Things that could have been dealt better

You know what's incredibly depressing about season 7? That the whole 'is Giles the first' thing could have never started if someone gave him a welcome home hug in Bring On The Night.

The scooby gang were completely broken, Willow was pretty much Buffy's lap dog for a large part of it, as were Dawn and Xander. I miss season 4, which had heaps of great scooby scenes: the sleepover in Goodbye Iowa, Halloween at Giles in Fear, Itself, Bike riding in Pangs, guitar playing in Where The Wild Things Are etc.

Dunno, I rewatched the whole season 4 over the Easter weekend, and I loved the fact that The Yoko Factor dealt with the core scooby breakdown with humour (drunk giles!). Say, in Empty Places, it was far too melodramatic, as were the events in Touched (punching Faith in the face? God, even The First tried to make them feel guilty over it), and I felt we were supposed to be on Buffy's side, even though, just coz she's the main character and Whedon's poster girl for his by the stage of season 7, deeply warped feminism, doesn't mean that we are gonna side with her. I, and many other people, didn't.
 
Blaze
Blaze
So true about the Giles thing, I don't know if it was meant to be funny or what plot purpose it served, but it broke my heart a little
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Sweet J
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Okay, its no secret that season 7 is my least favourite, I dont mind the few stand alone episodes but once it gets into the arc it loses me, it just becomes to claustrophobic and too depressing (although I d admit if I were in the shoes of any of the Scooobies I wouldnt exactly be skipping down rainbow lane).
However I never get why everyone feels like they chucked willow's struggle with magic storyline out the window in 7, I mean its not the focus like it was in 6 but I think thats understandable because isnt the idea supposed to be that the time Willow spent with Giles has helped her control and understand it which is why she is able to use magic in 7 without going dark because after all unlike real drugs magic is a part of her, one she cant just quit 'cold turkey' but has to learn how to live with and make use of without going cuckoo. Also (although I cant for some reason remember any specific examples) in 7 we do see instance of Willow being unsure or afraid of her using her magic which does tie in with the addiction plot of season 6.

also a few random points; yes indeed my xander was neglected in this season, I mean really he was like the most unsupernatural of the bunch and that never stopped him from running into battle. wish xander and anya had gotten back together. I think kennedy was unnecesssary (hate her) and really enjoyed faith in this season (wish is nothing new, i usualy love faith bar her evilness in season 3)
 
Better ending

Citizens of Sunnydale should form an army and join Buffy's fight.
 
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Sweet J
Like A Season 3 Graduation day pt II times the whole city of sunnydale? I like it!
Ok it has some major flaws, more than any other season by far imo but complaining about things like Giles 'suddenly' knowing all about magic addiction, well he is:
a) a watcher so would have studied this (safe to assume esp given his past)
b) did warn Willow several times earlier (this wasn't out of nowhere)
c) he probably learnt more and more between season 6 and 7 when in Devon, he is supposed to have a genius level IQ.

We have to allow for some things otherwise an episode would be 4 hours long!

Willow's recovery from addiction, I was fine with, they didn't have her diving straight back in and played out the hesitancy but at the end of the day she is extremely powerful and it can be believed that she managed to control it after tutelage from The Coven/Giles and her experiences.

Regarding Buffy forgiving Spike too quickly for attempting to rape her. I get the complaints there but I think what no one has mentioned is that that was Pre-Soul-Spike and this was In-Souled-Spike and that should make a massive difference. You don't blame Angel for what Angelus did right??

Buffy's depression was caused by the contrast between dimensions so I guess time and adjustment help there in ways it doesn't with chemically caused depression. Also I never saw her running around laughing and joking, who said she was completely over it? She had a war to fight and the writers had an arc to fit in, she put on her game face and they put exploring that on the back burner.

Ubervamps strength, Buffy's 'plan', the speeches, handling of Caleb and lack of explanation regarding 'The Guardians' however I find MADdening!
 
A lot of what other people have said here, I agree with:

- The scythe and the amulet being brought in as epic powerful weapons to defeat the bad guys with.

- Lack of follow through with some issues brought up in Season 6.

- Angel's appearance was very sweet and all (despite my general dislike of all of Buffy's relationships XD ) but it did kind of feel gratuitously chucked in there because it was the last series.

- Spike having pretty much exactly the same personality post- souling (his basement craziness aside) as pre-souling. I get why it was done. Spike was a very popular character, so they didn't want to have as drastic a change as Angel/ Angelus, but after the attempted rape of Buffy, if he hadn't got his soul back, but continued to be a part of the Scooby gang, such as it was by this point, it would have come across as severely icky to viewers. But personally, I think it would have been more interesting to have Spike's personality change slightly, to maybe have him have to fall for Buffy again, as a man rather than a demon, or indeed for there to be no falling- that in the end, he redeems himself for his own sake, and the sake of his newfound soul, rather than because he wants Buffy.

- Little emphasis on the core gang for the most part, particularly Giles. Which kind of makes the moment in Chosen when it's just Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles a little bit underwhelming. Yes, they're all still together fighting evil, but it kind of feels at this point like they're together because of the fight, for the most part, rather than because of their friendship, which held them together in the earlier series. And in that sense, the four of them together feels no more remarkable than if any of them had been replaced by Spike, Andrew, Faith, etc.

My main issue is with Buffy this season, and her total change of stance on being the Slayer. Her treatment of the Potentials is particularly troubling.

Hell, we've got people on this board saying basically "How dare the Potentials question Buffy and answer back when she's been doing this job so much longer?" Well, the Watcher's Council had been fighting evil long before Buffy was called as the Slayer, but do we root for her to follow their every command? No, because they see only the big picture, and completely ignore the fact that the Slayer is a human being, more than that, a child, and they treat her as a soldier. Buffy's strength lies in the fact that she DOES question authority, and she doesn't want to mindlessly walk off to die, she wants to have her own life and be seen as a person. These kids have come to help her fight- with none of the superpowers that she had when she was expected to go out and battle evil- and she treats them in the same way that the Council treated her.

And the above would have been fine- interesting, even- if it had been seriously addressed. Buffy being unable to cope with seeing the Potentials as individuals, like her younger self, because then she wouldn't be able to lead this fight- perhaps leading her to see the Council from a more sympathetic angle. Her friends pointing out to her that one of her strengths was her ability to question authority and not just to blindly fall in line, and the unfairness in the way that she was treated by the Council. But it's not really dealt with at all- the similarities with the Council are never mentioned, everyone finally loses it at Buffy, only for it to turn out that Buffy was right all along, and suddenly everyone's back on board again, Spike acts as Buffy's yes man, and this is treated as all great and good. And then all the Potentials get made into Slayers because we all know how super empowering Buffy herself found that particular calling.

It kind of felt at time like the show wanted to go into depth with the bigger picture vs. the individual approaches, but it never really felt like it was properly addressed, and then at the end it's all wrapped up with "Buffy was right, everyone's following her again, and now all the Potentials are going to be Slayers, YAY!" which... kind of seems counter to a lot of the early season stuff.

Sorry, I get rather broken record-y over Season 7. It's my least favorite by far and away.
 
I
itssmiletime
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S
Sweet J
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It isn't a major complaint, but I would have liked to see the Scythe introduced into the mythology earlier in the season. I liked it and thought it looked incredible, but I do see why people have an issue with it. It wouldn't have been overly difficult to introduce the legend and mystery of it at the beginning of the season or even earlier. The fact that it was introduced so late makes me kind of feel like Joss boxed himself into a corner by making Caleb too powerful and had no way out without something like that.

For someone who is routinely labelled as one of the best storytellers in Hollywood, I kind of wonder what he was thinking.
 
H
Himiko
[No message]
- Angel's appearance was very sweet and all (despite my general dislike of all of Buffy's relationships XD ) but it did kind of feel gratuitously chucked in there because it was the last series.




My main issue is with Buffy this season, and her total change of stance on being the Slayer. Her treatment of the Potentials is particularly troubling.

Hell, we've got people on this board saying basically "How dare the Potentials question Buffy and answer back when she's been doing this job so much longer?" Well, the Watcher's Council had been fighting evil long before Buffy was called as the Slayer, but do we root for her to follow their every command? No, because they see only the big picture, and completely ignore the fact that the Slayer is a human being, more than that, a child, and they treat her as a soldier. Buffy's strength lies in the fact that she DOES question authority, and she doesn't want to mindlessly walk off to die, she wants to have her own life and be seen as a person. These kids have come to help her fight- with none of the superpowers that she had when she was expected to go out and battle evil- and she treats them in the same way that the Council treated her.

Angel's appearance WAS gratuitous. The only thing that it did was assure the Bangel shippers that Buffy still had feelings for him. Can't have the season AND the series end giving the impression that Ol' Broody had been replaced by the Peroxide kid, now, could we?

And the difference between Buffy giving the orders and the Watchers' council doing the same thing is that, basically, the Watchers sat in comfortable, overstuffed chairs back in England and ordered their Slayers to go out and get themselves killed. Buffy did most of the fighting before her confrontation with the Potentials and the Scoobies, and pretty much continued to do the same thing afterward, right up to the final battle.
 
Blaze
Blaze
I think peroxide kid is officially the best name ever given to Spike
And the difference between Buffy giving the orders and the Watchers' council doing the same thing is that, basically, the Watchers sat in comfortable, overstuffed chairs back in England and ordered their Slayers to go out and get themselves killed. Buffy did most of the fighting before her confrontation with the Potentials and the Scoobies, and pretty much continued to do the same thing afterward, right up to the final battle.

But would it make the Council's treatment of Buffy any better if they were out battling evil themselves? I always assumed that the Council did a certain amount of that, though whether it was just the Potential Slayer/ Watcher teams, or whether there were other teams of Watchers out fighting evil, I'm not sure. I mean, I could be wrong about this- perhaps the entire council sat on their arse and did nothing, but from my point of view, even assuming that they were assisting with the fight against evil elsewhere, their treatment of Buffy was wrong. Similarly, her fighting evil - a good thing - does not make her treatment of the Potentials automatically OK.

Now, maybe her bad treatment of the Potentials is because she has been thrust into the role of commanding an army, to all intents and purposes, at far too early an age, tying in again to the essential unfairness of being a Slayer. But again, this idea is never explored. We don't really get a look into WHY Buffy acts this way, or how she herself feels about the way that she is acting this series. We get the big showdown between Buffy and the others, but it doesn't really feel like there's much resolution there- Buffy was right about the vineyard, as it turns out, but none of the underlying issues in the argument are really addressed. A confrontation needed to happen, and badly, but the issue that got resolved (who was right about what Caleb/ the First were guarding) was not really the issue I was looking to see get resolved. And the portrayal of being a Slayer as suddenly something empowering and awesome to do to a load of people was also rather jarring after six seasons of "Actually, being a superhero isn't all great".
 
But would it make the Council's treatment of Buffy any better if they were out battling evil themselves? I always assumed that the Council did a certain amount of that, though whether it was just the Potential Slayer/ Watcher teams, or whether there were other teams of Watchers out fighting evil, I'm not sure. I mean, I could be wrong about this- perhaps the entire council sat on their arse and did nothing, but from my point of view, even assuming that they were assisting with the fight against evil elsewhere, their treatment of Buffy was wrong. Similarly, her fighting evil - a good thing - does not make her treatment of the Potentials automatically OK.

Now, maybe her bad treatment of the Potentials is because she has been thrust into the role of commanding an army, to all intents and purposes, at far too early an age, tying in again to the essential unfairness of being a Slayer. But again, this idea is never explored. We don't really get a look into WHY Buffy acts this way, or how she herself feels about the way that she is acting this series. We get the big showdown between Buffy and the others, but it doesn't really feel like there's much resolution there- Buffy was right about the vineyard, as it turns out, but none of the underlying issues in the argument are really addressed. A confrontation needed to happen, and badly, but the issue that got resolved (who was right about what Caleb/ the First were guarding) was not really the issue I was looking to see get resolved. And the portrayal of being a Slayer as suddenly something empowering and awesome to do to a load of people was also rather jarring after six seasons of "Actually, being a superhero isn't all great".

Travers was giving orders to call in all teams, tactical and logistical, just before the Watchers' headquarters blew up, so it is safe to assume that the Watchers did, indeed, do at least some fighting on their own. Also, there was the wet team that came to Sunnydale in Season 4 when Faith came out of her coma. The difference is, however, at least to me, the Watchers were never shown as considering the Slayer as much more than an expendable resource. Nobody did the fighting while the Slayer stayed safe and snug back at home base. It was just the opposite. The Slayer, at least every one who we have seen in canon stories, was expected to "earn her keep" by fighting vampires and demons wherever they happened to show up with, apparently, little or no tactical support or back up whatsoever.

In Sunnydale, it was exactly the opposite. Buffy, though the de facto commander of the Scoobies and Potentials, never, until the last, at Wood's urging, expected or even allowed the Potentials to do any fighting, She made a point of protecting them, even to the point of being nearly killed on at least two occasions, without asking for any help.

The Council used the Slayer as their primary strike force. Buffy didn't use the Potentials in any such way. her primary concern was protecting them to the best of her ability, exactly the opposite of how the Council had used her.
 
I think Buffy's leadership style could have been altered dramatically for the better. I understand the major beats the writers were trying to hit with her, but I don't think it was executed very well. They wanted to portray Buffy as this dynamic general who makes the hard calls and never breaks, but instead she came across as incredibly demanding when the situations didn't call for it, insensitive and most of all...not very smart. If face, S7 really reinforced to me that Buffy ISN'T a competent general or commander. She may be a talented field leader but anything beyond that? S7, and S8 for that matter, really showed that her capacities just aren't up to par.

I'm reading a book on leadership and management right now, and I came across a passage that I found really apt to how Buffy acts and leads in S7:

Leadership is by consent, not command. A leader must persuade. Even in military organizations, leadership almost always requires consent and persuasion. This is something Buffy clearly did not understand in S7. In a bureaucracy, any bureaucracy, you can't always achieve results by just ordering people around.
 
- Spike having pretty much exactly the same personality post- souling (his basement craziness aside) as pre-souling. I get why it was done. Spike was a very popular character, so they didn't want to have as drastic a change as Angel/ Angelus, but after the attempted rape of Buffy, if he hadn't got his soul back, but continued to be a part of the Scooby gang, such as it was by this point, it would have come across as severely icky to viewers. But personally, I think it would have been more interesting to have Spike's personality change slightly, to maybe have him have to fall for Buffy again, as a man rather than a demon, or indeed for there to be no falling- that in the end, he redeems himself for his own sake, and the sake of his newfound soul, rather than because he wants Buffy.
Wasn't that the point though? From the original appearance of Spike & Angelus, it seemed the contrast was that Angelus was this completely soulless creature, where Spike was basically just a rebellious superpowered version of a human.

After all, the first time we as the audience see Angelus, the Judge announces that there isn't a shred of humanity inside of Angelus--keeping that in context, he's able to burn the humanity out of normal vampires.

Spike on the other hand is this loving doting passionate vampire, even without the soul. The further we go into the series the more we see how both were so unique in the vampire community: Angelus for being more sinister than the worst demons around, and Spike for his devotion to Drusilla, and even his human mother early on.

The implication I always saw was that most vampires were like 75% demonic, 25% their original host. Then you have Angelus who within the first years of his turn seems 100% demonic, with little to no trace of Liam. Angel's presented as 60% Liam, 40% Angelus.

With Spike he's more like 90% William, 10% Demonic with little conscience and boosted confidence. Then adding his soul pushes it slightly, maybe 95% William, 5% Demonic.


- Little emphasis on the core gang for the most part, particularly Giles. Which kind of makes the moment in Chosen when it's just Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles a little bit underwhelming. Yes, they're all still together fighting evil, but it kind of feels at this point like they're together because of the fight, for the most part, rather than because of their friendship, which held them together in the earlier series. And in that sense, the four of them together feels no more remarkable than if any of them had been replaced by Spike, Andrew, Faith, etc.

My main issue is with Buffy this season, and her total change of stance on being the Slayer. Her treatment of the Potentials is particularly troubling.

Hell, we've got people on this board saying basically "How dare the Potentials question Buffy and answer back when she's been doing this job so much longer?" Well, the Watcher's Council had been fighting evil long before Buffy was called as the Slayer, but do we root for her to follow their every command? No, because they see only the big picture, and completely ignore the fact that the Slayer is a human being, more than that, a child, and they treat her as a soldier. Buffy's strength lies in the fact that she DOES question authority, and she doesn't want to mindlessly walk off to die, she wants to have her own life and be seen as a person. These kids have come to help her fight- with none of the superpowers that she had when she was expected to go out and battle evil- and she treats them in the same way that the Council treated her.

And the above would have been fine- interesting, even- if it had been seriously addressed. Buffy being unable to cope with seeing the Potentials as individuals, like her younger self, because then she wouldn't be able to lead this fight- perhaps leading her to see the Council from a more sympathetic angle. Her friends pointing out to her that one of her strengths was her ability to question authority and not just to blindly fall in line, and the unfairness in the way that she was treated by the Council. But it's not really dealt with at all- the similarities with the Council are never mentioned, everyone finally loses it at Buffy, only for it to turn out that Buffy was right all along, and suddenly everyone's back on board again, Spike acts as Buffy's yes man, and this is treated as all great and good. And then all the Potentials get made into Slayers because we all know how super empowering Buffy herself found that particular calling.

It kind of felt at time like the show wanted to go into depth with the bigger picture vs. the individual approaches, but it never really felt like it was properly addressed, and then at the end it's all wrapped up with "Buffy was right, everyone's following her again, and now all the Potentials are going to be Slayers, YAY!" which... kind of seems counter to a lot of the early season stuff.

Sorry, I get rather broken record-y over Season 7. It's my least favorite by far and away.[/QUOTE]
 
I
itssmiletime
[No message]
I'm watching the 7th season right now (for the first time). It's honestly not a bad season, stand alone. However, a lot of things are brushed past, and I feel that's mostly due to time constraints. However, I am only halfway through, so things might get worse. I still find it quite enjoyable; better than most series' best seasons in many ways.
 
Aimee
Aimee
Even Buffy at its most average is better than many shows at their best :)
Okay, let's get the BIG ONE out of the way first. At some point, probably at the end of "Showtime" or the beginning of "Potential," Buffy should have gathered all of the gang together and made an official announcement to the effect that anything that had gone on between Spike and her in the past, and anything that might happen between them in the future would be between them, and them alone. No interfering or meddling, however well meant, by friends, ex Watchers, mystical keys, or Slayer offspring would be either appreciated or tolerated. Anyone incapable of understanding and accepting that as fact would be free to move over to Angel's show for the rest of the season.

Secondly, Buffy should have made it clear that anyone living under her roof and eating at her table was subject to her authority. Suggestions, if presented properly, would be considered, but the ultimate decision in all things will be made by her. Once more, anyone who has a problem with that is free to move out, no hard feelings.

With those two hings settled, the season could have moved along just fine.

Once Angel arrived with the amulet, Buffy should have graciously let him wear the damn thing, if that was what he really wanted to do, and if he was willing to follow orders like a good little vampire. Then, when he heroically incinerated in the hellmouth, Buffy and Spike could have gone to Europe and built a Slayer army together.

(Though it's not really part of the question, I'll add this)

Faith would move to LA and work with Angel's gang at Wolfram & Hart, where the first order of business would be for super lawyer Charles Gunn to reduce Faith's sentence to time served. When ghostly Angel pops up, Faith would help the Fang Gang return him to solid form, then move to her own series.

Seems like you took the thoughts straight from my head.
 
Where do I start....

As I've said before, most of season 7 should be taken out back and burned.

That said, if you were approaching the series from what I will call a feminist angle,then you should have had a problem with the series from the get go. In other words, feminism, in the series, is defined in masculine terms, so Buffy as the warrior.

Now to include some others, and you, I think the Anya part was fine. She was perhaps the feminist hero of the series. First the lover, then the lover scorned, then the queen of vengeance, then His Mrs., i.e., no identity save for male him [think of not so long ago when your name, if you are female, would have been, if married, Mrs. male given name, male family name], then back to scorned once again, then she thinks she's nobody, and then she works out finding out who she really is. And unlike the survivors, she can say, greater love has no human than this, than she lay down her life for her friends. And note that this time, unlike the first time, she didn't bag out of town. So they did her just fine.

And there was crossover here as well, understood by the masses or not, meaning, for how long was she a vengeance demon? Longer than Angel/Angelus was a vampire? And so note Angel's discussion with Harmony, when he's contemplating his own end and he basically says that he cannot even truly remember what it was like to be human. That's what Anya was working on. Again, they did her just fine.

And no reason to go beyond Selfless, other than the quest for who she is, now. We already had all we needed. As I've said before, the true test of Anya's new found humanity would be, wait 'til she's scorned again, then we'll see just who she is. So she was scorned in season 6. As we saw, while she wasn't exactly thrilled with Xander following, she did help out with respect to Willow, was troubled when she saw Warren flayed, and then we have season 7, where she tries to be the old Anyanka but that just her anymore. And, for irony, she's the one of the rare few persons in the entire series who ever accepted personal responsibility, and in her case, in the context of what she thought would be the end of her own life. Faith did so as well, but she did so in the Angel series. Why I've all the love in the world for Anya and Faith.

Now on to deus ex machina, what was the point of Andrew? Ensouled Angel in search of redemption, check. A contrite and repentant Faith in search of redemption, check. A second time human looking for her own redemption Anya, check. So what was the point of Andrew other than some lame attempt at comedy relief? Let me put it this way, I wanted to hurl every moveable object that I own at the TV screen when we got to that part about Vulcan versus volcanologist. And not to insult the Chinese, but what the point of our gal from China chiming in on Faith's doing gymnastics in the backyard there, other than, in context, her statement illustrating perfectly the singular irrelevance of Andrew (she didn't understand his purpose in the series and neither did I).

Now back to Buffy, I will assume unless informed otherwise by those responsible for the show's content, that one of the reasons, note the use of "one", for the Potentials and the Willow spell was the problem of isolation, i.e., Buffy's isolation. I was hoping, well, recall the scene wherein Buffy is having her moment of extreme doubt after being almost beaten to death by one of those uber vamps. So I was hoping that here was the point of the story when Buffy finally understood that we're all alone, at least in death, since we go through that alone, no matter how many are present at the time. And her friends, the mere mortals, had faced death, probably understood the notion of impending death, and so they too knew what it was like to be alone. So if she was isolated, the choice was entirely hers. And so I was hoping that she'd finally realize that. And act accordingly.

And now re the ending, yes, you are correct, in part. Although I too have made the point about some not getting a choice, the more disturbing issue for me is, well, think of it this way, Joss might as well have said that he has no moral concerns about our use of data from Nazi and Japanese experiments on humans. A gross violation of the human rights of those persons, so too with our first slayer. Yet Joss desires that we profit from what is tantamount to her rape.

Now, re Caleb, I found the idea behind him simply laughable. Apparently, since the Catholic Church isn't exactly fond of females as priests, they hate women. Strange that. Given that after Jesus, is Mary with a rather large cult of veneration and devotion. So be a good boy, Joss, and say ten Hail Marys. By way of your penance. And by the way, so much veneration and devotion, in fact, that we rarely hear of any Jesus sightings. Meanwhile, people all over the globe are claiming yet another apparition of Mary. In other words, Joss, long before you came along, the Catholic Church was using Mary as the vampire slayer (for more than a thousand years). Of course, Mary isn't exactly the warrior type. She instead slays via the notion of pure of heart. For more on that...

Next, re Spike and the amulet, remember, Spike claims to have wanted his soul back for Buffy. Is in Chosen that we see the greater reward. Here, note what Buffy says, she tells Spike she loves him, the one thing that he's wanted for a while. He says, no, you don't, but thanks for saying it. Then we have why Spike and why the amulet, and the truly cleansing power:

SPIKE
(amazed) I can feel it, Buffy.

BUFFY
What?

SPIKE
My soul. It's really there.

One of the ironies of the show, as Joss himself admits, is that he is an atheist, yet a goodly amount of the series hinges on faith or religious notions. Note the intro to Chosen, Spike on the cross, with the fire burning the cross into him. So his reward, for getting his soul, and then becoming a loving and selfless human isn't Buffy's love (though, again, that's what he thought he most wanted). His reward is instead Deity's love. And so Deity grants him the best of all gifts as his reward...My soul. It's really there. And remember here as well, the first thing to be cleansed would be the demon inside him. And on that note, note as well, when you watch the ep again, the change on his face from one of surprise, etc. to one of joy and happiness, as he experiences his soul (his cleansed soul). Then note that in the consummate selfless act, although Buffy says that she and he should go now, he stays. Spike on a cross. The clean soul dying to save us all. And not as devotion to Buffy, but as devotion to cross and all it represents.

And note the other element here, the man playing the presumably feminist role, meaning, Spike didn't actually kill them. Their own evil state(s) killed them. All Spike did was shine a light in the darkness. No more darkness. The non-violent way to achieve justice. And back to Spike and Jesus, both on a cross, what was it that Jesus said? I am the light of the world... So, again, Spike as Jesus on a cross, shining light into a world of darkness. A fitting Buffy end for Spike.

Lastly, back to Caleb. Caleb's power is as much perception as reality. Remember, the little engine that could didn't get over that hill by thinking it couldn't. And so the greater Buffy's faith, in herself and others, the weaker Caleb became. One of the other subtle and worthy messages of season 7. In other words, the more faith and love you have, the stronger you are and the weaker the evil are. And don't forget to shine some light in the darkness. You might even feel your very own soul. I didn't say it, Joss did.
 
Season 7. Disappointing the first time around. Awful second time around. Okay third time around. But ultimately it was a mess.

The biggest thing that I wish they'd done differently in season 7 is its focus. Like season 8 it was too concerned with big picture and epic apocalypse extravaganza. Too serious and heavy too.

I wish Willow had suffered some kind of punishment or at least had to grovel for forgiveness. I know she's a beloved character and all but she went full murderous psycho. There has to be some kind of consequence, instead it seems like she's been elevated to equal status to Buffy (leaving Xander in nowhere land).
On that note I confess, I never liked that the credits said "and Allyson Hannigan as Willow" after Giles left.

Spike getting a soul was not my favourite. Season 7 was burdened with making Spike with a soul seem like Spike and not Angel the second.
I found the Buffy & Spike interactions in season 7 uncomfortable. Meaning Buffy & Spike seemed uncomfortable and I felt frustrated. Part of me knew that the attempted rape meant it was all over for them as a potential couple but it didn't seem over, not at all. So there were just a chain of uncomfortable exchanges. So frustrating. Then he did this epic declaration of love and we get a cuddle!

The Potentials (there's a contradiction). Okay, so maybe the Potentials did have potential but nothing came of it. They were just an annoying bunch of.... actually I think I've probably ranted about the Potentials enough in previous threads. They were pants.
 
[MENTION=12004]Aimee[/MENTION],

I really like the comparison between S7 and S8 in regards to a lack of focus. I think that was a problem. S7 felt like they had a plan for the big bad and the general, broad outline of what they wanted to accomplish arc wise, but they failed completely at filling in the details. There was so little real character development. I mean, Xander, Willow and Dawn have no arcs at all. Giles' is totally unfinished and makes him just seem like a dick. Buffy's development makes next to zero sense, and by the end of the series she seems to be right on the edge of a nervous breakdown. A whole bunch of Potentials are introduced but none of them are giving anything but surface depth. Even Kennedy has one, two at most, defining things about her. She's the bratty Slayer, and she likes Willow. That's it. There's no real motivation, no arc whatsoever.

The only fleshed out character is Spike, and even that has complications because of how poorly Buffy is developed.
 
Aimee
Aimee
Yes! BtVS works so well when it's character driven (one of the reasons The Avengers stands out from other superhero movies)
[MENTION=12004]Aimee[/MENTION]
I wish Willow had suffered some kind of punishment or at least had to grovel for forgiveness. I know she's a beloved character and all but she went full murderous psycho. There has to be some kind of consequence, instead it seems like she's been elevated to equal status to Buffy

Monsters and people who yield as much power as Willow don't grovel for forgiveness but more importantly, to whom should Willow grovel to? Here's a short list of people Willow cares about: Buffy, Xander, Dawn, Giles. They instantly forgive her because they love her and because they were forgiven by her in the past but also because they don't have any other choice. Willow is too powerful, too useful and way too impulsive to lay a guilt trip on her. It's not going to work and Scoobies know that, there's only one way you can pacify Willow and that's love as seen in season 6. As to the status, I think that Buffy's actually below her, both when it comes to power and social hierarchy. Strip down the bullshit and Buffy basically plays through a fetch quest in season 7 - find a magic ax, bring it to the witch, watch the credits.
[MENTION=8627]PDH5204[/MENTION]
Apparently, since the Catholic Church isn't exactly fond of females as priests, they hate women.

Caleb is not a priest and he is not a catholic.

One of the ironies of the show, as Joss himself admits, is that he is an atheist, yet a goodly amount of the series hinges on faith or religious notions.

I'm not seeing the irony. Judeo-Christian tradition is ingrained into western vampire mythology and its pop-cultural reworkings. You can't make a show with pop-culture derived portrayal of vampires without Judeo-Christian tradition inspired elements. Anyway, you want an example of author's atheism? I'll give you a proper one. Not a single core character in BtVS gives a shit about religion or faith, even though christian god seems to exist within that universe, even though other gods without a doubt exist within that universe, even though the so called lead character died, went to heaven and was resurrected. Afterlife is a fact in Buffyverse and Scoobies still don't give a shit. That's because BtVS is ultimately areligious and largely amoral franchise.
 
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Am I the only one who actually enjoyed seasons 6 and 7?

Not that I think everything was executed perfectly, but I've grown to really love those seasons over the years.

*Runs and hides*
 
Blaze
Blaze
you're not the only one! s6 is my favorite
[MENTION=12004]Aimee[/MENTION]


Monsters and people who yield as much power as Willow don't grovel for forgiveness but more importantly, to whom should Willow grovel to? Here's a short list of people Willow cares about: Buffy, Xander, Dawn, Giles. They instantly forgive her because they love her and because they were forgiven by her in the past but also because they don't have any other choice. Willow is too powerful, too useful and way too impulsive to lay a guilt trip on her. It's not going to work and Scoobies know that, there's only one way you can pacify Willow and that's love as seen in season 6. As to the status, I think that Buffy's actually below her, both when it comes to power and social hierarchy. Strip down the bullshit and Buffy basically plays through a fetch quest in season 7 - find a magic ax, bring it to the witch, watch the credits.
[MENTION=8627]PDH5204[/MENTION]


Caleb is not a priest and he is not a catholic.



I'm not seeing the irony. Judeo-Christian tradition is ingrained into western vampire mythology and its pop-cultural reworkings. You can't make a show with pop-culture derived portrayal of vampires without Judeo-Christian tradition inspired elements. Anyway, you want an example of author's atheism? I'll give you a proper one. Not a single core character in BtVS gives a shit about religion or faith, even though christian god seems to exist within that universe, even though other gods without a doubt exist within that universe, even though the so called lead character died, went to heaven and was resurrected. Afterlife is a fact in Buffyverse and Scoobies still don't give a shit. That's because BtVS is ultimately areligious and largely amoral franchise.

They don't give a shit because Joss somewhere along the line said something about he had enough critics and so didn't want yet more of a certain type if the faith/religious was rather less subtle (why it's very nearly all indirect and not direct).

Re the tradition, goes all the way back to the pagan Greeks. The Catholic church was a victim of unintended consequences, meaning, they tried to wipe out the pagan vampire myth but ended up reinforcing the same amongst a certain crowd.

Lastly, I didn't otherwise get the sense that the series was an exercise in existential nihilism, which should the logical outcome for the strictly atheist (to borrow from Dustin Hoffman's character in the film Little Big Man, for the atheist, we're all fools and none of it matters). Oh, and by the way, maybe one Christmas, Santa can bring Joss his wish: I think faith is an extraordinary thing. I'd like to have some, but I don't and that's just how that works.

Almost forgot, but re Caleb:

Whedon describes him as "the creepiest priest", adding, "he is the most bald-faced misogynist we've had since, well, since last year, with Warren."

And, yes, he was a defrocked priest. But my point remains. As we don't usually think of the various and sundry Protestant ministers as women haters. On the other hand, we can all Google ourselves silly reading up on the purported misogyny of the Catholic Church.

For a bonus freebie, Joss also played into, consciously or not, the historic English stereotype of the Irish as no good, drunks (with Angel).

And if you want another critique of an unworthy feminism, while Mary is portrayed as the pure, Buffy can't seem to have sex without getting into a world of trouble. That hardly seems feminist to me, but that's just me.

You can read some other soul's view here:

http://wondercow.blogspot.com/2005/05/joss-whedon-is-misogynist-homophobe.html
 
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