This Season Wants you to Hate Buffy

[Nikkolas]

Let's examine the evidence.

Exhibit A: "Damage"

A gang of Slayers muscles Angel out of taking care of a horribly traumatized Slayer. They are in no real position to help the girl while Angel actually is.

ANGEL:
You're way outta your league. I'll just clear this with Buffy.
ANDREW
Where do you think my orders came from? News flash"”nobody in our camp trusts you anymore. Nobody. You work for Wolfram & Hart. Don't fool yourself... we're not on the same side. Thank you for your help... but, uh...we got it.

Exhibit B: "Shells"

Refusal to help save poor Fred's life as well as uncaring that the greatest threat to the world has just been unleashed.

ANGEL
(to phone) All right, look"”
What do you mean she's not on this plane? You just said"” Astral projection? Well, is there any way to get her astral over to L.A.? Giles, this is an emergency. No. No, I'm not going"” Don't put me on hold.

Yeah, I'm still at Wolfram & Hart . What does that have to do with anything? Yeah. I understand.
(throws phone against the wall; it shatters)
We're on our own.

Exhibit C: "The Girl in Question"

Buffy is screwing some random dude for no real reason. She just is.

Yes the comics retconned this but who cares about the comics. Fact is most people don't even know about them which means they just see this episode and hear Buffy is a whore.

So, Buffy is off the air and all we know about their actions after Season 7 is decidedly negative.

Also their main voice and presence is through Andrew. Oh god why Andrew.


So, yeah. What was the writers of Angel Season 5's problem with Buffy?

 

[sisterofmercy]

Maybe it was more a case of emphasising Angel's growth over the seasons as being someone other than Buffy's love interest? If you look at when he first started helping people (because of Buffy) to where he is in the fifth season, he has become a lot stronger and more assertive. I agree that it does seem a bit odd though. The whole Andrew thing annoyed me somewhat, but again I think it was probably to keep the emphasis on Angel and away from any of the core 4 guest appearing.

Just an idea though.

 

[zobothehobo]

I get the Andrew thing and the Immortal thing. I mean, I agree with Andrew to an extent... Wolfram and Hart was the representation of all things evil. Angel taking over the LA branch was kind of "wow... should we trust him?" And the viewer was supposed to feel that way too. We were supposed to not know if taking over Wolfram and Hart was the right thing for Angel to do for him and his position in good vs evil. And the Immortal thing was explained in the episode as Buffy moving on. Buffy moved on and they (Angel and Spike) should too. That was the message of that episode... so I don't get how that makes me hate Buffy...

Now the Giles refusal to help save Fred... That doesn't make me hate Buffy because she had little to do with it, it makes me hate Giles because he's a jackass sometimes. Since Buffy season 5, my feeling about Giles have been going steadily south... this was just a continuation of this.

I don't think Angel season 5 wanted you to hate Buffy. I think it wanted you to be a tad unsure about every other character... but not Buffy.

 

[Nikkolas]

Taking over Wolfram & Hart did absolutely nothing to Angel's character until the last 3or 4 episodes of the season.

He was the exact same way he had always been in the series. In fact, maybe Buffy should have been a bit more concerned about him when he was massacring lawyers or trying to kill his friends.

But nah. That's trivial stuff right?

Fact is, we know Angel is the same in Season 5. He did what he did out of love and compassion.

Buffy sending an actual gang to forcefully take someone Angel is trying to help away is just awful in the extrme. Are a group of moronic teenage girls going to be good therapists for her? Better therapists than the psychologists and magic Angel could provide thanks to Wolfram & Hart?

What Buffy and the gang did was extortion, plain and simple.

 

[zobothehobo]

I honestly believe Buffy was going to take this slayer to a place she could be helped. It does make sense the slayer would go with the slayers. And yes... we, the viewers, know Angel hasn't changed... But does Buffy? No. We've seen him all season. Buffy has not.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I don't feel like it was an attempt to make us hate Buffy. I thought of it as the Scoobies reinforcing the idea that Wolfram and Hart cannot be trusted, and they were wary of helping the AI team because they were working for/with Wolfram and Hart.

 

[EvilBuffy]

Buffy sending an actual gang to forcefully take someone Angel is trying to help away is just awful in the extrme. Are a group of moronic teenage girls going to be good therapists for her? Better therapists than the psychologists and magic Angel could provide thanks to Wolfram & Hart?

I doubt they were comfortable with the fact that a fellow slayer would be getting therapy and such from an evil law firm. (To put it simply lol.)

 

[citiegal17]

I found the Andrew scene in Damage simply awesome. Andrew was right Angel can't sell out to evil and expect that because its him they are simply suppost to trust him. Angel sold out, and he was fully well aware he would have to help evil in the process, Eve spelled that out for him in the first episode. Angel has no say what Buffy does with her slayers, espcially when he's work for evil Inc. Also its not Giles fault that Angel sold out, its makes sense that Giles wouldn't trust anyone at W&H, whether it was Angel or not. Angel should have thought have thought of what danger that his friends were in before he took the deal with W&H, its not Giles fault that Angel sold out, like he did again season 8. Its terrible that Fred died, and I wasn't really happy about it either, but I'm not going to blame Giles when Angel knew all along it was mistake to go W&H and says as much in Home.

 

[Nikkolas]

Since when does Buffy have the right to do whatever she pleases with any Slayer alive?

Could she storm into that little girl playing baseball's house, threaten her parents and take the girl away?

Angel was trying to help and he could do a lot more to help than Buffy could.

Extortion is an evil act. Hypocrites don't get any credit for their supposedly noble deeds.

 

[NL197]

I don't care much for season 5, despite it being such a fan favorite. Reason being this season is too much like Buffy - as a series.

If anything, the writers were trying too hard to rope in potential Buffy viewers a bit more by catering to them by incorporating too many elements that were unique to that show, but completely clashed with this show's elements.

The needle-drop 'cue the sappy pop song' that was a WB / Teen Drama / Buffy staple.
The quirkiness of the dialogue was more in tone with Buffy's since it was kept to a minimum here.
The need to shove Andrew in there...I despise him and he completely wrong for this show.

It's funny - Wolfram & Hart was completely absent from Buffy, even in all their research and referencing. I just found it surprising that they would even know or care.

ANGEL, as a series seemed to lose its identity for its final season and became 'Buffy-lite', in that if Buffy's off the air, watch this and get your fix in a second-best sort of way.

I found it pretty insulting. I don't read the comics and don't plan to so when this season ended, that was the end for me.

 

[Nikkolas]

I just also want to point out that, you guys are saying Buffy didn't know Angel hadn't changed. Well...what does she even know about Wolfram & Hart?

Did anyone even ever mention them on the BtVS?

Oh wait. She might know that it was WR&H that actually defeated the First's army witht hat amulet they gave Angel.

Well..yep. Buffy has every right to not trust them it seems.

 

[citiegal17]

Since when does Buffy have the right to do whatever she pleases with any Slayer alive?

Could she storm into that little girl playing baseball's house, threaten her parents and take the girl away?

Angel was trying to help and he could do a lot more to help than Buffy could.

Extortion is an evil act. Hypocrites don't get any credit for their supposedly noble deeds.

How is exactly is Buffy a hypocrite in the situation? She isn't the one who betrayed all her principals and sold out to evil Inc and mind raped her friends for her own benefit. Andrew just told Angel that they weren't going to let him take Dana back to Evil Inc, and told him that he wouldn't get favorism from the slayers. The slayers are better fitted to help Dana than Angel, it doesn't have to be Buffy. Also it was decoy Buffy that was with the immortal not the real Buffy.

 

[Nikkolas]

How is a rag-tag group of teenage girls better equipped to help her than a giant company that can bring in therapists and magic?

And again, speaking of what Buffy knows, she has no idea about the memory alterations.

She's a hypocrite because she's doing evil while condemning evil.

Oh and finally, I have a little query for you all. Who was it that helped a horribly disturbed Slayer in the past and got said Slayer into the path of redemption and recovery?

Was it:
A. Angel
B. Angel
C. Angel
or D. Angel.

Because it wasn't Buffy.

 

[StarSlayer]

How is a rag-tag group of teenage girls better equipped to help her than a giant company that can bring in therapists and magic?

And again, speaking of what Buffy knows, she has no idea about the memory alterations.

She's a hypocrite because she's doing evil while condemning evil.

Oh and finally, I have a little query for you all. Who was it that helped a horribly disturbed Slayer in the past and got said Slayer into the path of redemption and recovery?

Was it:
A. Angel
B. Angel
C. Angel
or D. Angel.

Because it wasn't Buffy.

In my eyes, Buffy was never a hypocrite. When did she ever do evil? If you mean accepting the amulet because W&H gave it to Angel to give to Buffy, I still don't see how that makes Buffy a hypocrite. W&H was the source of a lot of evil in the world, but they also a lot of ancient things that did good so they could learn from them. Angel got the prophecy from W&H and that really wasn't anything evil. It was what it was. A prophecy that W&H kept to learn more about Angel.

And I'm sorry. But, when did Angel help Buffy when she was "horribly disturbed" and when did Angel help Buffy on a path of redemption and recovery? Buffy certainly helped and guided Angel back on a path of redemption and recovery in BtVS season 3, but when did Angel do the same for Buffy?

 

[GrrArghx]

Given Giles' actions in S7, I firmly believe he was behind everything. I've never believed for a second that Buffy said that about Angel, I've always believed Giles told Andrew to say that. Same thing with the whole Immortal fiasco. And, then with him not telling Willow about Fred.

If anything, this season wants me to hate Giles. And it worked.

 

[NL197]

And I'm sorry. But, when did Angel help Buffy when she was "horribly disturbed" and when did Angel help Buffy on a path of redemption and recovery? Buffy certainly helped and guided Angel back on a path of redemption and recovery in BtVS season 3, but when did Angel do the same for Buffy?

When Buffy's name was FAITH.

 

[Manderz]

Let's examine the evidence.

Exhibit B: "Shells"

Refusal to help save poor Fred's life as well as uncaring that the greatest threat to the world has just been unleashed.

ANGEL
(to phone) All right, look"”
What do you mean she's not on this plane? You just said"” Astral projection? Well, is there any way to get her astral over to L.A.? Giles, this is an emergency. No. No, I'm not going"” Don't put me on hold.

Yeah, I'm still at Wolfram & Hart . What does that have to do with anything? Yeah. I understand.
(throws phone against the wall; it shatters)
We're on our own.

I have seen this ep many times, it crushes me to see fred die and I never really paid attention to that part. Wow that really was rude in my opinion for them not to help. I know they didnt know fred so there for didn't share the love angel and the rest did but come on for angel's sake they should have helped.

also never gave much thought into it but when you point it out like you did they really did come across in season 5 of Angel to hate buffy.

 

[The Unspoken]

I suspect this thread wouldn't exist if they had been able to get some of the cast of Buffy to guest star (aside from Tom Lenk). And even if Willow had come, she probably would've found that Fred's condition was irreversible.

About 'Damage', I think it's implied that the Slayers are organized at that point and therefore do have the resources to help Dana. And 'The Girl in Question' is obviously to be taken in good fun.

P.S. Andrew is awesome!

 

[Kana]

I think that Ats puriststend not to like it as it feels like the had to imitate elements of Btvs to make it successful. This is also coupled with the absence of Cordelia.

A lot of fans also felt that bringing Spike in was simply a shameless appeal to carry Btvs fans over to Ats.

While I agree that the presence of Spike and the sub par stand alones were attempt to make Ats more accessible, I felt the themes and the Angel/Spike arc was handled well.

Although I enjoyed Spuffy I couldn't get over his line about changing for Buffy because it's what she wanted. It's sweet but I kind of felt he lost a sense of himself, but in Shells when he wanted to join Angel's mission because he believed in it, I almost felt this was a more important character development than actually getting a soul, yes, I said it, because for once he wasn't defining himself through someone else, be it Dru, Angel(us) or Buffy.

I loved how the themes of humanity, choice and finding meaning in the meaningless were all prevalent themes which were hinted at in earlier seasons. I actually felt it dealt with power and liberation better than Btvs' finale because it was about dealing about the little power that an individual has rather forcing preternatural strength on others (ugh) despite the morally ambiguous choices Angel still stands and tries to make up for what;s gone on before. The finale underscores his imperfections (yes I don't agree with the Lindsay and Drogyn decisions ) but also the strength he has as a champion. If nothing else he is the vampire with big brass balls.

 

[VisionGirl]

I have seen this ep many times, it crushes me to see fred die and I never really paid attention to that part. Wow that really was rude in my opinion for them not to help. I know they didnt know fred so there for didn't share the love angel and the rest did but come on for angel's sake they should have helped.

Willow did indeed know Fred, and they seemed to have some quality geek-bonding. I think she would've come if she was not indisposed (she was doing some funny astral projecting things pre-season 8 that we're not told about in detail in the comics- & at some point Kennedy died briefly but came back, I don't know). She came without hesitation in season 4 to help Angel.

Although I enjoyed Spuffy I couldn't get over his line about changing for Buffy because it's what she wanted. It's sweet but I kind of felt he lost a sense of himself, but in Shells when he wanted to join Angel's mission because he believed in it, I almost felt this was a more important character development than actually getting a soul, yes, I said it, because for once he wasn't defining himself through someone else, be it Dru, Angel(us) or Buffy.

I agree- I like Spike best in ATS season 5.

The finale underscores his imperfections (yes I don't agree with the Lindsay and Drogyn decisions ) but also the strength he has as a champion. If nothing else he is the vampire with big brass balls.

...and that's why we love him. 😀