To Shanshu Or Not To Shanshu

[white avenger]

By now everyone is familiar with the prophecy. A vampire with a soul will play a major role in THE apocalypse, as opposed to AN apocalypse, and as a reward, he will have his humanity restored. Now, I ask you this question. Is that all that there is to it? Angel has already been told once that if he remained human, Buffy would die trying to protect him, so how is his Shanshu humanity going to be any different from his "I Will Remember You" humanity? Being human is being human, regardless of how it is attained. Nothing in the prophecy says or implies that he will be awarded Super-humanity, as in, retain all of his vampiric powers, but would also be able to get a sun tan, so what has changed? Why does Angel now want to regain exactly the same thing that he previously rejected?

 

[Flannen]

Well, whenever THE apocalypse arrives Angel will feel more deserving of his humanity. One of this issues in IWRY is that he hadn't atoned enough and needed to redeem himself more before he was granted with what he wants most in the world. On the other hand, who says its up to Angel. Who says that when Angel sits there and goes 'yup, I've repented enough now' that BAM he gets a heart and become a real boy? It might not be up to him, and in fact it shouldn't be up to him. And, I don't think Angel thinks its up to him.

And maybe come the time of the sanshu being fulfilled Buffy's dead? Maybe she lost in that battle and Angel is finally released from the burden of her taking on the fight for both of them?

I also know that it has something to do with by the time Angel is 'able' to receive his humanity, his decision to accept to, unlike in IWRY, is because the time for him and Buffy to be together will be right.

 

[ubi4soft]

Angel never feels deserving his humanity, he no longer believes in redemption, it's what makes him a tragic hero, he fights because "if nothing what we do matters, it matter what we do". The coming shanshu will be part of his fighting on SP's side in the apocalypse and they wanted him souled and dark. So if Angel is the big picture guy, the one who killed Drogyn, the one who ordered Lindsay to be killed, the real question is why didn't he kills himself now, knowing what's to come?

 

[Flannen]

Because I think a part of him knows that there will always be something better. And that something is a lot to do with Buffy. He might lose hope and his path from time to time, but Angel is never completely lost. There is too much binding him to the world, to humanity.

ubi4soft agrees: Replace Buffy with Connor and I believe you

lol, if you think that it's Connor that gives him this hope then that's your call. But I wouldn't replace it myself because I think Buffy has a bigger influence. I'm not saying Connor doesn't, but its always been about Buffy as far as Angel is concerned.

 

[white avenger]

lol, if you think that it's Connor that gives him this hope then that's your call. But I wouldn't replace it myself because I think Buffy has a bigger influence. I'm not saying Connor doesn't, but its always been about Buffy as far as Angel is concerned.

***SPOILERS FOR ANGEL ATF # 16*******************

Angel, page 1:

"We spend most of our lives trying to find our one true love. I found mine. It was impossible. IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. But I found mine. Now he's gone. My son is dead."

By his own admission, in his own words, Angel names Connor to be the most important thing in his life, his one true love. No distinction was made concerning romantic love versus familial love. Angel made a definite statement, no qualifiers or exceptions. I've never argued the fact that he still has feelings for Buffy. I still have very real feelings for my first love. Most of us do. But apparently at some point, Buffy moved to at best the second place slot in Angel's love list. Maybe third, if his feelings for the dragon were as real as they seemed to be. That was a real love at first sight.

 

[Wesley]

The love of a father for a child is not comparable to the love of a man for a woman. It's not just apples to oranges it's apples to hamburgers.

Come on now.

 

[Flannen]

***SPOILERS FOR ANGEL ATF # 16*******************

Angel, page 1:

"We spend most of our lives trying to find our one true love. I found mine. It was impossible. IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. But I found mine. Now he's gone. My son is dead."

By his own admission, in his own words, Angel names Connor to be the most important thing in his life, his one true love. No distinction was made concerning romantic love versus familial love. Angel made a definite statement, no qualifiers or exceptions. I've never argued the fact that he still has feelings for Buffy. I still have very real feelings for my first love. Most of us do. But apparently at some point, Buffy moved to at best the second place slot in Angel's love list. Maybe third, if his feelings for the dragon were as real as they seemed to be. That was a real love at first sight.

That may be so, but I do agree with Wesley, it's completely different and comparable at all.

But if that's what you're going with...when Spike says 'No you don't but thanks for saying it' Spike says he knows Buffy doesn't mean it. Yet some people like to think otherwise?

 

[white avenger]

That may be so, but I do agree with Wesley, it's completely different and comparable at all.

But if that's what you're going with...when Spike says 'No you don't but thanks for saying it' Spike says he knows Buffy doesn't mean it. Yet some people like to think otherwise?

Buffy was admitting, finally, that she did, indeed, love Spike, just as Angel was admitting, finally, that Connor was his one true love. Those are both truthful statements, expressing the sentiments of the people making them. Spike was simply shocked that Buffy would ever say such a thing, and voiced his shocked disbelief, just like if you were to win the lottery and tell your best friend, quite truthfully, that you were now a millionaire. When he says "You're joking," or "You couldn't have," it's simply because the magnitude of your announcement is too great for him to immediately comprehend. That was why Spike denied Buffy's feelings for him. Earning her love was the ultimate goal of his entire existence, and, at that instant, he simply couldn't believe that he had finally achieved it. It took him a moment to let it soak in. Then he burst out laughing. (Surely you didn't think that he was laughing because being incinerated alive tickled)

Bottom line, both Angel and Buffy spoke the absolute, literal truth. Spike only stated an opinion, based on information that was no longer accurate. That was the point of the whole scene. Buffy had for years denied loving Spike, and he hadn't really believed her. Now, when she finally does come to realize and state her true feelings, in that last brief moment that they had together, he still couldn't believe her. He couldn't believe his good fortune.

 

[Flannen]

Tranquillity agrees: what has Spike got to do with any of this??

He doesn't have anything to do with it. I was simply demonstrating that, like, literature the scripts/dialogue are open to interpretation. That line, or interaction, I considered to be quite a good example of that as people interpret it different ways.

Bottom line, both Angel and Buffy spoke the absolute, literal truth. Spike only stated an opinion, based on information that was no longer accurate. That was the point of the whole scene. Buffy had for years denied loving Spike, and he hadn't really believed her. Now, when she finally does come to realize and state her true feelings, in that last brief moment that they had together, he still couldn't believe her. He couldn't believe his good fortune.

This is the thing, there is no bottom line. Well, if there is that is your bottom line, everyone is entitled to read it differently.

I still see Angel referring to Connor as his 'true love' not being the same kind of love as you have for a partner; despite what Freud may say. It is a different kind of love, that doesn't diminish 'romantic' love. I'd probably say that Buffy's true love is Dawn, in that respect. She would put Dawn before everything, which she did. But that doesn't diminish the intensity or the value of her love for any possible partner.

 

[Washburne]

I stopped reading after or well before the ATF spoilers since I haven't read the comics. So forgive me if something has been said about this already or if the comics shed any light over the situation.

And maybe come the time of the sanshu being fulfilled Buffy's dead? Maybe she lost in that battle and Angel is finally released from the burden of her taking on the fight for both of them?

If Angel's vampire/immortal who knows when the apocalypse will be. It might be a very long time from now and Buffy doesn't even have to die in that battle. If she's lucky she'll die of old age. Having a 70 year old Buffy fighting monsters. 😉 The time aspect has been mentioned in other aspects as well by others. So I can see a huge difference to become human at the time of IWRY and after the apocalypse. Or am I just so forgetful that the fight at the end of Angel was THE apocalypse? :blush:

 

[Eleftheria]

I agree with what Flannen says...you're reading my mind!

 

[white avenger]

Okay, as long as we're tossing spoilers around:

***********************SPOILERS FOR "ANGEL: AFTER THE FALL" and "FRAY". BE WARNED!!!!!*****************


According to the Senior Partners, who are the directors of Wolfram & Hart,( from where Angel learned about the Shanshu Prophecy in the first place), Angel will, indeed, receive the Shanshu transformation for the major role that he will play in the so far unnamed apocalypse, but that major role will will be played on the side of the Senior Partners, not Buffy and her friends, and it will specifically be Angel, NOT Angelus. That means that, in the final battle, Angel is going to be fightinh against the good guys, not with them. That doesn't seem like much of a foundation for a Bangel "Happily ever after" to me.

Course, the impression that we were left with in the "Fray" series was that no one survived that battle anyhow.

 

[Flannen]

Okay, as long as we're tossing spoilers around:

***********************SPOILERS FOR "ANGEL: AFTER THE FALL" and "FRAY". BE WARNED!!!!!*****************


According to the Senior Partners, who are the directors of Wolfram & Hart,( from where Angel learned about the Shanshu Prophecy in the first place), Angel will, indeed, receive the Shanshu transformation for the major role that he will play in the so far unnamed apocalypse, but that major role will will be played on the side of the Senior Partners, not Buffy and her friends, and it will specifically be Angel, NOT Angelus. That means that, in the final battle, Angel is going to be fightinh against the good guys, not with them. That doesn't seem like much of a foundation for a Bangel "Happily ever after" to me.

Course, the impression that we were left with in the "Fray" series was that no one survived that battle anyhow.

Well, it depends on how him fighting on that side goes down, doesn't it? Is he going to do it willingly? Is he going to be forced? Hell, is he going to do a Buffy and sod the prophecy and make it work to his own advantage? Just because this is the prophecy doesn't mean its going to happen just like that.

And geez, we're not running around screaming 'Bangel happy ever after, happy ever after'. You might think that the Bangels find it much harder to accept she loved Spike than the Spuffies do accepting she loved Angel, but some of you Spuffies sure do give the Bangels a lot more stick than is given to you! 😛

 

[Washburne]

Since I did read the last spoiler by WA, silly me, I want to be sure. Do we get to know for sure that Angel is gonna be on the side of the Senior partners in the comics? In the series I got the impression was that no one knew which side he was gonna be on. But I don't trust my memory.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

By now everyone is familiar with the prophecy. A vampire with a soul will play a major role in THE apocalypse, as opposed to AN apocalypse, and as a reward, he will have his humanity restored. Now, I ask you this question. Is that all that there is to it? Angel has already been told once that if he remained human, Buffy would die trying to protect him, so how is his Shanshu humanity going to be any different from his "I Will Remember You" humanity? Being human is being human, regardless of how it is attained. Nothing in the prophecy says or implies that he will be awarded Super-humanity, as in, retain all of his vampiric powers, but would also be able to get a sun tan, so what has changed? Why does Angel now want to regain exactly the same thing that he previously rejected?

This is, as usual, an excellent question.

I'd echo what Flannen said that what's different now is that he feels he DESERVES his humanity, while before, he hadn't atoned enough.

Also, perhaps this whole making him human thing will happen so far into the future that Buffy will be dead. After all, her time is limited as she is mortal.

 

[Flannen]

EDIT: Haha, this was initially in response to what you said at the end of your post Joan and then you made it disappear. So I edited mine to make me look less crazy...in theory!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Okay, as long as we're tossing spoilers around:

***********************SPOILERS FOR "ANGEL: AFTER THE FALL" and "FRAY". BE WARNED!!!!!*****************


According to the Senior Partners, who are the directors of Wolfram & Hart,( from where Angel learned about the Shanshu Prophecy in the first place), Angel will, indeed, receive the Shanshu transformation for the major role that he will play in the so far unnamed apocalypse, but that major role will will be played on the side of the Senior Partners, not Buffy and her friends, and it will specifically be Angel, NOT Angelus. That means that, in the final battle, Angel is going to be fightinh against the good guys, not with them. That doesn't seem like much of a foundation for a Bangel "Happily ever after" to me.

Course, the impression that we were left with in the "Fray" series was that no one survived that battle anyhow.

I have not read the Angel comics, so this is really interesting to me.

So, it has indeed been said that Angel will for sure fight against the good guys in the final fight? Huh. Flannen does bring up a good point, though; will it be voluntary? The Senior Partners have always used Angel as their pawn. I can definitely see them controlling him to their advantage in the FINAL apocalypse.

And that is a very enlightening quote indeed regarding Conner. I definitely see his intense and loyal love for his son to be along the same lines on how Buffy felt for Dawn. Yet, the difference here is that Buffy said that she would, if she had too, sacrifice Dawn to save the world. Yet, Angel would do anything for Conner, including, in my opinion, give up a future with Buffy. He did the ultimate horror; killed him to save him, to give him a better life. Having Conner changed his life. With Conner, Angel finally felt true, fierce, real, and unconditional love. I don't know what the deal with Conner is now, as I'm not keeping up with After The Fall, but I 'd wager that if it came down to the end, Angel could fight against Buffy if it meant saving Conner's life. Maybe that's what the writers have in store for us.

Yippee. *sighs*