped at all, no matter how mean they are to their boyfriends. Also, the attempted rape wasn't becuase Buffy said no to Spike, it's because they were both indeed abusing eachother.

I don't really understand what you mean here? From what I can recall about that episode it's absolutely because Buffy said no. I cannot reconcile aligning what Spike tried to do with Buffy's sexual appetite.

But this is rapidly going to get off-topic and move away from the question/s you posed initially.

 

[white avenger]

I think that Spike was simply trying to reestablish the relationship the way that it was throughout their time together prior to "Seeing Red." That in no way excuses what he did, but forced, violent, even destructive sex was pretty much the norm during that time as Buffy tried to take out all of her frustrations and anger on the only being in Sunnydale who could survive that kind of punishment. Once more, that in no way excuses what Spike did or tried to do, but the episode was necessary, as painful as it was, because it provided something that nothing less could have provided. In order to attempt to atone for a virtually inexcusable act, Spike attempted an absolutely unimaginable act. Nothing short of his assault on Buffy could have possibly convinced him to undertake the regaining of his soul.

When Spike called Buffy "The One," he was speaking the exact truth, probably more than he even realized. She turned a hero (Angel) into a monster, and a monster (Spike) into a Champion. No less of a woman could have caused that drastic a change in, not one, but two men. And no less of a woman could have taught two such men how to love, completely and unselfishly.

 

[TheGrandmaster]

Woah I probably should have read the original post more carefully before posted. Gotta say that Buffy can't be held responsible for the rape thing in any way. It never the victims fault in any rape case, there is no excuse to do that to a human being. Of course Spike was a soulless monster, and the way Buffy treated him was ill-advised at best, but you can't say that she is therefore responsible for Spike's actions.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Alright, so I agree that nobody, ever, deserves to be raped. Kinda like in Billy: Lilah may be a "vicious bi***", but that doesn't make it OK to beat her down like that.

But, as others have mentioned, Buffy wasn't completely the victim. Spike didn't wake up that morning set to rape Buffy, he went to talk to her. He thought it he was right. Their whole relationship was contradictions, no- yes no- yes no- yes, and violent physical power struggles was not uncommon. The whole thing was a power struggle, they both wanted to end up on top.

Buffy had been pushing Spike around for years, taking advantage of him, using him for her own benefit, trying to punish him like she felt she needed to be punished. Spike, being soulless, didn't understand that there were boundaries in their relationship. She was hurting him, he'd hurt her back, it was this whole punishment/ control thing. In the AR, he was trying to get some power back, and he didn't understand that no meant no. After being in such a twisted relationship, he WAS kinda twisted. He was so used to them hurting each other in this way that he didn't know when to back off, he was almost maniacal, out of his mind really.

It was confusing, and it seemed like the thing to do to "make her feel". They were in a very dark place, and he really didn't know how he was supposed to act. As I said, she had wanted him to hurt her, at the same time she was hurting him. The beating in Dead Things was just as bad as the AR, if not worse. He thought it was what she wanted.

Of course, that's my "clinical" explanation with a neutral eye that I get only from reading scripts. 😀

When you're actually watching it... Goodness, it's scary. I really don't see why Spike didn't back off, he definitely would've been able to smell her fear and her lack of arousal. The way he grabbed her ankle and pulled her down when she was trying to get away... *Shudders* One of the freakiest things ever. It wasn't excusable, and a horrible way to attack someone. Rape is never OK, whether completely intentional or not.

Still, Buffy forgave him, and once he got his soul he was as sweet and gentle as a kitty. 😀

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Did you just blame the victim for a attempted rape?

I am so angry right now, I need to come back to this thread later.

I know that it's stupid to "poke the bear", but Spike was dangerous in the sexual way way before the deeply depressed and suicidal Buffy gave in to Spike's relentless nagging.

I know that in hindsight, she's probably beating herself up over not staking Spike as soon as he was chipped and helpless (while at the same time being proud over the man Spike is today, I expect conflicting feelings there) but how can anyone blame Buffy for what happened in that bathroom? Specially since she resently before that finally got the strength to end it with Spike, bot for her sake AND his.

 

[frankie]

I think it's just the image of seeing Buffy so weak and helpless in that moment that sticks in peoples mind. It's hard not to relate it back to Spike. It's also due to how unusual the character of Spike is. When he didn't have a soul, he fought by her side, mourned for her and swore to protect her family and friends, yet here he is trying to rape her. It's the difficulty in distinguishing Spike with a soul and Spike without a soul that makes you wonder would Spike with a soul do the same thing - and that's why i think people judge him on it.
Personally the rape didn't surprise me, I always felt Spike with the chip was just a dormant demon. Personality traits of William were more to the surface because the demon had nothing else to do. When it realized it could still hurt Buffy, it was only a matter of time before something horrible happened.
As for the rape being partially Buffy's fault, in my best Irish slang "That's complete and utter bollocks". No and stop are the words that come to mind, no matter how much angry, abusive sex they had in the past, when she said "No" and "Stop", that's all that matters - not her fault.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I calmed down a bit now. *trying to not think of my friends who have been raped*

Souled Spike can't be blamed for what he did without a soul. You might as well blame a person who get's drugged by someone and go on a killing spree because of the effects of the drug and wake up the next morning, feeling like Hell.

Spike was never a person in the "true" sense. He had been in a twisted relationship for over a hundrd years, where his girlfriend worshiped the ground her family's killer walked on. That he and Dru seemed to torture each other from time to time also adds to Spike's twistedness(remember in Lover's walk, where he thought it was a perfectly fine idea to torture Dru untiled she liked him again?).

I think that he had an idea of what a good boyfriend should be like, because in season 5 and 6 he tried, but he failed over and over again. Not to say he thought he was doing something constructive to her in the bathroom; I think he just lost control. Of course, the line "Why didn't I do it" later on when he remembers the rape in his crypt makes me think that he might have tried it anyway, if he had thought through it, in case he thought it would have worked. Like Wishing Oceans said, Buffy and his relationship and had had a violent streak since the night they first met, so from his point of view, rape might have been a good option.

After all, he lived happily with Dru, a twisted girl who loved the guy who had torn her apart, so he probably thought he could "mold" Buffy into being able to be with him.

He was a twisted puppy, a animal I can't feel true hatred for. Mainly pity and disgust.

Now I just feel the random "Oh God, grow up moment" when he has a soul.

 

[Kana]

As I think it's been said, and also I've often said, the lines are less defined with Spuffy and Spike.

I also as I said here, it's was not only Buffy's guard that was let down, it was our own. We always believed Angelus was a villain, however Spike, soulless or not, from Season 5 onwards has declared his love for her at every opportunity.

I don't actually judge Spike as a soulled being any more than I judge Angelus, but also look at their situations differently because they are different. We can say Buffy should not blamed for bringing it on to herself, but we can say that Spike wasn't being deliberately malicious as Angelus was. It's about analyzing the circumstances and appreciating their differences without placing undue blame or adopting biases.

 

[Kean]

This is why I cannot stand Spike: people trying to rationalise and provide reasons to why he tried to rape Buffy.

Apply this situation to any other two people in fandom or out of it and I can will almost gaurantee that people would not be offering reasons why the attempted rapist did what he did.

Also, it wasn't just out of nowhere. Spike had been pursuing Buffy in an almost relentless fashion and with openly sexual intentions, for months! Longer even.

If season two or three Spike had tried this I think I could be comfortable with him not having a soul as means of an explanation. But I cannot, under any circumstances, accept that excuse for the vampire who took a savage beating for Buffy and Dawn and who looked after Dawn after Buffy's death, a vampire who showed that he was capable of both love, tenderness, compassion. Spike was clearly not just a pawn to his demon, he had control and he acted from an emotional stand point.

He knew what he was doing, the way he pursued Buffy, how he preyed on her insecurities during season six just to keep her with him (the balcony scene comes to mind) do nothing but make me feel that Spike, instead of being a noble individual is actually one of the biggest bastards we ever came across in the Buffyverse.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I know that it's stupid to "poke the bear", but Spike was dangerous in the sexual way way before the deeply depressed and suicidal Buffy gave in to Spike's relentless nagging.

Hm, could you elaborate on this issue? 😀 I don't see how Spike was "dangerous in the sexual way" before OMWF, nor do I see "Spike's relentless nagging."

Buffy was the one who started the relationship. After trying to get a "crumb" in Crush, he never even tried to get her to date him.

Buffy kissed him first in OMWF. Buffy kissed him first in Smashed. SHE started the relationship! As writer Drew Greenberg said about Buffy in Smashed, "finally taking what she wants, and what she's been afraid to admit that she wants." 😀 I don't see how Spike "nagged" her at all, he was a perfectly gentlemanly friend to her when she came back. A confidante.

And how was he dangerous exactly? He chained her up in Crush, sure, but he also saved her from Dru, his past lover, and nothing of the sort ever happened again.

Also, it wasn't just out of nowhere. Spike had been pursuing Buffy in an almost relentless fashion and with openly sexual intentions, for months! Longer even.

Give me a for instance? 😀

OK, this is a very sensitive topic, but I'll just say this: Rape is never acceptable, ever. BUT, I think a lot of you, especially the huge Buffy lovers, are glossing over Buffy's part in this. She didn't deserve to be raped, but she certainly wasn't an innocent victim in this case either.