The Whole Lack of Grudge Against Willow....

[Kelsey]

Alright, here's the thread for those of you who know what I'm talking about! For those of you who don't, the thread "The Whole Grudge On Spike..." took a turn into discussing Willow, and a lot of people thought it would be interesting to have a good ol' Willow debate.

Spike's actions are called into question a lot, particularly what he did in Seeing Red, but Willow is rarely given the same treatment. Some fans, like myself, find her actions in S6 to be terrible bordering on unforgivable, while other fans disagree.

So, without further ado, let the discussion begin!

Also, this felt like the most appropriate place to put this since the discussion might bleed into Willow's actions in other seasons. If I'm wrong, correct me!

 

[TheVoid68]

I'll just quote what I wrote on the Spike thread.

I think that Willow is blamed less for her actions because she was punished for it, while Spike was mostly unpunished. Willow manipulated her girlfriends mind, and by the end of the season said girlfriend was dead. Spike attempted to rape the person he supposedly loved, and a season later she was lying in his arms, him having the "best night of his life".

Willow may have also killed someone, but that someone was Warren, and to be honest was there anyone here who didn't want him to be flayed alive?

 

[Kean]

Right up until Oz leaves Sunnydale Willow was one of my favourite characters. She was sweet and adorable. More than that she was humble and genuine. However, the very second Oz leaves so does that girl. Willow's reacted as if she was the only person ever to have their heart broken. She was wreckless and sought vengence. We would see that reaction amplified by 10,000 when Tara died.

I think Giles summed up Willow post Oz for me the best, "Rank, arrogant amatuer". I will NEVER forgive her for what she did to Buffy. If she actually stopped to think about what she was doing then maybe she would have a) sought out a spell that could confirm Buffy's whereabouts and B) looked back on the situation with Angel and remember that HE NEVER DIED! He was sucked into a Hell dimension! So to me her whole Angel excuse for bring Buffy back means jack squat. The sheer lack of consideration that went into the whole resurrection is best highlighted by them not thinking far enough ahead to dig Buffy out of her coffin. And she then has the gall to sulk when Buffy doesn't thank her for bringing her back? Seriously! Gah!

The fact that she appeared to live in Buffy's house and not contribute also astonishes me. Buffy had to work in the bloody Doublemeat Palace while Willow gets her mother's room!

When Tara died she tries to end the world! Once again she acts as if she is the only person to know that kind of pain. Considering Giles and Buffy were both intimately familiar with that type of grief I find myself even more disgusted by Willow's reaction. Moreso I feel like she should have done jail time the same way Faith had to face up to her crimes. Instead Willow gets sent to a retreat in England where Giles turns Zen Master on her!

She literally got away with murder but because it's Willow it doesn't matter.

Ok I'm going to go and defuse for a little while.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Right up until Oz leaves Sunnydale Willow was one of my favourite characters. She was sweet and adorable. More than that she was humble and genuine. However, the very second Oz leaves so does that girl. Willow's reacted as if she was the only person ever to have their heart broken. She was wreckless and sought vengence. We would see that reaction amplified by 10,000 when Tara died.

I think Giles summed up Willow post Oz for me the best, "Rank, arrogant amatuer". I will NEVER forgive her for what she did to Buffy. If she actually stopped to think about what she was doing then maybe she would have a) sought out a spell that could confirm Buffy's whereabouts and B) looked back on the situation with Angel and remember that HE NEVER DIED! He was sucked into a Hell dimension! So to me her whole Angel excuse for bring Buffy back means jack squat. The sheer lack of consideration that went into the whole resurrection is best highlighted by them not thinking far enough ahead to dig Buffy out of her coffin. And she then has the gall to sulk when Buffy doesn't thank her for bringing her back? Seriously! Gah!

The fact that she appeared to live in Buffy's house and not contribute also astonishes me. Buffy had to work in the bloody Doublemeat Palace while Willow gets her mother's room!

When Tara died she tries to end the world! Once again she acts as if she is the only person to know that kind of pain. Considering Giles and Buffy were both intimately familiar with that type of grief I find myself even more disgusted by Willow's reaction. Moreso I feel like she should have done jail time the same way Faith had to face up to her crimes. Instead Willow gets sent to a retreat in England where Giles turns Zen Master on her!

She literally got away with murder but because it's Willow it doesn't matter.

Ok I'm going to go and defuse for a little while.

Good Lord, Kean! You took the words right out of my mouth...
I hate the double standard that seems to apply to Willow on the show. She got away with a hell of a lot more than any of the rest of them could have. Whenever Spike or Faith or anyone else did something to that extreme, it was hung over their heads forever, but because it's Willow they were so quick to forgive. This always bothered me so much.
Willow was one of my favorite characters in the beginning of the show, but it seemed like after Oz left and she got into witchcraft and she and Tara got together, she morphed into this horrible caricature of the person she was before. Willow no longer had any of the cute little quirks I loved about her when we first met her. I know it's important for TV characters to grow and change just like people do IRL but in my opinion, Willow was changed way too much and after S6 I couldn't bring myself to like her at all anymore.

 

[Kean]

Also, Tara was at least two levels out of Willow's league. She deserved someone a Hell of a lot better than what she got with Willow.

 

[Kelsey]

The thing that frustrated me about Willow, too, was the fact that she'd always shown controlling tendencies, especially where her magic was concerned. The anti-lust spell is just one example I can think of, as is the wish spell in Something Blue.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Hmm. Willows actions. I've been thinking about them a lot, but in the end, I always find some kind of an excuse for her. Maybe because from season 5-7 stopped being one of my favourite characters. I love her in the first 4 seasons, but I'm not a big fan of gay Willow. Willow did a lot of wrong things, but sometimes I really don't care, because at that time there was a lot of things going on with Buffy so I concentrated to her.

 

[Eleftheria]

I never understood what happened to Willow's character after s4. Kean pretty much expressed my opinion.

I loved the fact that she was trying to help Buffy with her powers, I really liked it when she got inside Buffy's mind in "Weight of the World"...but still she became a terribly arrogant person who didn't give a s**t about others' feelings or opinions.

She had absolutely no right to bring Buffy back. Good intentions don't mean much to me. She should have talked to Giles first, try to communicate with Buffy somehow, find out where she really is, before she tries sth really dangerous and stupid.Still in the end of the season Buffy forgave her friends. And for God's sake, she didn't want to hurt them, that's why she never said anything about where she was until OMWF. If I were Buffy I would easily never talk to Willow again.

After I studied her behaviour in the early eps of season 6, I always thought that she 50% wanted to save her friend and 50% she wanted to PROVE that she can save her friend.She became so arrogant, that she thought she had the power to raise the dead without any consequences. Everything Buffy felt, numbness and self-disgust, I now firstly blame Will about it.

She murdered Warren(he deserved it yeah) but when Faith accidentally killed that person, noone seemed to fogive her so easily.

Also, who does she think she is to kick Buffy out of her house in s7? The three people I was most angry at in Empty Places, were Dawn, Will and Anya. Honestly, did no one think to throw a few words to Willow, more like this? "you almost destroyed the world,you felt pain and you thought noone has ever felt that pain before(Buffy had to kill Angel once, but she never tried to hurt anybody after that. She just ran and hid), you murdered people, you almost killed your friends but hey...who cares about Buffy who has saved your ass like a thousand times?"

Until season 3, I could relate to her in a few things. But her character changed very much.

And because tara was mentioned...Tara proved to be a better friend for Buffy in s6 that Willow...sadly.

 

[MinwaraYana]

I always like Willow when she was quirky in S1-S2. She's still sweet and likeable in S3-S5. But since she killed the baby deer, I feel like Willow doesn't live here anymore.

 

[Allie]

I agree about season 7, when they kicked Buffy out, I don't think I ever got that mad at something on the show before. And though are hard on Spike because he attempted rape, while he had no soul. People aren't nearly as hard on Willow who committed while all souley. Just because she didn't use force, using magic to wipe someones memory and then getting close to them is the same thing. I just had to let that out, lol.

 

[GrrArghx]

I think the first time I was truly disappointed in Willow as far as her magick goes, is when she was about to put that spell on Oz after he slept with Veruca. I was really glad she didn't do it, but I couldn't believe she was even about to.

As for her bringing back Buffy, I may be the only one but I'm not too upset with her for that. It's horrible she brought her back from Heaven, but she genuinely thought she was somewhere else. I do agree she should've found a way to find out first, though. But I think her intentions were good, and you can tell when she found out in OMWF she felt really bad.

My biggest WTF moment for her, though, was Tabula Rasa. I could NOT believe she actually was trying to make Buffy forget she was in HEAVEN. I almost yelled at my computer screen the first time I watched it. lol I was glad Tara stood up to her then.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Ok, this is obviously not a popular belief here, but...

I love Willow, all the way. I loved her in the beginning and I love her in the end. Maybe even more so in the end.

I have forgave her for her actions, just like I forgave everyone else. They ALL made a lot of stupid mistakes, and they ALL went through questionable times. But they were also all better for it. 🙂


Please, feel free to argue with me! I haven't gotten into a good debate in a while. 😀

 

[Allie]

I love Willow too, don't get me wrong. I was just pointing the unfairness shown about punishments for actions in the show. I still love Willow 🙂

 

[white avenger]

I was never a great fan of Willow's, especially after she got into the magic stuff, but this thread has treally raised my awareness of her. Let's go lynch the little twit. Right after we tar and feather her.

 

[Big Damn Hero]

I love Willow in high-school.

And there are bits of Willow/Tara that I like, but I think that's more the whole cute-little-gay-relationship thing that makes me all tingly than anything else.

But yeah, Willow just, pissed me off by the end.

 

[Willow-Tree]

Right up until Oz leaves Sunnydale Willow was one of my favourite characters. She was sweet and adorable. More than that she was humble and genuine. However, the very second Oz leaves so does that girl. Willow's reacted as if she was the only person ever to have their heart broken. She was wreckless and sought vengence. We would see that reaction amplified by 10,000 when Tara died.

You kind of have to remember that Willow was a bit of a late bloomer. Oz was her first everything: first boyfriend, first kiss, first person she had sex with... again, first everything. And when people normally get their first boyfriend/girlfriend, girls especially, around the middle school age, they think it's the end of the world. Willow could have toned that down a bit, but Oz is also to blame here, and his behavior was very unexpected.

I think Giles summed up Willow post Oz for me the best, "Rank, arrogant amatuer". I will NEVER forgive her for what she did to Buffy. If she actually stopped to think about what she was doing then maybe she would have a) sought out a spell that could confirm Buffy's whereabouts and B) looked back on the situation with Angel and remember that HE NEVER DIED! He was sucked into a Hell dimension! So to me her whole Angel excuse for bring Buffy back means jack squat. The sheer lack of consideration that went into the whole resurrection is best highlighted by them not thinking far enough ahead to dig Buffy out of her coffin. And she then has the gall to sulk when Buffy doesn't thank her for bringing her back? Seriously! Gah!

Well... what she did, I don't take so much as sulking as I do her being confused and depressed as to why Buffy was unhappy returning to Earth. She wasn't the only one acting this way. She led the spell, but everyone participated.

The fact that she appeared to live in Buffy's house and not contribute also astonishes me. Buffy had to work in the bloody Doublemeat Palace while Willow gets her mother's room!

I thought it was established that since Willow and Tara went to college full-time, and Dawn to school, Buffy would be the one to work. Also, this same argument could be applied to both Tara and Dawn.

 

[Kelsey]

Wow, I'm surprised by the responses here! I named the thread in an attempt to be witty (hey, I tried!) but it appears as though there is a grudge against Willow. I find this pretty surprising, since I was under the impression that she was a beloved character by most everyone.

Hope you don't mind if I jump in here, Willow-Tree!

You kind of have to remember that Willow was a bit of a late bloomer. Oz was her first everything: first boyfriend, first kiss, first person she had sex with... again, first everything. And when people normally get their first boyfriend/girlfriend, girls especially, around the middle school age, they think it's the end of the world. Willow could have toned that down a bit, but Oz is also to blame here, and his behavior was very unexpected.

That is true. I don't begrudge Willow heartache, especially for Oz. But like Kean said, Buffy's first love had a far more tragic and earth-shattering ending, and Buffy never attempted to hurt anyone because of it. Willow's behavior over Oz is selfish but understandable, but her behavior over Tara is completely unacceptable. Buffy had just as much power as Willow to wreak havoc and hurt people because she was hurting, but she never did. And in fact, she ended up fighting evil even in a different place under a different name.

Well... what she did, I don't take so much as sulking as I do her being confused and depressed as to why Buffy was unhappy returning to Earth. She wasn't the only one acting this way. She led the spell, but everyone participated.

It's true, everyone who participated is also to blame. They should have known messing with something as huge as resurrection was a terrible idea, no matter the circumstances. There was such a desperation to Willow's reasoning that I felt they would have come up with any excuse to bring Buffy back. They wanted her alive again, and instead of coping and grieving as everyone must do, they brought her back. That is a crime that all of them should have had to atone for at some point or another.

I thought it was established that since Willow and Tara went to college full-time, and Dawn to school, Buffy would be the one to work. Also, this same argument could be applied to both Tara and Dawn.

It's still ridiculous for Willow and Tara to be living in Buffy's home and to not help out at all. They knew Buffy was struggling, depressed and had to pick up a terrible job at a fast-food place, but they never once offered their help? That, in my opinion, makes them terrible friends in that situation.

Willow should have made more of an honest effort to talk to Buffy and be there for her, especially after she found out Buffy was in heaven. Instead she tried to fix the whole situation with magic, an easy cop-out, and then she realized she was addicted and once again became self-absorbed. I'm not saying she could help the addiction at that point, or the fact that she needed help, but Buffy barely had her own head above water and there Willow was clinging to her.

 

[TheVoid68]

You know, I find myself agreeing with all the anti-Willow statements, but I just cannot bring myself to get mad at Willow. I don't know what it is, she just doesn't bug me in the later seasons. I was annoyed with her at some points in S6, but it never lasted. I just didn't hate Willow, and I don't really know why. I'm sticking with my "Willow was punished" theory. It's very hard to hate a woman who's crying over the dead body of the love of her life.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I'd like to know exactly how much Willow was in control of her actions. That would make a difference to me. If she was motivated by only addiction, then I think I'd have had a grudge. I'm very familiar with addiction, and IMO people still are responsible for their actions. But if the dark magic actually took control of her mind (which was always my impression) then she's not much more responsible than Spike was in S7 for killing people when the First compelled him.

 

[Kean]

I'd like to know exactly how much Willow was in control of her actions. That would make a difference to me. If she was motivated by only addiction, then I think I'd have had a grudge. I'm very familiar with addiction, and IMO people still are responsible for their actions. But if the dark magic actually took control of her mind (which was always my impression) then she's not much more responsible than Spike was in S7 for killing people when the First compelled him.

I always got the opposite impression. She called on the dark magic when Tara died, it didn't manifest itself and overtake her. Plus it was Xander appealling to Willow and not the magic that finally got through to her. I would take both those things as indications that it was in fact Willow who was in control.