There's always consequences - magic

[bespangeled]

No - I am saying that the spell called for nothing but grave dirt.There was no animal killed and no blood magic involved. It was something closer to raising a zombie than raising a decayed human into human form. Then the spell was rescinded. I have no idea what the cost would have been if the spell had not been broken - it probably would consist of killing Joyce again or living with zombie Joyce.

Buffy was brought fully back to life - I don't think Willow could break that spell.

 

[thetopher]

I think we're wondering into predestination territory by saying that when Willow raised Buffy from the dead then Tara was absoluely going to die because that was the consequence/price of using dark magic.
And since I don't see much evidence of predestination being a big theme in Buffy/Angel- prophecies are constantly thwarted or misleading- then I can't say I see any evidence in the writing here, not matter what Joss says.

Also:
Thaumogenesis

When Willow (and also Angel in S3) cast a dark spell then there is a cost and Thaumogenesis is what is shown to be that price- you do this thing, cross this line, and something bad happens.
We are shown this both in 'After Life' and 'The Price', the after effects of using dark magic for (somewhat) selfish ends.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

since I don't see much evidence of predestination being a big theme in Buffy/Angel

hahahahaha oh I just had a great belly laugh over that one! hahaha FFS the whole events of Angel getting a soul and Sunnydale and everything else was all predestined to lead to Jasmine. Thats why that whole predestined crap was the worst part of it. So, according to The Powers That Be, everything was predestined. The Mayor, Wolfram & Hart, Dru and Darla murdering the lawyers.. everything was predestined. I found (and apparently still find) that to be so offensive.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, I hate the Jasmine thing too- I still think she was talking out of her butt, there were too many variables.

I'm with Gunn, you can't fix ever thing so we don't know how many things Jasmine 'fixed'. Plus Skip is a big fat lying liar- that's his entire point as a character.

 

[bespangeled]

I think we're wondering into predestination territory by saying that when Willow raised Buffy from the dead then Tara was absoluely going to die because that was the consequence/price of using dark magic.
And since I don't see much evidence of predestination being a big theme in Buffy/Angel- prophecies are constantly thwarted or misleading- then I can't say I see any evidence in the writing here, not matter what Joss says.

Also:
Thaumogenesis

When Willow (and also Angel in S3) cast a dark spell then there is a cost and Thaumogenesis is what is shown to be that price- you do this thing, cross this line, and something bad happens.
We are shown this both in 'After Life' and 'The Price', the after effects of using dark magic for (somewhat) selfish ends.

I thought it was a gift with purchase. 😀

Thaumogenesis is one of the weakest things Buffy fought - but I see it as one of the weaker episodes. Honestly, I think this falls in line with the idea that magic has consequences. Willow filled herself with dark magic to do the spell - she killed a fawn and used it's blood as a sacrifice to raise the dead. If the consequence is just Thaumogenesis I don't see any problem with raising an entire graveyard. I like the fact that it was something of a callback to show magic does have consequences, and the darker the magic, the darker the consequence. Giles has warned Willow about that since season 2, when she first opened the door to dark magic by resouling Angel.

 

[thetopher]

I thought it was a gift with purchase.

Technically true I suppose, except that you can't get the one good thing without the other, bad thing. That's a price. 😉

Thaumogenesis is one of the weakest things Buffy fought

I'm not so sure- It almost choked Buffy to death, she couldn't fight it. It was unkillable until Willow used powerful magics to make it solid.

but I see it as one of the weaker episodes.

That's funny, I think 'After Life' is one of the strongest episodes of S6, it has a haunting quality to it- especially regarding Buffy's 'adjusting' to normal life, and so very many good scenes to pick over. Mainly any scene with Buffy or Spike in.
It's also suprisingly funny- but then that's Jane Espenson for you, one of the best writers on the show.

Honestly, I think this falls in line with the idea that magic has consequences. Willow filled herself with dark magic to do the spell - she killed a fawn and used it's blood as a sacrifice to raise the dead. If the consequence is just Thaumogenesis I don't see any problem with raising an entire graveyard.

In 'The Price' Angel's spell causes a dimesional rift to a horrible hell place where hundreds of unkillable slug-things come through and start possessing people. That seems like a fairly high price to me.

I guess there could be an 'exterior' price and also personal consequences to the caster. The spell to raise Buffy creates a demon that threatens everybody, but the cost to Willow is to go down a dark, painful path she isn't strong enough to walk.
First she goes into denial when Tara leaves, and then she goes cold turkey- neither of these work for her in the end, but I still don't accept that the spell to raise Buffy somehow caused Tara's death. For that to work you need to jump through so many 'what-if' hoops.

 

[bespangeled]

I can actually see not buying it, so I really know I have no argument to convince you. And to be honest, the main reason I like it is because once I read about Joss saying it, I thought about it and kinda liked the karmic circle.

Anya called it "a gift with purchase" 😀

This agreement thing is starting to get scary.😱🙂