To Shanshu In The Buffyverse

[white avenger]

This isn't really a discussion about who deserves it, who gets it, or who hooks up with who after it takes place, this is about the Shanshu, itself, and the actual physical change that it would involve.

Do you think that becoming human once more would be just as traumatic as receiving the soul, though not in the same way? Instead of the sudden onrush of guilt for a century plus of pain, suffering, and mayhem, there would be a very real sudden weakening and reduction of the senses, something that he has to have grown accustomed to after so long.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Yes, but apparently they gain a better sense of taste. It would be very different, from now having the vampire abilities. We see how Angel did as a human when trying to fight. They'd have to learn how to do that all over, without the superhero powers. Plus they would have to be more careful about getting shot or stabbed since it can kill them as humans. There would be a long adjustment period, but on the bright side they won't burst into flames when going out in the sunlight.

 

[thetopher]

Angel liked to stuff his face with ice-cream and poptarts. My guess is that the gain in taste buds/appreciation of food more than makes up for the (presumed) loss of smell and improved night vision.
Also, given that their more sensitive to pain/sensation as a human (Angel getting sick at the sight/smell of a dead human) their probably going to be more appreciative of pleasure...🙂
All in all becoming human seems to have a massive up-side apart from all that reduced ability to fight the forces of evil stuff.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I always assumed that the implication was that becoming human again as predicted by the S. prophecy meant that the fighting of evil was over with, at least for the person in question that becomes human again. So losing the ability to fight or whatever is irrelevant at that point, because that person wouldn't be participating in those fights anymore; the baton would have been passed on to other people. Fate is finished with the man awarded with their humanity again and fate would have just moved on.

 

[white avenger]

I always assumed that the implication was that becoming human again as predicted by the S. prophecy meant that the fighting of evil was over with, at least for the person in question that becomes human again. So losing the ability to fight or whatever is irrelevant at that point, because that person wouldn't be participating in those fights anymore; the baton would have been passed on to other people. Fate is finished with the man awarded with their humanity again and fate would have just moved on.

But why should becoming human mean that the recipient could no longer fight evil? There are several quite capable demon fighters on the shows, and almost certainly others just as skillful, or even more so, throughout the world, such as the team of demon fighters in Florida that was mentioned in one "Angel" episode, the Initiative, and the Watchers' Council Tactical teams that Travers referred to just before being blown up.

What becoming human once more would involve would be the former vampire having to almost totally re-learn every fighting skill that they formerly possessed, plus acquire others in compensation, because of their vastly reduced strength, speed, and senses. It would, quite literally, mean starting all over again as a fighter.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

But why should becoming human mean that the recipient could no longer fight evil? There are several quite capable demon fighters on the shows, and almost certainly others just as skillful, or even more so, throughout the world, such as the team of demon fighters in Florida that was mentioned in one "Angel" episode, the Initiative, and the Watchers' Council Tactical teams that Travers referred to just before being blown up.

What becoming human once more would involve would be the former vampire having to almost totally re-learn every fighting skill that they formerly possessed, plus acquire others in compensation, because of their vastly reduced strength, speed, and senses. It would, quite literally, mean starting all over again as a fighter.

i never said they couldn't keep fighting evil. I said it was implied, because if i remember correctly, when Wes was reading the prophecy, that it implied/suggested/said the person granted humanity was free to move on, or something like that. I could be wrong, it has been awhile, but that was what I meant.

And really, if you think about it, what else would be the point of being human unless you move on and leave the old way of life behind? Why trade for no powers at all IF you are still fighting evil? If you had to keep fighting evil, why would you give up your super powers. It was the implication from the very beginning of the show on Angel, with episodes like the one where Angel becomes human in S1 and is with buffy and she has to forget everything in the end, and many other episodes that Angel getting humanity back would mean being normal again and getting to enjoy the things he cannot while being a vampire and fighting evil. That was the implication of being human from the beginning of the show. How would being human be a reward otherwise? And IT IS discussed and understood as a reward on the show(s). So I don't really know what you're talking about @white avenger. In fact, to talk about Angel fighting evil as usual as a human being (especially after his role according to fate has been resolved) and not after just some flukey change as a result of an accident seems to kind of miss one point of the show really, or at least what has always been implied about being human again, if you ask me. The S. prophecy talks about humanity being granted as a reward if I remember things correctly, so how would being human be a reward otherwise (without moving on)? And even if it doesn't discuss humanity explicitly in terms of being a reward or whatever, what meaning does being human have the entire show, if it doesn't change anything, if life and fighting evil etc. continues as usual ad nauseum without change etc.? What point would there be to even strive to be human anymore?

 

[gite63]

But why should becoming human mean that the recipient could no longer fight evil?

i never said they couldn't keep fighting evil. I said it was implied, because if i remember correctly, when Wes was reading the prophecy, that it implied/suggested/said the person granted humanity was free to move on, or something like that.

The prophecy says

A vampire with a soul will play a pivotal role in the Apocalypse and will earn the right to live as human again.

But this pivotal role could be for the Good or Evil; and in Angel: After the Fall, it's revealed that Angel will fight for the Evil side. So, he'll be rewarded with life, after helping Evil win? Will he give up everything then (free to move on) or he will keep fighting (Evil)?

 

[white avenger]

The prophecy says

A vampire with a soul will play a pivotal role in the Apocalypse and will earn the right to live as human again.

But this pivotal role could be for the Good or Evil; and in Angel: After the Fall, it's revealed that Angel will fight for the Evil side. So, he'll be rewarded with life, after helping Evil win? Will he give up everything then (free to move on) or he will keep fighting (Evil)?

It might be argued that Angel's role in Season 8 could have resulted in the promised Shanshu reward if Twilight had been successful, resulting in Angel becoming human and starting a new life with Buffy in the new universe, maybe as a new Adam and Eve somewhere. (With a whole new universe, finding their own special Eden world shouldn't have been all that difficult) Course, if that was the case, it would mean that Angel lost any chance of becoming human, since the prophecy had been averted or canceled out altogether by Buffy and her friends winning that war, and actually no longer exists. That would also answer the question of whether or not the prophecy even exists anymore.