The whole grudge on Spike....

[Kean]

Skytteflickan88 agrees: I'm curious: How do you feel about souled Spike? Hate that "version" of him too?

I wouldn't say I hate him when he gets a soul but I have no real interest in him, if that makes sense? His story just isn't one that I'm invested in. He has some lovely moments with Buffy in S7 but he isn't someone that I admire/care about.

 

[TheGrandmaster]

This is why I cannot stand Spike: people trying to rationalise and provide reasons to why he tried to rape Buffy.

This isn't a very rational reason to dislike a character. You're judging the character on other people's perception of him. If you have your own view thats fine, but's it's not particularly objective to base your view of something on the opinions of others.


-----------------------------------------------------------
In response to Skytte:
Yeah, it's fair enough that you may be affected by other peoples view, but when trying to argue a point you need to be objective and consider only the relevant information.
In this case the relevant information is: whatever Spike does or says on the show.
Irrelevant information is: whatever so-and-so said about him.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Hm, could you elaborate on this issue? 😀 I don't see how Spike was "dangerous in the sexual way" before OMWF, nor do I see "Spike's relentless nagging."

Buffy was the one who started the relationship. After trying to get a "crumb" in Crush, he never even tried to get her to date him.

I meant that she gave in in "Smashed", not "OMWF". She did give him hope in OMWF and Tabula Rasa, which made him "nag" again.

And Spike has always been dangerous in the sexual way, as in he's not exactly against rape.

SPIKE: Mmm. That smell... Your neck...I haven't had a woman in weeks.

WILLOW: Whoa! No! Hold it!

SPIKE: Well, unless you count that shopkeeper.

WILLOW: Now, now, hold on! I-I'll do your spell for you, and, and, and I'll get you Drusilla back, but, but there will be no bottle-in-face, and there will be no 'having' of any kind with me. Alright?

/Lover walk

It took me a couple or re-watches, but yeah, I cracked the "code". Poor shop keeper, I hope she was dead when he started.

He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who just tortures and kills, but skips rape in case he's "in the mood". Depends, I guess, in case he was "faithful" to Dru when they were together.

Kinda makes me wonder what would have happened in case Buffy would had kept saying no and she lost her slayer powers... *brrr*

OK, this is a very sensitive topic, but I'll just say this: Rape is never acceptable, ever. BUT, I think a lot of you, especially the huge Buffy lovers, are glossing over Buffy's part in this. She didn't deserve to be raped, but she certainly wasn't an innocent victim in this case either.

She was a deeply depressed suicidal girl. I don't blame her for sleeping with a dangerous massmurderer to feel better, therefore leading him on or whatever. I'm not saying she was smart, and sure, one can say that Buffy's descisions gave Spike the idea that rape could work, but she is most definitly a innocent victim.

Not sure if I overreacted to your statement but I wanted that said.

Personally, I like to blame no one for the attempted rape, since I consider Spike to not be human, so I can't hold him to human standards. He was always a dangerous animal, a shell of a human, that needed to be put down for people's safety. Until he got a soul and became a person, someone who was responsible for for his deeds.

 

[Kean]

Give me a for instance? 😀

Stealing her underwear
Showing her what Riley was doing
Setting up his little shrine to her
Getting Harmony to role play
Chaining her up
Trying to kiss her in Fool for Love
The Buffybot
The constant innuendo and leering glances
His tireless pursuit after OMWF

All of these things, whether they were big or small, made Spike's intentions towards Buffy clear. He pursued her and it was only when she was emotionally crippled that she finally gave in. When she did give in he continued to tell her all the things about herself that she feared were true actually were i.e. coming back wrong and her friends not wanting her.

OK, this is a very sensitive topic, but I'll just say this: Rape is never acceptable, ever. BUT, I think a lot of you, especially the huge Buffy lovers, are glossing over Buffy's part in this. She didn't deserve to be raped, but she certainly wasn't an innocent victim in this case either.

Maybe it's because I am a woman that I feel so strongly about this. I'm biased for several reasons but I put it to you this way:

If your friend/sister someone you cared about was in a destructive relationship where they both treated each other like crap and "The Boyfriend" tried to force himself on "her" would you think that she played her part in it and "wasn't innocent" in the attempted rape?

I honestly worry about that, about people watching that scene but loving him as a character and trying to reconcile the two.

I see the same thing happen on Gossip Girl with the character Chuck Bass. He tried to force himself on Jenny (who was 14 at the time!) in the first season. Throughout the rest of that season he falls for the lead and becomes instantly tortured/romantic and girls are totally endeared to him. I watched an ep last night with my sister where Jenny finally confronts Chuck about the incident and my sister felt bad for Chuck! She thought Jenny was being too mean!

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I can understand your anger Kean. I think I feel something similar in some cases.

I hate when people take the side of the rapist (even tough I have a soft side for Spike, but to be fair, I thought he needed to be killed since season 4). That's why I put down the Anita Blake books after book 4, because I had a feeling I would not like how the main vampire guy was going to be portayed.

I also almost stopped reading Buffy fanfics completely after a fic where Willow got raped by Angel, and a fan commented "They're so good for each other" orsomething like that. That was not exactly how I read the fic, and I was afraid the writer actually meant for it to be romantic, instead of twisted and wrong like I first thought.

Fans' view of a character can sometimes effect my view of the character more than the character's actions.

That being said, I'm kind of glass halfful about Spike. He's a horrible person who sometimes does nice things, and I appreciate that and like his arc. But until he got a soul, he needed to be put down, and he was in no way generally a admireable character.

 

[Kean]

I can understand your anger Kean. I think I feel something similar in some cases.

I hate when people take the side of the rapist (even tough I have a soft side for Spike, but to be fair, I thought he needed to be killed since season 4). That's why I put down the Anita Blake books after book 4, because I had a feeling I would not like how the main vampire guy was going to be portayed.

I also almost stopped reading Buffy fanfics completely after a fic where Willow got raped by Angel, and a fan commented "They're so good for each other" orsomething like that. That was not exactly how I read the fic, and I was afraid the writer actually meant for it to be romantic, instead of twisted and wrong like I first thought.

Fans' view of a character can sometimes effect my view of the character more than the character's actions.

That being said, I'm kind of glass halfful about Spike. He's a horrible person who sometimes does nice things, and I appreciate that and like his arc. But until he got a soul, he needed to be put down, and he was in no way generally a admireable character.

My view on Spike is very much of my own creation, and the reasons I feel the way I do are very much my own.

I have never been in the position that Buffy was in but I have been in situations in clubs were guys have cornered me or on one occassion caught hold of my wrists really tightly and just refused to let go no matter how I pleaded with him and kept pulling me away from my friends and telling me that "I wanted him". I was just lucky that my friend Niall came along and got him thrown out. I also know that this kinda thing happens all the time and I suppose my main concern is the message it is sending out.

I just worry about the mixed message being sent out, especially on show that is supposed to empower women.

Ok, I'm gona bow out of this thread now, I've said my piece.

🙂

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Stealing her underwear
Showing her what Riley was doing
Setting up his little shrine to her
Getting Harmony to role play
Chaining her up
Trying to kiss her in Fool for Love
The Buffybot
The constant innuendo and leering glances
His tireless pursuit after OMWF

True, (although I don't think that the Riley thing really counts), but he never tried to force her into a sexual relationship.

All of these things, whether they were big or small, made Spike's intentions towards Buffy clear. He pursued her and it was only when she was emotionally crippled that she finally gave in. When she did give in he continued to tell her all the things about herself that she feared were true actually were i.e. coming back wrong and her friends not wanting her.

I don't view it as "giving in" as much as taking what she wanted and needed. She wanted Spike, it wasn't like she thought he was gross but was tired of rejecting him. 🙂

I have to agree that I don't like how he was playing into her insecurities, but honestly, he's always been the guy who tells it like it is, without dressing up the truth to make it look pretty. He's honest, if not maybe a tad manipulative, so she knows she can believe him. It's just Spike. 😀

If your friend/sister someone you cared about was in a destructive relationship where they both treated each other like crap and "The Boyfriend" tried to force himself on "her" would you think that she played her part in it and "wasn't innocent" in the attempted rape?

Well, I don't think that they're the same instances at all. Both Spike and Buffy are stronger and darker creatures than humans, so hitting Buffy isn't like hitting anyone else and vice- versa. Also, as one of the writers said, Buffy and Spike communicated through violence. And most of the time it was probably fun, at least in the beginning. 😀

Also, for the case you supplied, I'd be pissed at the boyfriend but I wouldn't dismiss my Sister's actions either.

I honestly worry about that, about people watching that scene but loving him as a character and trying to reconcile the two.

First off, I don't particularly love Spike, but I don't hate him for the AR. Just like a don't hate SOULED Willow for flaying a man, and I don't hate Xander for leaving Anya at the Alter, and I don't hate Buffy for beating Spike up and leaving him to die because she was ashamed of herself.

Spike was twisted, confused, and in a bad place. The AR was a necessary part of his development as a character (realizes he needs to get a soul) and his relationship with Buffy. As said in Touched, they've seen the best and the worst of each other, they know EXACTLY who the other person is with all their faults, and they still love each other. And I think that that's a beautiful thing. 🙂 They've been through so many horrible things together, and they still were able to move past it, because life never stops. You may as well use the best of it. 😀

I also almost stopped reading Buffy fanfics completely after a fic where Willow got raped by Angel, and a fan commented "They're so good for each other" orsomething like that. That was not exactly how I read the fic, and I was afraid the writer actually meant for it to be romantic, instead of twisted and wrong like I first thought.

Yeah, I read a similar fanfic where Angelus tortured and raped Willow in S2 I think, and then all of a sudden Willow fell in love with Angelus, like, a day afterwards. :confused5

That being said, I'm kind of glass halfful about Spike. He's a horrible person who sometimes does nice things, and I appreciate that and like his arc. But until he got a soul, he needed to be put down, and he was in no way generally a admireable character.

OK, you're entitled to you're own opinion, but I think that that's WAY too harsh. 🙂 He's a vampire: They're not people, and they shouldn't be held to the same standards as one. He wanted to kill Buffy and co? Well, they wanted to kill him back. He was freakin' MAGNANIMOUS, imo, for actually helping the Scoobies at all! He's evil, he could've just set their house on fire or hired someone to kill them or something like that. But he didn't.

He kills a race/ species opposite his own, or rather he used to. Well, so does Buffy, and not for food. Calling him a "horrible person" isn't only unfair in my opinion, it's politically incorrect. 😀

Why did he need to be put down? Because he was vampire? Should vampires put down humans for being human? Nahh. 😀

Sure he was, he was evil, but he still generally was a "good" character, or at least was able to be good. No other soulless vamp really accomplished that.

Really, if you look at every single bad deed each of the characters have committed, NONE of them are innocent little souled Angels at all. They have a soul, yet they still do horrible things:

Willow: Cheating on Oz, the crazy spell fiasco of Something Blue, mind- raping Tara, flaying Warren, kicking Buffy out in Empty Places

Xander: Almost raping Buffy when he was evil (The Pack), cheating on Cordy, casting the love spell for mean revenge, lying to Buffy about Willow saying "kick his ass", trying to kill Spike in Entropy, calling Sweet in OMWF, leaving Anya at the Alter, kicking Buffy out in Empty Places

Giles: Drugging Buffy in Helpless then lying about it, his "bad magic" childhood thing, leaving Buffy when she was most vulnerable in Tabula Rasa, trying to kill Spike in Lies My Parents Told Me

Buffy: Stealing weaponry, sneaking out of class (Both from Bad Girls), not telling anyone Angel was back, being a total bitca in When She Was Bad, leaving after killing Angel without telling anyone, ditching her friends for her boyfriend in S4, lying to her friends in S6, beating up Spike and leaving him to die in Dead Things, punching Faith in S7, etc.

None of them are flawless, and they all have souls. Remember Vamp!Willow and Vamp!Xander? None of them were half as "good" as soulless Spike. 😀


See, I'm willing to defend "Spike the Rapist" because in no way do I view him as a rapist. They were in a bad place, he lost control, they got past it. 😀

 

[Misty]

Okay, I'm sorry if I'm confusing any of you, but I didn't mean that it was Buffy's fault what Spike tried to do to her. But what I mean't was that Buffy and Spike were in a sexual and abusive relationship, and because of that Spike kept asking her for sex because she was having sex with him for sometime which caused Spike to go crazy with sex and try to rape her. I don't think saying that Buffy was responsible was the right thing to say because she wasn't demanding Spike to do it or know that he was going to do it, but my point is that Buffy shouldn't have had sex with him in "Smashed" and the rest of the sixth season because she sort of made Spike think that she wanted to have sex with him by having sex with him. And Kean, none of us meant to offend you, it's just that some of us and even me didn't use the right words to explain our opinions on this and make it clear. Also, I'm a woman too and I am indeed very against rape, but what I was trying to say is that I don't think that people should compare soulless Spike with souled Angel because they've both done bad things without souls. I've had this girl harass me by calling me a bunch of times when I tried to tell her that she wasn't my friend and that I never gave her my phone number, which is sort like stalking but alittle different, and also she wasn't a man and she didn't do what Angel did, but Kean I can relate to you in some of these situations, because I think that men can be bad to us woman, which isn't right.

 

[Kean]

Okay, I'm sorry if I'm confusing any of you, but I didn't mean that it was Buffy's fault what Spike tried to do to her. But what I mean't was that Buffy and Spike were in a sexual and abusive relationship, and because of that Spike kept asking her for sex because she was having sex with him for sometime which caused Spike to go crazy with sex and try to rape her. I don't think saying that Buffy was responsible was the right thing to say because she wasn't demanding Spike to do it or know that he was going to do it, but my point is that Buffy shouldn't have had sex with him in "Smashed" and the rest of the sixth season because she sort of made Spike think that she wanted to have sex with him by having sex with him. And Kean, none of us meant to offend you, it's just that some of us and even me didn't use the right words to explain our opinions on this and make it clear. Also, I'm a woman too and I am indeed very against rape, but what I was trying to say is that I don't think that people should compare soulless Spike with souled Angel because they've both done bad things without souls. I've had this girl harass me by calling me a bunch of times when I tried to tell her that she wasn't my friend and that I never gave her my phone number, which is sort like stalking but alittle different, and also she wasn't a man and she didn't do what Angel did, but Kean I can relate to you in some of these situations, because I think that men can be bad to us woman, which isn't right.

If you know me you'll know that I am not a man-hater or a pro-woman, we can do no wrong kind of person. 90% of the greatest friends I have are men and I don't have some jaded notion in my head of all men being dogs.

The way I reacted wasn't exactly right either, it was a very personal reaction. I didn't mean to offend anyone in doing that either.

This particular situation though just gets under my skin because to me it the message it gives out that what happened in Seeing Red is acceptable. When I see, what I perceive to be a defense of those actions, I kinda go Cave!Kean! about it.

I stand by everything I said but sorry guys if I offended any of you.

🙂

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Okay Wishing Oceans, I probably shouldn’t have said he’s a horrible person, since I in a earlier post said he was like a dangerous animal, and I didn’t hold him to human standards. I should have said horrible "thing" or whatever.

OK, you're entitled to you're own opinion, but I think that that's WAY too harsh. He's a vampire: They're not people, and they shouldn't be held to the same standards as one. He wanted to kill Buffy and co? Well, they wanted to kill him back. He was freakin' MAGNANIMOUS, imo, for actually helping the Scoobies at all! He's evil, he could've just set their house on fire or hired someone to kill them or something like that. But he didn't.

Okay, he tried to kill Buffy before she tried to kill him, so that argument doesn't fly with me.

I think he’s a evil ‘evil thing’(to use Kate’s term).Not because he eats human, but because he hurts human. And he enjoys it. A lot. That’s why he should have been put down. So yes, vampires should be put down because they’re vampires, because I generally take the sides of humans and want them to be alive and unharmed(of course, Spike was scene hurting demons too, so it’s for the innocent demons sake too). So I don’t agree with this logic:

Why did he need to be put down? Because he was vampire? Should vampires put down humans for being human? Nahh.

He killed, he tortured, he raped. Saying that the other characters did bad things too doesn’t make his deeds less bad(specially since their bad deeds are nothing compared to his)

Btw, blaming Xander for what he did in the pack when he was possessed? Way harsh. And I don’t think Buffy thought Spike was dying in Dead Things.

See, I'm willing to defend "Spike the Rapist" because in no way do I view him as a rapist. They were in a bad place, he lost control, they got past it.

Didn’t you read my Lover’s walk quote? And remember that he said “Why didn’t I do it?” after the bathroom scene?

I'm not saying "Your of thinking is wrong", btw, hope it doesn't come across that way.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

And Kean, I can't remember everything you said, but I don't think you crossed the line in any post. Of course I can also go Cave!Sky in rape arguments so I'm not exactly objective.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Okay, he tried to kill Buffy before she tried to kill him, so that argument doesn't fly with me.

She would've if she'd been given the chance. 🙂

I think he’s a evil ‘evil thing’(to use Kate’s term).Not because he eats human, but because he hurts human. And he enjoys it. A lot. That’s why he should have been put down. So yes, vampires should be put down because they’re vampires, because I generally take the sides of humans and want them to be alive and unharmed(of course, Spike was scene hurting demons too, so it’s for the innocent demons sake too). So I don’t agree with this logic:

I suppose that's all a perspective thing. 🙂 I don't believe that anyone should be superior to somebody else because of their race, but I suppose it's all how you view it.

He killed, he tortured, he raped. Saying that the other characters did bad things too doesn’t make his deeds less bad(specially since their bad deeds are nothing compared to his

They are seeing as they had a soul when they killed or betrayed or whatever, and Spike didn't. He wasn't a human, and it's in his natural vampiric nature to kill humans. I don't see anything wrong with that. 😀

By the way, do you think that Wes is a "horrible person" too? Perfectly ensouled, he betrayed Angel and Co and stole Angel's baby, had a sexual relationship with "the enemy", killed many people, some totally innocent, nonchalantly, killed someone who he thought was his father, was willing to torture someone without knowing why, stabbed his best friend who made a mistake, etc? 😉

Btw, blaming Xander for what he did in the pack when he was possessed? Way harsh. And I don’t think Buffy thought Spike was dying in Dead Things.

He was under a evil influence, just like Spike was. 😀

Buffy beat him so badly that I doubt he would've been able to move, then left him there for the sun. That's killing him. 🙂

Didn’t you read my Lover’s walk quote? And remember that he said “Why didn’t I do it?” after the bathroom scene?

I did, but really, it's all interpretation. Most vamps view sex and biting and blood as the same thing, just like slayers do with killing and sex, so it's kinda hard to tell. He may have just been talking about biting her, especially since raping a dead woman would've been pretty gross and not fun. 😀

The "why didn't I do it" was him questioning his evilness, I'd presume. Maybe not though, I have a habit of skipping over that episode...

[/quote]I'm not saying "Your of thinking is wrong", btw, hope it doesn't come across that way.[/QUOTE]

Oh no, it's all in good humor. 😀 I'm a debate person, so I'm willing to argue any and every side of it. 😀

 

[Emzzie]

Ok, I'm going to throw my two cents in.
What Spike did was wrong. I love the character, but there are no excuses. I see souless Spike and Spike-with-soul as two different people, just as I see Angelus and Angel as two different people. So I blame souless Spike for it and I will not try to defend him because there is nothing to defend. On the other hand, I do not blame Spike-with-a-soul because he had no control over what demony Spike did. Just as I don't blame Angel for Angelus killing Jenny or anything else Angelus did.

I definitley see what CordyandXander is saying. Why don't people hold Angel accountable for what he did as Angelus when we have these debates? I think it is because Angelus did not love Buffy, while souless Spike did. Spike should have not been able to do that because he loved her. When debating that though, we need to remember he did not have a soul. Spike-with-a-soul did not do anything wrong. You can try and say that Spike-with-a-soul would have raped her too, but we will never know that, thus it is unfair to blame him.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I suppose that's all a perspective thing. I don't believe that anyone should be superior to somebody else because of their race, but I suppose it's all how you view it.

I don’t consider Spike bad because he’s a vampire, I consider him bad because he likes to hurt people. Which happens to be a trait of his race.

In case only some vamps were bad, I would say "Only some vamps need tp get killed", but that doesn't seem to be the case with that race/specie.

By the way, do you think that Wes is a "horrible person" too? Perfectly ensouled, he betrayed Angel and Co and stole Angel's baby, had a sexual relationship with "the enemy", killed many people, some totally innocent, nonchalantly, killed someone who he thought was his father, was willing to torture someone without knowing why, stabbed his best friend who made a mistake, etc?

He tried to save a baby. I can never be mad at him for that. I totally support him. Maybe he thought he had to act alone, to make the baby safer?

And sleeping with the enemy was a bad choice, but he was in such a bad place, and it didn’t hurt people, so I don’t think it was horrible of him. He was just sad and needed to feel better.

What innocent people did he kill and who was he willing to torture?

And he killed his father because he thought his father was going to kill Fred. Killing a killer is good in my book.

I’m not sure what I think about the stabbing tough. Gunn said he thought someone would be hurt, so a knife in the gut might just have been the right way to teach him the lesson better.

And in case someone I loved was killed because a friend of mine was so selfish, I think I would have done the same.

Not sure if that means Wes is good anyway, or that I’m really bad.

I did, but really, it's all interpretation. Most vamps view sex and biting and blood as the same thing, just like slayers do with killing and sex, so it's kinda hard to tell. He may have just been talking about biting her, especially since raping a dead woman would've been pretty gross and not fun.

I guess you could be right. Maybe he meant biting. Doubt it tough. The way he said it *brrr*

And Spike drinks blood, kills people and lives in crypts. I doubt he had the same view of what’s fun and gross as you. I hope 😉

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I don’t consider Spike bad because he’s a vampire, I consider him bad because he likes to hurt people. Which happens to be a trait of his race.

In case only some vamps were bad, I would say "Only some vamps need tp get killed", but that doesn't seem to be the case with that race/specie.

So, you think that all vamps need to die because they hurt humans?

Should all Slayers die because they hurt vampires?

Double standardss *Sing- song voice* 😀

Bad, good, all that stuff is just perspective. From a vamps point of view, humans are a tasty, stupid meal. From a humans point of view, vamps are dangerous predators. It's all just view, nothing is truly good or evil. And humans are not gods, I don't see why it matters if someone kills them. Many of them are just as brutal and savagery, if not more so, than any demon. 😀

He tried to save a baby. I can never be mad at him for that. I totally support him. Maybe he thought he had to act alone, to make the baby safer?

He made a hasty choice without talking to anyone. Forgivable, but bad.

And sleeping with the enemy was a bad choice, but he was in such a bad place, and it didn’t hurt people, so I don’t think it was horrible of him. He was just sad and needed to feel better.

It's the same thing as Spuffy S6: He was using her, and she was kinda using him back.

What innocent people did he kill and who was he willing to torture?

Innocent people he killed: That man in A Hole in the World who thought they should work on something other than Miss Burkle's case. He just took out a gun, shot him, went back to writing, and told his secretary to bring any other employees who weren't helping Fred to his office, presumably so he could kill them too. He shot Knox, who wasn't exactly innocent, but still.

Gunn and Harm were about to torture Knox, Wes walked in, asked what they were doing, they said torturing Knox, he said "good. why?" 😀

And he killed his father because he thought his father was going to kill Fred. Killing a killer is good in my book.

Gunn's a killer, should they kill him too? Angel as well? Connor? Faith?

I’m not sure what I think about the stabbing tough. Gunn said he thought someone would be hurt, so a knife in the gut might just have been the right way to teach him the lesson better.

And in case someone I loved was killed because a friend of mine was so selfish, I think I would have done the same.

Gunn didn't think it would hurt anyone he cared about. 🙂

Not sure if that means Wes is good anyway, or that I’m really bad.

Well, it's an indication that you favor some characters over others. 😀

And Spike drinks blood, kills people and lives in crypts. I doubt he had the same view of what’s fun and gross as you. I hope 😉

Humans eat fellow animals, in some societies eat EACH OTHER, kill for fun, kill for sport, and many other disgusting things. Some humans are forced to live on streets or in alleys. So... Hm, which species is more gross... 😀

 

[Black Eye Guy]

On Buffys part in the rape, I'm always a little horrified that people actually try and make excuses, or justify Spike in anyway for that. You can't say they had a violent relationship so Spike didn't understand, becasue none of the other times it happened was Buffy yelling 'No, Stop' and almost crying with horror.

What Spike didn't understand was love, he connected sex and love and didn't understand that sex doesn't mean love.

And Wishing Oceans, Spike totally falls into the verging on Stalker / sexual predator category easily for any one of the things on Keans list. But most importantly you don't need any other example then the attempted rape in Seeing Red.

I would like to 100% agree that Spike shouldn't be judged for the attempted rape on Buffy, as he had no soul.

But what I find the hardest part about this impossible argument is Spuffy fans themselves.

I just wanna point out it's not Spuffy fans that make me dislike Spuffy, it's that Spike turned into a snore fest from about season 5 onwards.

But for this argument, the part I don't like is that Spuffy fans will go on and on about how great Spike was in Season 6, and how he was in love with her and one of the good guys. They'll say how Spikes was an anomaly in Vampire world because he kinda became the souled version of himself without actually having the soul. And then they want to be able to wave off the attempted rape, by whipping out the No soul argument, and I don't think it's fair to say the first part then the second.

And when you argue this point in discussion, it's almost imediatly followed by a, thats fine drop all the stuff from before he got a soul, it's from Season 7 on where Spuffy actually starts - but very few people actually believe that as in other thread they will be using points from season 6, or have banners with season 6 Spuffy moments.

The way I look at Spike is as the whole without deleting parts of his story, he was a vampire who got a muzzle it humanized him, he tried to rape Buffy, he got a soul and the humanized part of him was still there, which is why Buffy can never love Spike, but has feelings for him, and why he says "No you don't"

(My final point on Spuffy fans, is when the argument goes on past the points above, the good old "The attempted rape was so out of character, and clearly just a plot device" - which only shows crazy delusions, becasue 1, totally in character - soulless killing machine, and 2, duh! everything is a plot device, but since he does it, that makes it part of his character)
*Also I don't mean ALL Spuffy fans, this has just been my expieriences with this particular discussion in the past*

 

[Emzzie]

I'm a spuffy fan. But I don't think he was a good guy in season 6, or 5 or whatever. In shows and stories I've always been drawn to the bad boys. Most likely why I did not like him as much in season 7! As I already said, I think souless Spike should be blamed but Spike-with-a-soul (as I like to call him 😉) should not be blamed. No excuses for souless Spike, he was evil and it was wrong. I hate these types of discussions, just because it is such a sensitive subject and people are always going to dispute this.

Gez, Spuffies just are not having a good day today eh? 😛 As I was reading Beg's post as a spuffy, I was feeling a bit unloved!! That was quite an attack at them. In all seriousness though, people need to stop making excuses. Nothing will ever excuse rape. It was WRONG, period. Spike himself knew that.

 

[white avenger]

(Sorry, I don't know how to do the multiple quote thing, so bear with me please)


***What Spike didn't understand was love, he connected sex and love and didn't understand that sex doesn't mean love.***

He understood love as well as Angel ever did before meeting Buffy. Neither man had ever had any sort of romantic relationship, either as human or vampire. At least, not that were shown.


***And Wishing Oceans, Spike totally falls into the verging on Stalker / sexual predator category easily for any one of the things on Keans list. But most importantly you don't need any other example then the attempted rape in Seeing Red.***

Once more, Angel did his own share of stalking, and we can go on forever about Spike, the attempted rapist as compared to Angel, the torturer and murderer.


***I just wanna point out it's not Spuffy fans that make me dislike Spuffy, it's that Spike turned into a snore fest from about season 5 onwards.***

Maybe for you, but certainly not for all of us. Quite the opposite, in fact, at least for me.

***But for this argument, the part I don't like is that Spuffy fans will go on and on about how great Spike was in Season 6, and how he was in love with her and one of the good guys. They'll say how Spikes was an anomaly in Vampire world because he kinda became the souled version of himself without actually having the soul. And then they want to be able to wave off the attempted rape, by whipping out the No soul argument, and I don't think it's fair to say the first part then the second.

And when you argue this point in discussion, it's almost imediatly followed by a, thats fine drop all the stuff from before he got a soul, it's from Season 7 on where Spuffy actually starts - but very few people actually believe that as in other thread they will be using points from season 6, or have banners with season 6 Spuffy moments.***

Spike fans defend him and focus on his redeeming qualities, not his shortcomings. Sort of like Angel fans do for Angel.


***The way I look at Spike is as the whole without deleting parts of his story, he was a vampire who got a muzzle it humanized him, he tried to rape Buffy, he got a soul and the humanized part of him was still there, which is why Buffy can never love Spike, but has feelings for him, and why he says "No you don't"***

I don't delete any of the bad things that Spike did, I just choose to look at the positive things that he did, and honestly believe that they outweigh the bad,

The main thing that I, personally, like about Spike is that he has more facets than one of Willow's crystals. Some of those facets are bad, certainly, but others, the majority, I believe, were very good.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Wishing oceans

So, you think that all vamps need to die because they hurt humans?

Should all Slayers die because they hurt vampires?

Double standardss *Sing- song voice*

When I was writing I meant that vampire’s were evil because they “hurt” people, with torture and stuff. In case they just killed, quickly and without that much pain, it wouldn’t be evil. It’s not like I only eat vegetable, it’s a part of nature.

But even if vampire only killed without pain, I would still be on the slayers side. In case I found out there were vampires in the world, who could kill someone I like, I would hopefully try to kill those vamps to protect people.

So not really double standards. I just sided with humanity on the eating or getting eaten question. I think killing vamps are okay, because otherwise they’ll kill us.

Bad, good, all that stuff is just perspective. From a vamps point of view, humans are a tasty, stupid meal. From a humans point of view, vamps are dangerous predators. It's all just view, nothing is truly good or evil. And humans are not gods, I don't see why it matters if someone kills them. Many of them are just as brutal and savagery, if not more so, than any demon.

Why said Gods don’t deserve to get killed? I read a bit of mythology and I have to say, bring on the God-killing.

And I don’t think many people would say there’s a true good and a true evil, but we all have different views of it. As I said, for me causing unnecessary harm is evil.

He made a hasty choice without talking to anyone. Forgivable, but bad.

In case he has talked to Gunn and the others, they might have told Angel, and since Wes thought Angel would hurt Connor, that would have been a bad move.

Innocent people he killed: That man in A Hole in the World who thought they should work on something other than Miss Burkle's case. He just took out a gun, shot him, went back to writing, and told his secretary to bring any other employees who weren't helping Fred to his office, presumably so he could kill them too. He shot Knox, who wasn't exactly innocent, but still.

Gunn and Harm were about to torture Knox, Wes walked in, asked what they were doing, they said torturing Knox, he said "good. why?"

The shooting that office guy was bad, but wasn’t that in the knee? So not killing, but still bad. Very bad. But understandable.

And Knox had to die, definitely.

He was numb when he asked about the Knox thing and he soon asked “Why”. I think Wes kind of died with Fred, so I can’t be mad at him. But sure, he did a bad thing.

Gunn's a killer, should they kill him too? Angel as well? Connor? Faith?

How is Gunn a killer? Otherfor the shipping signing that caused Fred’s death and killing the professor, which I think is fine, since he almost got Fred killed and had done similar to other students and was likely to do it again?

And yes, Angel should be killed because he killed that demon slave, but not for any other kill. And Faith felt really bad about the people she hurt/killed, she changed, that’s different.

And Connor, I’m not sure. He really seemed okay the last we saw on him in season 5, and he’s definitely fine in the comics.

Faith and Connor are ex-killers. Wesley’s dad was about to kill someone. There’s the difference. If someone was about to shot someone you loved, wouldn’t you shot them first if you had the chance?

Gunn didn't think it would hurt anyone he cared about.

So if it had killed someone Gunn didn’t know, everything would be fine?

I’m starting to get upset now. You think that Gunn getting a stranger killed is fine and that Wes should have let his fake father kill Fred?

Humans eat fellow animals, in some societies eat EACH OTHER, kill for fun, kill for sport, and many other disgusting things. Some humans are forced to live on streets or in alleys. So... Hm, which species is more gross...

I wasn’t comparing species, I was comparing you and Spike. I said that Spike might rape a dead woman. You said he wouldn’t, because it’s gross and not fun. I said that I think Spike might disagree with you on your view of what’s fun and gross(ergo, he might think it’s fun and lovely to rape dead women, so what you think is gross and not fun has nothing to do with that he might think. Unless you think he agrees with you).

Black Eyed Guy

The way I look at Spike is as the whole without deleting parts of his story, he was a vampire who got a muzzle it humanized him, he tried to rape Buffy, he got a soul and the humanized part of him was still there, which is why Buffy can never love Spike, but has feelings for him, and why he says "No you don't"

Can you elaborate? I don’t get why Buffy can’t love Spike, and how that leads to Spike saying “No you don’t”.

(Maybe I should say that I think she meant it because Joss said so)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

What Spike didn't understand was love, he connected sex and love and didn't understand that sex doesn't mean love.

He understood love as well as Angel ever did before meeting Buffy. Neither man had ever had any sort of romantic relationship, either as human or vampire. At least, not that were shown.

Not really sure why Angel came into it, but there is a huge difference between Spike and Angel and their first true encounter with love.
When Angel fell in love with Buffy he had a soul everthing I've seen from the buffyverse has lead me to believe you can't love if you don't have a soul

And Wishing Oceans, Spike totally falls into the verging on Stalker / sexual predator category easily for any one of the things on Keans list. But most importantly you don't need any other example then the attempted rape in Seeing Red.

Once more, Angel did his own share of stalking, and we can go on forever about Spike, the attempted rapist as compared to Angel, the torturer and murderer.

I'm drawing a blank on the times ANGEL (not angelus, remember they aren't an anomaly so are separate) stole Buffys cloths to smell, built her a shrine and made Harmeny dress like her and have sexy role play scenarios with her

I just wanna point out it's not Spuffy fans that make me dislike Spuffy, it's that Spike turned into a snore fest from about season 5 onwards.

Maybe for you, but certainly not for all of us.

Very true, thats why I used the following words: "I" , "Me dislike" - honestly there up there!

But for this argument, the part I don't like is that Spuffy fans will go on and on about how great Spike was in Season 6, and how he was in love with her and one of the good guys. They'll say how Spikes was an anomaly in Vampire world because he kinda became the souled version of himself without actually having the soul. And then they want to be able to wave off the attempted rape, by whipping out the No soul argument, and I don't think it's fair to say the first part then the second.

And when you argue this point in discussion, it's almost imediatly followed by a, thats fine drop all the stuff from before he got a soul, it's from Season 7 on where Spuffy actually starts - but very few people actually believe that as in other thread they will be using points from season 6, or have banners with season 6 Spuffy moments.

Spike fans defend him and focus on his redeeming qualities, not his shortcomings. Sort of like Angel fans do for Angel.

Again with the random Angel, but again it is different our preferred vampire half of the our ship isn't an anomaly so when he did bad things he was Angelus, We don't justify Angelus actions, we justify Angels.
(We tend to think Angelus is an awesome baddie, but a dick for killing Jenny and stuff)

The main thing that I, personally, like about Spike is that he has more facets than one of Willow's crystals. Some of those facets are bad, certainly, but others, the majority, I believe, were very good.

Really? I agree that he's got good and bad points, but is he all that multifaceted (I hope thats a word), what nonSpuffys have a problem with (or me as a non spuff, as I don't want to speak for us all) is that to me, he was more like a round pebble, he could glide from killer to funny guy to attempted rapist to a snoozefest (for me) and he glided very smoothly, with great ease and little change to his overall character.