There's always consequences - magic

[bespangeled]

I got this idea from the thread about whether Ttara would have died if Willow had called 911.

Magic has consequences - Spike said it after Buffy was raised - is it true?

Spike used magic once, and I think he saw the consequence as ending in a wheelchair with Dru and Angelus screwing. Willow went from resouling Angelus (where Giles warned her she might be opening a door that she can't fully close) to using blood magic and necromancy to raise Buffy to going full dark when Tara died.

So, what were the smaller magics, and did they have consequences? Were Tara's magics less likely to have consequences? And what about Willow - was she in control of the magic or was the magic changing her?

 

[Silverspike]

I always had the sneaking suspicion that why everyone went to hell in a hand basket during season 6 and why Tara dies was because they used magic to bring Buffy back. I feel If that hadn't had happened then Tara would still be alive.

So yes, serious consequences.

 

[EVIL UU]

Bollocks. If you take a look at every spell the characters cast on the show you'll see that most of the time nothing happens. Most of the time it's also impossible to ascertain that the badness was a consequence of using magic.

Anyway, I don't like the idea that Tara's death was a consequence of Buffy's resurrection because it absolves Warren of responsibility. It's suddenly what, Willow's ( and Xander's and Anya's and Tara's ) fault that some asshole shot her girlfriend? Come on, let's not blame the victim.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Bollocks. If you take a look at every spell the characters cast on the show you'll see that most of the time nothing happens. Most of the time it's also impossible to ascertain that the badness was a consequence of using magic.

I agree. There were alot of spell casting early on with no side effects. They came out with the notion 'magic has consequences' in subsequent seasons to make it a morality issue.. otherwise all problems could be solved with magic.

 

[Silverspike]

I don't think thats what I'm saying actually. Imo the whole thing was set in motion by Buffy's resurrection. Thats what set a whole set of events in motion, one of which resulted in Tara's death.

Consequences.

 

[Taake]

I don't think thats what I'm saying actually. Imo the whole thing was set in motion by Buffy's resurrection. Thats what set a whole set of events in motion, one of which resulted in Tara's death.

Consequences.

But that's not really saying that magic has consequences, that's just saying that choices and actions have consequences... which is true for everything you do in life, magical or not.

 

[sk]

Okay, I'm a bit slow so Taake kinda stole my post...

But what I also wanted to say was that doing stuff has consequences whatever you do.
Don't think that's something specific to magic.

And I certainly don't think that bringing Buffy back from the dead had anything to do with Tara's death.
Tara's death was the consequence of Warren shooting her.

The demon in the episode Afterlife was a consequence of bringing back Buffy though.

/SK

 

[thetopher]

Well, firstly I'd say that not everything that comes out of Spike's mouth is golden nuggets of perfect wisdom, sometimes the guy vents, or projects, or voices his opinion. Sometimes he's on the money.

I think in this instance the spell that resurrected Buffy did have consequences- but only for Willow. She's the one who hid the true cost of the spell from everyone (sacrifice/blood magic) and therefore crossed a line.
But it didn't result in Tara's death, it resulted in Willow crossing that last barrier into darker magics and going off the rails (mixed metaphor?). It had nothing to do with Tara's death, but I think Willow believes it did.
I actually think she voices those exact thoughts in the comics.

 

[VisionBoy]

Compare it to slayer strength, since that is also a dark supernatural force.
Buffy fights demons with her slayer power. That's fine. Buffy uses her slayer power to... I dunno... rearrange some heavy furniture single-handedly. Okay, that's fine too. However, if she starts using it to steal, to hurt, to assume power over innocent people; that's when it goes to a darker place and you end up in Faith 'the crazy days', Simone kind of territory. That's how I see it anyway.

I think magic is kind of similar. When Willow started pulling the hearts from Bambi and friends in order to do a spell, when messing with her girlfriend's mind was no longer off limits, when her actions became destructive... that's when the problem started. But I personally don't think that's unique to magic exactly. Actions have consequences, lack of respect for the safety of yourself and others has consequences, manipulating those you love and them finding out has consequences. Magic was just Willow's particular means of doing those things.

This is why I didn't like the balloon conjuring scene. Why is that so bad? Who could she possibly hurt with that? Is Willow going to go crazy and start magically decorating people to death? Is there a terrible engagement party demon that she might have just brought up from hell?
I mean, that wasn't even for her own benefit. But even if it was, I've never understood this notion (not just on Buffy- it's the case in many shows/films involving witches) that a witch crosses a line if ever they use the power they have for themselves; even if it's a tiny thing that harms absolutely no one. And really, why is it any different to floating something, or starting a fire on the beach etc? Certainly seems a lot less dangerous to me than, oh I dunno: making everyone blind to demons *cough* Tara? *cough*.

 

[thetopher]

This is why I didn't like the balloon conjuring scene. Why is that so bad? Who could she possibly hurt with that? Is Willow going to go crazy and start magically decorating people to death? Is there a terrible engagement party demon that she might have just brought up from hell?
I mean, that wasn't even for her own benefit. But even if it was, I've never understood this notion (not just on Buffy- it's the case in many shows/films involving witches) that a witch crosses a line if ever they use the power they have for themselves; even if it's a tiny thing that harms absolutely no one. And really, why is it any different to floating something, or starting a fire on the beach etc? Certainly seems a lot less dangerous to me than, oh I dunno: making everyone blind to demons *cough* Tara? *cough*.

Isn't that the same episode where Willow was going to teleport everybody at The Bronze who wasn't a sixteen year old girl into another dimention 'just for a sec?' As I remember that's why Tara freaked out at Willow and so she told her that she was using too much magic.

The balloon thing...I actually do think Tara was being a teensy bit irrational here but it goes to how she sees magic- magic is a force, not an all-purpose tool, there is a difference.
Ironically Willow thought that exact same thing way back in S3 but just kinda forgot.

(Doppelgangerland🙂
WILLOW: Magic is dangerous, Anya. It's not to be toyed with. Now if you'll excuse me, I have someone else's homework to do.

That last part isn't relevent to this debate, it's just funny. 🙂

 

[white avenger]

Magic has consequences - Spike said it after Buffy was raised - is it true?

So, what were the smaller magics, and did they have consequences? Were Tara's magics less likely to have consequences? And what about Willow - was she in control of the magic or was the magic changing her?

Maybe the word "consequences" should be substituted with "price" in order to be more accurate, and that price would be directly dependent on the power of the spell used. The price for Willow levitating a pencil might be a broken fingernail, the rice for sending Buffy back in time to confer with the Shadow Men was to allow a demon from the past to travel forward to the present, the price of Buffy's resurrection was the hitch hiking demon that came with her, the price for bringing Buffy back from the dead was Tara's death, and the price for everything that Dark Willow did, plus the power used to restore Spike's soul allowed the First Evil to utilize the combination of the two to exploit the unnatural conditions resulting from the creation of a second Slayer line (?) to launch its master plan.

Magic, like an automobile, has its price, depending on whether you buy the barely running junker for a few dollars, or the Rolls Royce for a small fortune.

 

[bespangeled]

I always had the sneaking suspicion that why everyone went to hell in a hand basket during season 6 and why Tara dies was because they used magic to bring Buffy back. I feel If that hadn't had happened then Tara would still be alive.

So yes, serious consequences.

You know - I always saw Buffy having to dig out of her grave and being ripped from heaven as why she was suffering from depression. Makes me wonder if another strand of her problem was blow back from the spell.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I like the idea of magic use always having consequences (commensurate with the power used) but I don't necessarily think that was what was intended by the creative people behind the show, and if it was, I don't think it was clearly shown. It would have been interesting though. A situation might call for powerful magic, but the characters would then have to decide if the situation was desperate enough, if they should risk it anyway, because they might solve their current problem but create a separate and different one later. I kind of wish the show had taken that angle.

As it is, it is ambiguous, which is kind of cool in a way actually. None of us can really say to what extent the problems of the scoobies in S6 were a consequence of the resurrection spell, if the consequences were really only just Willow or more etc. because it is unclear. I think it is possible, because the show (both shows in the Buffyverse actually) make a big deal of fate and determinism everywhere too and make it a constantly recurring theme, and sometimes I feel like there might be a relationship between magic abuse and fate, in the sense that in both cases there is the implication (in the things that people say and the way events unfold sometimes) that things follow each other necessarily (constant magic spells and specific things following i.e. consequences (not necessarily with moral implications though e.g. magic consequences are always bad), the actions of important people in prophecies, etc.). There is a suggestion of strict causality and determinism sometimes. People discussed it sometimes too (both topics, on both shows). The writers didn't always follow through on those suggestions, so either the writers were inconsistent or they purposefully decide to keep it nebulous and a little vague and mysterious.

To me it's unclear what the real answer to the OP question is. Idon't think anything about it can be said with certainty. But it's fun to speculate.

 

[bespangeled]

I don't think thats what I'm saying actually. Imo the whole thing was set in motion by Buffy's resurrection. Thats what set a whole set of events in motion, one of which resulted in Tara's death.

Consequences.

I believe that's right - a life for a life. It was using the blood as a sacrifice in a spell that brought Buffy back against the natural order that required payment, and the payment had to be someone Willow loved. It's part of the balance theme - how Buffy's resurrection through everything out of balance.

The blame is still on Warren - he killed Willow. His choice.

It's just that even if he hadn't done so, I assume Tara would have still died. 

But that's not really saying that magic has consequences, that's just saying that choices and actions have consequences... which is true for everything you do in life, magical or not.

I think magic consequences is a subset of that reality. But I don't think it's fully understood by the magic users. Look back at the final ep of season 4 - no one expected the first slayer to react with her own magic, and to react in anger. That right there is a perfect example that no one learned anything from.

 

[bespangeled]

@Mr. Pole: When did Warren kill Willow? Are you just making shit up now?

What I love about you most is your quick eye and your....lonely wit. 😛 

Well, firstly I'd say that not everything that comes out of Spike's mouth is golden nuggets of perfect wisdom, sometimes the guy vents, or projects, or voices his opinion. Sometimes he's on the money.

I think in this instance the spell that resurrected Buffy did have consequences- but only for Willow. She's the one who hid the true cost of the spell from everyone (sacrifice/blood magic) and therefore crossed a line.
But it didn't result in Tara's death, it resulted in Willow crossing that last barrier into darker magics and going off the rails (mixed metaphor?). It had nothing to do with Tara's death, but I think Willow believes it did.
I actually think she voices those exact thoughts in the comics.

Joss said that it did - just going by the official report. He said that Tara was dead the minute Willow slit the fawn's throat. I never saw it that way until I read it, and thought about it. It does fit in the theme of series - or one strand of the theme. 

Maybe the word "consequences" should be substituted with "price" in order to be more accurate, and that price would be directly dependent on the power of the spell used. The price for Willow levitating a pencil might be a broken fingernail, the rice for sending Buffy back in time to confer with the Shadow Men was to allow a demon from the past to travel forward to the present, the price of Buffy's resurrection was the hitch hiking demon that came with her, the price for bringing Buffy back from the dead was Tara's death, and the price for everything that Dark Willow did, plus the power used to restore Spike's soul allowed the First Evil to utilize the combination of the two to exploit the unnatural conditions resulting from the creation of a second Slayer line (?) to launch its master plan.

Magic, like an automobile, has its price, depending on whether you buy the barely running junker for a few dollars, or the Rolls Royce for a small fortune.

That's an excellent idea - in part because I see this as an issue of balancing the scales.

 

[EVIL UU]

I believe that's right - a life for a life. It was using the blood as a sacrifice in a spell that brought Buffy back against the natural order that required payment, and the payment had to be someone Willow loved. It's part of the balance theme - how Buffy's resurrection through everything out of balance.

Buffy's resurrection is not the first time a character is brought back from the dead - Dawn revived Joyce in season 5. What's her payment?

 

[bespangeled]

Buffy's resurrection is not the first time a character is brought back from the dead - Dawn revived Joyce in season 5. What's her payment?

Cost - not payment. A payment is something you get -a cost is something taken from you. The spell wasn't carried through, it was rescinded. I've always wondered if Doc taking a strand of Dawn's hair pointed him toward Dawn as the key. It obviously wasn't immediate but he did worship Glory. But even if this isn't true there is the pain of losing her mother again, the pain of having to make the choice to kill her mother, in essence. And also dealing with Buffy's pain when there was no one at the door.

 

[Taake]

Cost - not payment. A payment is something you get -a cost is something taken from you. The spell wasn't carried through, it was rescinded. I've always wondered if Doc taking a strand of Dawn's hair pointed him toward Dawn as the key. It obviously wasn't immediate but he did worship Glory. But even if this isn't true there is the pain of losing her mother again, the pain of having to make the choice to kill her mother, in essence. And also dealing with Buffy's pain when there was no one at the door.

But the spell was carried through - Joyce walked again. The spell was performed and completed. It was broken later. But it was completed enough to raise the dead.
Are we saying that if Buffy had lived - and Willow would have taken the spell back - and Buffy died again, that nothing would have come of it?

 

[EVIL UU]

The spell wasn't carried through, it was rescinded.

Joyce rose from her grave, we get to see her walking through the graveyard. You said life for a life - so what's the cost?

 

[Silverspike]

Well as Buffy died that season you could say that was a pretty big cost. 🙂