The whole grudge on Spike....

[Wishing Oceans]

On Buffys part in the rape, I'm always a little horrified that people actually try and make excuses, or justify Spike in anyway for that. You can't say they had a violent relationship so Spike didn't understand, becasue none of the other times it happened was Buffy yelling 'No, Stop' and almost crying with horror.

She said no all the time, and Joss actually said "He didn't understand the boundaries of their relationship, he was soulless."

What Spike didn't understand was love, he connected sex and love and didn't understand that sex doesn't mean love.

How'd you get to that conclusion?

OK, second thought, I see where you're coming from. He thought that Buffy loved him simply because she kept coming back. But I don't think that he misunderstood love as much as he had a twisted perception of it, like with Dru and Angel. 😀

And Wishing Oceans, Spike totally falls into the verging on Stalker / sexual predator category easily for any one of the things on Keans list. But most importantly you don't need any other example then the attempted rape in Seeing Red.

Maybe, but until SR he never actually acted on it, unless we count Crush of course.

But really? Spike, the Rapist? I just don't see that. Sure, he forced himself on her, but hadn't she done the same before?

But what I find the hardest part about this impossible argument is Spuffy fans themselves.

Ok, now that's just judging an entire culture! 😀

I just wanna point out it's not Spuffy fans that make me dislike Spuffy, it's that Spike turned into a snore fest from about season 5 onwards.

Huh. And Angel ISN'T a snorefest of brooding and whining when he's with Buffy? 😀

But for this argument, the part I don't like is that Spuffy fans will go on and on about how great Spike was in Season 6, and how he was in love with her and one of the good guys. They'll say how Spikes was an anomaly in Vampire world because he kinda became the souled version of himself without actually having the soul. And then they want to be able to wave off the attempted rape, by whipping out the No soul argument, and I don't think it's fair to say the first part then the second.

It's not very nice to generalize, BEG. 😀 In fact, I rarely hear that Spike was "great" in S6. And he WAS one of the good guys, for the most part.

Do you think that Willow isn't a good guy because she killed someone? Xander isn't a good guy because he left Anya at the alter? Wes isn't a good guy because he nonchalantly killed people?

And when you argue this point in discussion, it's almost imediatly followed by a, thats fine drop all the stuff from before he got a soul, it's from Season 7 on where Spuffy actually starts - but very few people actually believe that as in other thread they will be using points from season 6, or have banners with season 6 Spuffy moments.

Many Spuffies, like me, do enjoy earlier S6 Spuffy very much, although we know that Spuffy REALLY starts in S7. We can still enjoy some lighthearted S6, though.

The way I look at Spike is as the whole without deleting parts of his story, he was a vampire who got a muzzle it humanized him, he tried to rape Buffy, he got a soul and the humanized part of him was still there, which is why Buffy can never love Spike, but has feelings for him, and why he says "No you don't"

I DEFINITELY disagree with your analysis. More like: William started off as a gentlemanly poet in love. Was turned into a vampire, but was still sweet. Stopped following rules, but loved and took care of his mate. Went to Sunnydale, tried to kill the slayer but failed. Helped the slayer save the world, left. Came back two years later to kill her, ended up getting a chip. Went to the SG for help, started helping them. Betrayed them, but then went back to helping them. Realized he was in love with Buffy, tried to get her to love him. She was disgusted, rejected him. He sacrifices himself for her, they become friends. Become confidantes, started sleeping together. She beat him up, later broke up with him. Were back to being "friends", he tried to rape her. Left to get a soul, came back, she forgave him and took care of him. They became best friends, spent nights cuddling together, she loved him and told him, he told her not to, being all noble and stuff, then died.

(My final point on Spuffy fans, is when the argument goes on past the points above, the good old "The attempted rape was so out of character, and clearly just a plot device" - which only shows crazy delusions, becasue 1, totally in character - soulless killing machine, and 2, duh! everything is a plot device, but since he does it, that makes it part of his character)
*Also I don't mean ALL Spuffy fans, this has just been my expieriences with this particular discussion in the past*

It probably WAS a plot device, or most of it was anyway. And that was a plain bad episode.

He hadn't killed for years, and he loved Buffy. But it's as far away from black and white as possible, and we can debate 'til the end of time.

'Sides... He's SOULLESS. 😀

 

[white avenger]

Icon4 The whole grudge on Spike....
Now even though I am a Bangel as well as a Spuffy, I think it is unfair how people hold the attempted rape in Seeing Red on Spike. But what I find very odd, is that nobody ever holds Angel responsible for his actions in Season 2 of Buffy. Yes Angel didn't have soul, but neither did Spike in Seeing Red. Also, Buffy is no innocent angel in the attempted rape because she is responsible for this happening too, for the way that she just treated Spike like dirt and made the relationship very difficult and confusing. And when did ensouled Spike tried to kill Buffy in her sleep, not to mention her mom, and even succeed killing somebody that was a Scooby at one time? So I think that it's alittle unfair to compare souled Angel with ensouled Spike in a Spuffy/Bangel debate or thread.



Comments on this post
Kean agrees: Angel is totally irrelavent to this topic. A) how you've compared them isn't even relavent (or true IMO) and b) even if ANgel was in the wrong in those instances it doesn't relieve Spike of his wrongs, and he DOES do wrong.

Looking back at the beginning post of this thread, I would have to say that Angel, Angelus, and his actions most definitely ARE relevant to this topic, since it includes the double standard used to compare the actions of Angel, with a soul, with Spike, without a sou, and the fact that Angelus' actions in Season 2, are totally dismissed by devoted Bangels while they find it objectionable when Spuffy shippers try to use the same argument to excuse Spike with a soul for what soulless Spike attempted to do in "Seeing Red."

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Black Eyed Guy



Can you elaborate? I don’t get why Buffy can’t love Spike, and how that leads to Spike saying “No you don’t”.

(Maybe I should say that I think she meant it because Joss said so)

Of course.

Basically the way I see Spike is like one of those phones with the interchangeable covers.

You can make it look like 100 other phones by swapping out the covers but each time the phone always has the same features, nothing changes.

There is a core character of Spike that remains constant, we see him as a human, a vampire and a vampire with a soul, and in each of them we can see that Spike character, he goes from human to vampire and loosens up a bit and obviously ads killing to his repertoire, but there is still a distinct character that remained the same, and he still has a human like quality, he didn't want to destroy the world in season 2 like the others, he just wanted Dru.

Then the vampire Spike is given the chip, effectively muzzled, and the human side of him has no choice but to come out more.
The same Spike then tries to rape Buffy and goes off to get a soul.

a few months of crazyness aside, he still remains the same as before there isn't a huge alter ego like change like there is with Angel/Angelus, that humanity kinda stays constant through out his growth.

That to me, makes it harder to separate the Spike that Raped Buffy from the one in season 7, and I think to accept that Spike is an anomaly it has to be accepted the attempted rape if part of him also.

Sorry the last part I shouldn't have put in, to me the fact that he tried to rape her is what stops her from loving him. I think Spike spent season 5, 6 and 7 searching desperately for Buffys love and approval, and I think when she said it that she did mean it, but not in the way people ship, she was just saying that she loved him, and I think Spike at that point realized he didn't need to seek her Love, so it was ok that she didn't mean it in the way he meant, which is why he said 'No you dont'

She said no all the time, and Joss actually said "He didn't understand the boundaries of their relationship, he was soulless."

Honestly your gonna compare the No's from before with the No's in seeing red.
If a No is part of a pleasure moan it isn't a big deal, if the girl is screaming No, while crying it's a little different.
Agree about the soulless thing, but thats the point I was making about Spuffys saying Spuffy existed in S6 when he had no soul and couldn't love, but choosing to ignore the Attempted rape.

How'd you get to that conclusion?

OK, second thought, I see where you're coming from. He thought that Buffy loved him simply because she kept coming back. But I don't think that he misunderstood love as much as he had a twisted perception of it, like with Dru and Angel. 😀

No, my reasoning comes from the episode itself:

SPIKE: I know you felt it ... when I was inside you...

Close on his hands trying to open her robe. Sound of fabric ripping.

Buffy breaks partly free and starts crawling toward the door again. Spike grabs her ankle and pulls her back toward him, flips her over, pins her hands to the floor.

BUFFY: No, ow, ow! (sobbing) Please, please, Spike, please...
SPIKE: You'll feel it again, Buffy...
BUFFY: Please don't do this...
SPIKE: I'm gonna make you feel it.

He basically says he felt her love him when he was with her, so tries to force her into sex so she would feel it.

Maybe, but until SR he never actually acted on it, unless we count Crush of course.

But really? Spike, the Rapist? I just don't see that. Sure, he forced himself on her, but hadn't she done the same before?

He had harmony role play as her, he stole her cloths and built her a shrine and as you mentioned Crush - not really great romance stuff there.
But these would be examples of acting on it.

Ok, now that's just judging an entire culture! 😀

I know right!
and I would retract that if WA hadn't argued back the point that it's not that he deltes the attempted rape it thats he looks at the good stuff.
And youself in this post, said you see Spuffy moments from season 6, But the rape was becasue he was soulless and then at the end you say it was probably just a plot device.

It is just my personal experience with this discussion that has lead me to think like this, but so far your arguments have followed my almost prepapared Spuffy argument.

Huh. And Angel ISN'T a snorefest of brooding and whining when he's with Buffy? 😀

Sure he could be, but I said I just though everything about Spike got boring, he wouldn't even fight demons.

It's not very nice to generalize, BEG. 😀 In fact, I rarely hear that Spike was "great" in S6. And he WAS one of the good guys, for the most part.

True it's not great, but again I was able to bring up the points you have argued in this post in my own one where I pretty much Nostradamused this thread - so I think it's ok when you get it right.

Do you think that Willow isn't a good guy because she killed someone? Xander isn't a good guy because he left Anya at the alter? Wes isn't a good guy because he nonchalantly killed people?

I do, Willow was bad, what I liked was we saw her be remorsful and feel bad,
Xand leaving Anya at the alter seems kinda out of place with the other topics but he wasn't great for that either, although would have been worse to marry her with doubts.
And Anya was a demon when she did those.

I DEFINITELY disagree with your analysis. More like: William started off as a gentlemanly poet in love. Was turned into a vampire, but was still sweet. Stopped following rules, but loved and took care of his mate. Went to Sunnydale, tried to kill the slayer but failed. Helped the slayer save the world, left. Came back two years later to kill her, ended up getting a chip. Went to the SG for help, started helping them. Betrayed them, but then went back to helping them. Realized he was in love with Buffy, tried to get her to love him. She was disgusted, rejected him. He sacrifices himself for her, they become friends. Become confidantes, started sleeping together. She beat him up, later broke up with him. Were back to being "friends", he tried to rape her. Left to get a soul, came back, she forgave him and took care of him. They became best friends, spent nights cuddling together, she loved him and told him, he told her not to, being all noble and stuff, then died.

Ok... so you do realize you started off saying you disagree then went on to explain exactly what I said, that Spike still kept a core human side to him?

It probably WAS a plot device, or most of it was anyway. And that was a plain bad episode.

He hadn't killed for years, and he loved Buffy. But it's as far away from black and white as possible, and we can debate 'til the end of time.

'Sides... He's SOULLESS. 😀

I may change my user name to NostroBEGmus.

 

[white avenger]

QUOTE=Black Eye Guy;792269]Of course.


That to me, makes it harder to separate the Spike that Raped Buffy from the one in season 7, and I think to accept that Spike is an anomaly it has to be accepted the attempted rape if part of him also.



and I would retract that if WA hadn't argued back the point that it's not that he deltes the attempted rape it thats he looks at the good stuff.




.

As I've said before, it's harder to differentiate between soulless Spike and Spike with a soul than it is to differentiate between Angelus and Angel, but the difference is there, just the same.

And just because I choose not to put a lot of my focus on soulless Spike's bad traits doesn't mean that I ignore the fact that they exist, I simply am not blinded to the good things that Spike with a soul, or even without a soul, has done. I do admit that they are there, I just don't think that they should be the total factor used in judging him.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Wishing Oceans
But really? Spike, the Rapist? I just don't see that. Sure, he forced himself on her, but hadn't she done the same before?

Had Buffy forced herself on Spike ???

 

[Eleftheria]

Joan the Vampire Slayer agrees: "And Buffy had the courage to forgive him. " This is the crux of it, I believe. I always ask; if Buffy could forgive Spike, why couldn't his fans?


Well I guess it's because Buffy has always been strong and not just physically...Buffy has always been able to tell the difference between a soulless person and an ensouled one. She has learned her lessons well. It is just so hard to watch that scene. Everyone has a personal opinion I suppose

 

[Kana]

Just to be clear on the whole vampire/human distinction. I don't judge vampires in the same way as I do humans because their actions are often very different. While vampires are sentient beings they appear have little empathy towards humans. Even Spike didn't care about the many people he's killed in the past.

WO, on your point about how we judge evil actions of humans vs the evil actions of humans. When we kill vampires we are not judging them but we preserving our own species. Let's put it this way, yes we know that Gunn and Wes have killed but would you rather trust your friends and family with them or a bunch os soulless vampires? The likelyhood is that your family will be safer with Wes and Gunn. It's more about a pragmatism from a human perspective and I assume you're a human 😉.

As for the AR, it is a difficult subject but we cannot blame soulledSpike anymore than we can blame Angel, and yes he is relevent because of the OP. Yes Angelus never tried to rape Buffy but he's raped others. Do we chastise Spike just because we know the victim? Not fair really.

How to judge soulless Spike? Well as I said we don't judge him in the same way we would a human but the problem as I said is that unlike Angelus, soullessSpike loves Buffy and stated this. All this said, we cannot seperate the love from the lover. His nature doesn't contradict the fact that he loved her.

Also about plot devices? That's not a satisfactory 'in the show' argument. The Angel/us is also a plot convenience, hell anything is a plot convenience to a degree but if we are to stay inside the show and we are having a meaningful discussion, then we have to admit that the same soullessSpike who claimed to love her tried to sexually assult her.

The AR is difficult because it wasn't a rape based on power or sadism. The problem is when he attempt to understand it then we begin to humanize him and maybe that's the real problem, we don't want to do that because if we do then we feel as though we're validating it. I'm certainly not doing that, but I'm confused about why he did it. It wasn't the demon that lusted after Buffy and there is no soul for him to feel human guilt for his actions. We can say that although he's soulless, he wouldn't want to see the object of his affections unhappy, but if this is the case why the AR and why the attempt to manipulate her and seperate her from her friends (Dead Things). All I can say is that without a soul he doesn't have the same internal emotional responses guiding him. Whatever intellectual faculties he has, he doesn't have the same metaphysical faculties a human has.

 

[Nix]

Joan the Vampire Slayer agrees: "And Buffy had the courage to forgive him. " This is the crux of it, I believe. I always ask; if Buffy could forgive Spike, why couldn't his fans?

Perhaps this is a part of the show that may effect people that have experienced AR/R or know someone that has hence it is too much of a delicate subject to forgive. Just my opinion.

 

[Flannen]

Perhaps this is a part of the show that may effect people that have experienced AR/R or know someone that has hence it is too much of a delicate subject to forgive. Just my opinion.

^ For me, THAT'S the crux of it. Joss decided to go into a territory that was extremely sensitive and dealt with very, very badly, if you ask me. The message that that storyline conveyed were awful which comes through when excuses are made for it. He should never have touched the subject if he couldn't handle the follow through in a responsible and realistic way. He just stuck a soul-shaped band aid over it and that is why I will never brush it aside in the way they show did.

As I've said before, it's harder to differentiate between soulless Spike and Spike with a soul than it is to differentiate between Angelus and Angel, but the difference is there, just the same.

I don't think there is a difference, it's not that its hard to differentiate to me there is not even a dot of a line. And I don't really have a problem with that, I'm glad that they didn't recycle the WHOLE Angel thing although they did recycle enough, but it is absolutely why I will never be as forgiving of Spike as other people are.

 

[Kean]

Looking back at the beginning post of this thread, I would have to say that Angel, Angelus, and his actions most definitely ARE relevant to this topic, since it includes the double standard used to compare the actions of Angel, with a soul, with Spike, without a sou, and the fact that Angelus' actions in Season 2, are totally dismissed by devoted Bangels while they find it objectionable when Spuffy shippers try to use the same argument to excuse Spike with a soul for what soulless Spike attempted to do in "Seeing Red."

No, I do not hold Angel responsible for what Angelus did, however, I also do not romanticise and try to humanise any of Angelus' actions while he was evil and that is my objection to Spike.

If I treated Angel without a soul the same way some Spuffies treat Spike without a soul then I would be coming up with theories such as:

*Angelus terrorising Buffy during season two was just his way of expressing an emotion he didn't understand.

*In Passion we can clearly see that he has a deep emotional affection for her by the way he watches her sleep and strokes her cheek.

*In IOHEFY Angelus clearly continued the kiss longer than necessary because he was attracted and cared for Buffy, he shoved her away only because he didn't understand and was firgtened by feeling love.

*He only tried to end the world because he was going insane from loving Buffy when he didn't want to and that is also why he never killed her.

*Buffy didn't kill Angelus because she was inlove with HIM as well as Angel.

This is all RUBBISH! Angelus is evil, completely, and his actions can be described as nothing but cruel and sadistic. He has NO redeemable qualities and nothing he does towards Buffy should be construed as his twisted interpretation of love.

My question is, why should we believe Spike is any different? Especially when we were given example after example of how dominant his demon nature truly was. Yes, he was capable of "doing good" but the instances of this are few and far between before he got a soul. I don't doubt that he cared for Buffy pre-soul but I also don't doubt that he worked his own agenda in getting her and keeping her in season 6.

I don't understand why his nature needs to be saniticised, why the actions he took should not be questioned. Actually, I think I would find him a far more likable character if he was seen for the demon that he was instead of some tortured anti-hero.

I just don't understand how he became the victim in all of this.

 

[Kelsey]

As a Spike-lover, I hate it. I truly, completely hate it. I believed that Spike could be good without a soul, and to an extent I wasn't wrong--he did get his soul after all, therefore proving that he had a desire to be more than a monster. But still, I felt a lot like Dawn when it happened--disgusted, shocked and appalled.

I go back and forth on this matter, too, so forgive me if I contradict any of my earlier posts. It's something I'm never completely decided about, but as of now I feel like soulled Spike can't be held completely responsible. Or rather, a part of him can, because the humanized demon part of Spike is still there, but now there's the human William part as well (try to wrap your head around that!). I do forgive him though, at least in the sense that I know he's a different person. As much as I loved Spike, I couldn't have forgiven him if he hadn't changed so drastically.

Rape is not a subject to be taken lightly, ever, and it's dangerous to try and defend it away. But it also made Spike see the evil within himself, see that it was unacceptable, and it caused him to change completely.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I just don't understand how he became the victim in all of this.

All vampires are victims, really, Spike included.

Consider this from "Damage":

SPIKE
... She's [Dana]...one of us now. She's a monster.

ANGEL
She's an innocent victim.

SPIKE
So were we... once upon a time.

ANGEL
Once upon a time.

I've always found this exchange to be particularily interesting. Both Angel and Spike agree that they too where once innocents, until they were forced into becoming a vampire. Forced to live a life without a conscience and without a soul. These two men were not given a choice.

We DO not victimize Spike for the AR and we certainly do not blame Buffy. No one is to blame. It just happened. It's our right, though, to interpret the act as we choose, whether that be as a cheap plot device in order to propel Spike to get his soul, or to remind the audience that Spike was a demon, or whatever. Regardless, it's our choice if we believe it was OOC. No one I've ever talked to blames Buffy, so I don't get why this is always brought up. Yes, some people believe, myself included, that PART of why Spike attacked her like that was because he was confused about the boundaries of their relationship DUE to the fact that he - hence not having a soul i.e. a conscience - does not understand the difference between right and wrong. This is NOT excusing Spike's actions, or blaming Buffy, it is simply our interpretation.

(I'm at work, so I'll be back later..but this thread is very, very interesting...)

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Honestly, I rarely use that in a 'ship fight. I am a Bangel, but the thing Angelus did, and thing Spike did are the same, just Angelus knew how to hurt Buffy more, he knew her, and she loved him more then herself, but not more then the world. They didn't had a soul, and we can't forget that, but we can't forget what they did. Buffy forgot both of them, but we didn't. Spuffies will never forget how Angelus hurted Buffy and the others who were dear to her, and she'll never forgive herself because she is the one who brought him back, and we Bangelers will never forget what Spike did to her, because well, we don't have a lot of arrguments, because as I see it, Buffy didn't loved Spike enough to let him hurt her like Angel did.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Honestly, I rarely use that in a 'ship fight. I am a Bangel, but the thing Angelus did, and thing Spike did are the same, just Angelus knew how to hurt Buffy more, he knew her, and she loved him more then herself, but not more then the world.

Well, it's nice to see you don't play into the Spike-bias.

Neither had a soul when they hurt Buffy, plain and simple. I still don't get how people can excuse what Angel did as Angelus and not excuse what Spike did without a soul in the very same conditon. I will NEVER understand the double standard. So what if the writers humanized Spike to a degree that threatened the mythology of the 'verse? That doesn't mean that he is to be held responsible for that which he did without a soul! They knew it was a mistake, hence the AR. They wanted to remind the audience that Spike was still a demon. *sigh*

Angel = Good. Spike = Bad. Why?

They didn't had a soul, and we can't forget that, but we can't forget what they did. Buffy forgot both of them, but we didn't. Spuffies will never forget how Angelus hurted Buffy and the others who were dear to her, and she'll never forgive herself because she is the one who brought him back, and we Bangelers will never forget what Spike did to her, because well, we don't have a lot of arrguments, because as I see it, Buffy didn't loved Spike enough to let him hurt her like Angel did.

Yes, Buffy did forgive both men; why can't we?

 

[white avenger]

Angelus is evil, completely, and his actions can be described as nothing but cruel and sadistic. He has NO redeemable qualities and nothing he does towards Buffy should be construed as his twisted interpretation of love.

My question is, why should we believe Spike is any different? Especially when we were given example after example of how dominant his demon nature truly was. Yes, he was capable of "doing good" but the instances of this are few and far between before he got a soul. I don't doubt that he cared for Buffy pre-soul but I also don't doubt that he worked his own agenda in getting her and keeping her in season 6.

I don't understand why his nature needs to be saniticised, why the actions he took should not be questioned. Actually, I think I would find him a far more likable character if he was seen for the demon that he was instead of some tortured anti-hero.

I just don't understand how he became the victim in all of this.

I think you answered your own question. Angelus had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. he is the purest embodiment of evil incarnate. Sadistic, cruel, and diabolical, and he did it all "with a song in his heart."

We think that Spike was different because, not only was he capable of doing good, he DID do good. And he DID have redeeming qualities. If nothing else, he was loyal and he kept his word. He spent more than a century caring for and protecting Drusilla, even though she was about as far away from being a poster girl for faithfulness as you could possibly get. He not only fought by Buffy's side, he protected her sister AND her friends between Seasons 5 & 6, despite the fact that the Scoobies distrusted him at best and openly hated him at worst when he had no hope of reward for doing so. If he had any "agenda" at that point, it was basically keeping his promise to a dead girl to protect and defend her family and friends after she was dead.

I can't speak for every other Spuffy supporter here, or in fact, for anyone but myself, and I don't romanticize what Spike did, or what Buffy did, for that matter. All I do say is that, in my opinion, even without a soul, Spike had SOME redeeming qualities, whereas Angelus had none whatsoever. Therefore, in an honest comparison of the two, Spike wins the hero prize hands down. With a soul, Spike was just as willing to "do good" as Angel ever was. More, actually, if you take into consideration the fact that Angel was never shown as anything but a brooding recluse, never willingly going out of his way to help anyone for literally decades before being dragged out of an alley by Whistler, whereas Spike was back to helping Buffy within weeks of returning to Sunnydale.

And as far as Spike "having an agenda" is concerned, whether in Season 5, 6, or even back in Season 2, there's no argument about that. Everybody, everywhere, in every action, has an agenda. Whatever else you might say, Spike's agenda in Season 6 was far preferable to Angelus' agenda in Season 2.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I think that's why Spuffy has so much fans, because of Spike = bad. It's dangerous on the first look, but we as a fans see it in a much deeper level. We can't forget them, because if we do, that is a game with no winners.

 

[Flannen]

Yes, Buffy did forgive both men; why can't we?

Even though it might not be a satisfactory answer for you, I think Nix, as well as myself, have given a valid reason as to why it's not an easy thing to forgive. It's too close to home for some people and no matter which way it's painted it doesn't alleviate those feelings just like it wouldn't in real life.

As you can't understand why people don't forgive Spike, I can't understand why some people can't see why we don't. But, such is life!

 

[white avenger]

I think that's why Spuffy has so much fans, because of Spike = bad.

That's Spike, alright

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGMEi6ibryg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGMEi6ibryg[/ame]


(It's old, and everybody's probably already seen it, but I love it anyhow)

 

[Kelsey]

No, I do not hold Angel responsible for what Angelus did, however, I also do not romanticise and try to humanise any of Angelus' actions while he was evil and that is my objection to Spike.


If I treated Angel without a soul the same way some Spuffies treat Spike without a soul then I would be coming up with theories such as:

*Angelus terrorising Buffy during season two was just his way of expressing an emotion he didn't understand.

*In Passion we can clearly see that he has a deep emotional affection for her by the way he watches her sleep and strokes her cheek.

*In IOHEFY Angelus clearly continued the kiss longer than necessary because he was attracted and cared for Buffy, he shoved her away only because he didn't understand and was firgtened by feeling love.

*He only tried to end the world because he was going insane from loving Buffy when he didn't want to and that is also why he never killed her.

*Buffy didn't kill Angelus because she was inlove with HIM as well as Angel.

This draws parallels between Spike and Angelus' actions that aren't there. Yes, Spike was evil. Yes, he never truly lost that part of himself. But there were instances, much more than with Angelus, where he showed his humanity. We Spike-fans don't twist the facts as you've so bluntly accused us of doing--I can give you numerous moments off the top of my head that showed Spike was capable of good. That does not mean I don't believe he was as equally capable of evil, and that does not mean I dismiss that evil. But you cannot break down Spike as easily as you can Angelus, because in the end Spike was much more complex.

Angel is good and Angelus is bad, and there is a very thick, very defined line between them. Spike, on the other hand, is both good and bad, evil and righteous, loyal and ruthless, and all in the same messy package. It's why I've always liked him more--because he interested me. He was just as capable of building a degrading and disgusting Buffy-bot as he was enduring torture to protect Buffy and Dawn from harm. There is no line you can draw either way--he was not completely good and he was not completely evil.

No, I do not hold Angel responsible for what Angelus did, however, I also do not romanticise and try to humanise any of Angelus' actions while he was evil and that is my objection to Spike.

My question is, why should we believe Spike is any different? Especially when we were given example after example of how dominant his demon nature truly was. Yes, he was capable of "doing good" but the instances of this are few and far between before he got a soul. I don't doubt that he cared for Buffy pre-soul but I also don't doubt that he worked his own agenda in getting her and keeping her in season 6.

I don't understand why his nature needs to be saniticised, why the actions he took should not be questioned. Actually, I think I would find him a far more likable character if he was seen for the demon that he was instead of some tortured anti-hero.

I just don't understand how he became the victim in all of this.

Ah, but they're just different interpretations, aren't they? You like seeing Spike as the demon you think he is, whereas I like seeing Spike as the conflicted, chaotic character I believe he is. I would hate to see him your way, and I gather you would hate to see him mine.

I object very much to the idea that we as Spike-fans humanized him and made him seem "good." The writers gave us that thread clearly when they made Spike fight at Buffy's side during the apocolypse in Season 5. His protection of Dawn and Buffy, his willingness to die fighting Buffy's battle, the transformation of his love from bizarre and obsessive to selfless ("I know that I'm a monster but you treat me like a man," Spike's devestation at Buffy's death, and "Couldn't live, her being in that much pain," prove this to me, even if they don't to you) changed his character.

In Season 6 he was selfish and he was mean, and it's hard to watch. But all of them were. If you start listing all of the things the characters did in that season and say they don't deserve to be redeemed because of it--well, the Scooby gang is out of comission then, isn't it? Buffy beat, abused, and took out her torment on someone who loved her, Spike fought to possess someone he loved, Willow controlled the woman she loved and even wiped her memories (a crime that I think should be on par with Spike's rape, though it usually isn't considered so), Xander broke the heart of the woman he loved and Anya returned to her Vengeance demon ways.

In fact, if you go farther back, Anya torture and killed men for thousands of years, probably racking up a higher body count than Spike could hope to have, and never showed any remorse for it. Angel only had his soul cursed on him, and spent a hundred years moping even when he knew he could be helping people in need. Giles has killed when he thought it was necessary, and he's betrayed or threatened to betray Buffy too many times to count.

My point is this: If you look at the absolute worst in the characters, as you've done with Spike, you will find very few that measure up to that standard of "good." If Spike has to be judged so damn harshly for what he's done, then so should everyone else.

 

[TheVoid68]

To answer the OP, if you look at it objectively then it is very unfair to judge Angel(us) and Spike by different standards. However I can completely understand why people do it. Angel and Angelus are presented as two distinct entities. The are in effect two people sharing the same body. They even have different names. Spike, on the other hand, was still essentially the same person with or without a soul, he just felt guilty post-soul. There was only one person in Spike's body, after his soul he kept the same mannerisms, personality and name, he was just good instead of evil. If anything the way Spike was presented was closer to Faith - she too was just one person the whole way through, who at one point was evil and at one point was good, but unlike Angel(us) was still the same person all the time. It is very hard to watch with Spike being presented as one single entity, and yet dismissing everything he did pre-soul.