TOYL's connection to ATS5 & BVS5

[citiegal17]

In TOYL, DW points how Buffy is changed and not all that postively. When their were innocents in danger in Fray's world she hesistates to help in the believe of the "Big Picture" or "Greater Good". Fray comments on how something is skew with that girl. Going back to BVS 5, Buffy sacrifices herself to save Dawn, and when Giles kills Ben he specifics comments on how its still wrong for the ends to justify the means, and killing for the "Greater Good" is not what a hero does. When we switch back to ATS 5, Angel not only kills Drogyn suppostly for the "Greater Good", murders Lindsey based on the belief that it is justified that he will do evil again or whatever claim he makes that Lindsey isn't part of the solution, or well again the "Greater Good". I think not murdering in the name of the greater good is one of the best messages that BVS5 had, but AVS5 gave the opposite message of that in the end. I think this connection between seasons, is why they choose to use Twilight as Angel. Angel past self in ATS earlier, does actually sacrifice humanity for Buffy, which one of the reasons I like the older versions of his character. I think FDW death will have a huge impact on the outcome as well, and that there is a significant connection between TOYL, and ATS5 &BVS5.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

When their were innocents in danger in Fray's world she hesistates to help in the believe of the "Big Picture" or "Greater Good". Fray comments on how something is skew with that girl.

If I'm remembering the issue correctly: She didn't want to help then because she wanted to look for Harth and Co. who were sending the vamps and stop it at the source. But she and Melaka could have taken care of the vampires and then done that.

When we switch back to ATS 5, Angel not only kills Drogyn suppostly for the "Greater Good",

Not for the greater good, but because if he didn't The Circle would have killed them both anyway.

 

[King of Hell]

I think a hero would kill for a greater good, if a hero was given a decision to kill someone to save hundreds & he did it, he'd be the hero of the piece, because if he didn't, he'd be indirectly responsible for those deaths, so if Angel killed Lilah instead of giving her idle threats, he would have arguably spared his son's childhood, & all the other innocents who died by her hands (commands, more accurately).
same goes with Giles, if he hadn't killed Ben, Glory would eventually consume other people's brains. so here Giles was the hero, not the other way around. he saved countless lives by killing one. its not an easy decision, but you have to weigh the consequences.
thats what I think anyway. Angel & Buffy became a little heartless later on, which I think is a good thing for "The Mission", if Angel was still the same guy by the end of Season 4, Jasmine would have probably enslaved mankind.
his decision to Kill Cordelia was the right decision, even though he was too late. his decision to kill drogyn was the right decision too, drogyn's death is better than the death of both of them, he was thinking he'd die after taking out the circle anyway..
am not saying its a good thing to watch, because from the viewer's point of view, they'd be considered less heroic. but if you view it as if you live in their world, it'd be a different story.

I think I got a little off-topic. anyway, I think Angel/Twilight is under the control of the universe, or partly at least, because even if Angel would give up on everyone in the world, his son is in it, & nobody would argue that Connor is the most precious thing Angel has. I'm not saying Angel would let the world behind him be destroyed, I'm saying even if he gave up on everyone in the world, Connor is still in it. & the only way Angel would do that to the world, would be for Connor's sake (& Buffy somehow).

 

[citiegal17]

If I'm remembering the issue correctly: She didn't want to help then because she wanted to look for Harth and Co. who were sending the vamps and stop it at the source. But she and Melaka could have taken care of the vampires and then done that.

Yes, and innocents could be killed in the process of looking for the source, thats kinda of my point its the thinking that innocents lives don't matter in the big picture.


Not for the greater good, but because if he didn't The Circle would have killed them both anyway.

Yes, that arguement I don't really like either, it was still wrong. Him killing him to save his own life doesn't make it any better, its better to die fighting to protect an innocent than to protect your own life and plan, its the honorable thing to do.

---------- Post added at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 AM ----------

I think a hero would kill for a greater good, if a hero was given a decision to kill someone to save hundreds & he did it, he'd be the hero of the piece, because if he didn't, he'd be indirectly responsible for those deaths, so if Angel killed Lilah instead of giving her idle threats, he would have arguably spared his son's childhood, & all the other innocents who died by her hands (commands, more accurately).
same goes with Giles, if he hadn't killed Ben, Glory would eventually consume other people's brains. so here Giles was the hero, not the other way around. he saved countless lives by killing one. its not an easy decision, but you have to weigh the consequences.
thats what I think anyway. Angel & Buffy became a little heartless later on, which I think is a good thing for "The Mission", if Angel was still the same guy by the end of Season 4, Jasmine would have probably enslaved mankind.
his decision to Kill Cordelia was the right decision, even though he was too late. his decision to kill drogyn was the right decision too, drogyn's death is better than the death of both of them, he was thinking he'd die after taking out the circle anyway..
am not saying its a good thing to watch, because from the viewer's point of view, they'd be considered less heroic. but if you view it as if you live in their world, it'd be a different story.

I think I got a little off-topic. anyway, I think Angel/Twilight is under the control of the universe, or partly at least, because even if Angel would give up on everyone in the world, his son is in it, & nobody would argue that Connor is the most precious thing Angel has. I'm not saying Angel would let the world behind him be destroyed, I'm saying even if he gave up on everyone in the world, Connor is still in it. & the only way Angel would do that to the world, would be for Connor's sake (& Buffy somehow).

Yes, but Angel is not a god and doesn't have the right to decide who lives and dies. Its still wrong when other characters did it, no matter what at stake. The end of the world doesn't change how wrong it is. Originally in the verse the heroes are suppost to go by human rules when it comes to humans, so that applies to Angel too. Also I still believe Angel cares about Connor, which is why I' m not believing this whole prophetcy thing, I actually thought it was OOC for him. Even in The Gift, when Giles kills Ben, he specifically says its the non heroic thing to do, so the definition of a hero, is one that doesn't kill in the name of the greater good.

---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 AM ----------

If I'm remembering the issue correctly: She didn't want to help then because she wanted to look for Harth and Co. who were sending the vamps and stop it at the source. But she and Melaka could have taken care of the vampires and then done that.


Yes,and innocents would be killed in the waiting to find the source, thats kinda of my whole point. The fact she didn't automatically come to help is slightly worrying. When the big picture is point ahead of innocents lives it is not a good thing. Which is precisely why I was talking about how this applies to BVS 5 and ATS 5, because the different takes on this are greatly connected to this issue in TOYL.

Not for the greater good, but because if he didn't The Circle would have killed them both anyway.

Yes, killing him to save his own life doesn't make it any better, in my own opinon its better to die protect an innocent and friend, then to save my own life killing an innocent. So actually the greater good does apply here as well too, because he believed stopping the Black Thorn was worth the risk of getting his own people killed, for just basically pissing off the W&H puppets, and stopping the machine for a second. The Greater Good was part of it, because he didn't think Drogyn's life was worth as much as stopping the Black Thorn. The whole it was a sucide mission makes it seem even more dumb, I mean if he thought he was going to die, then the best way to go out would be protecting his friend and dying, than the deciscion he choose.

 

[King of Hell]

Yes, that arguement I don't really like either, it was still wrong. Him killing him to save his own life doesn't make it any better, its better to die fighting to protect an innocent than to protect your own life and plan, its the honorable thing to do.

---------- Post added at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 AM ----------



Yes, but Angel is not a god and doesn't have the right to decide who lives and dies. Its still wrong when other characters did it, no matter what at stake. The end of the world doesn't change how wrong it is. Originally in the verse the heroes are suppost to go by human rules when it comes to humans, so that applies to Angel too. Also I still believe Angel cares about Connor, which is why I' m not believing this whole prophetcy thing, I actually thought it was OOC for him. Even in The Gift, when Giles kills Ben, he specifically says its the non heroic thing to do, so the definition of a hero, is one that doesn't kill in the name of the greater good.

Giles said it wasn't heroic to do it, though in an interview with one of the writers, he said Giles actually did the heroic thing.
a hero always ends up with hard decisions, a hero isn't a god, but he is a protector of mankind, & he has to do anything, no matter how hard it is, to protect mankind. Buffy killed ensouled Angel, even though he didn't even get his memories back yet (it takes a while), Buffy wasn't god, she was a hero, & she did whatever she had to to protect the world, even if it means killing an innocent, which also happened to be the love of her life.
sure Angel is a vampire, but it doesn't change the fact that he had nothing to do with it, yet he still had to suffer a century of torture.
its pretty much established that vampires aren't the human being they were (not until they get a soul), Spike knew that & he moved on, he considered himself as innocent, Angel still thinks he needs to pay for what he did, even though he wasn't responsible (kinda).
in the end, heroes are the ones stuck with hard decisions, that's why they are called heroes. what would you call someone who lets a human being walking around killing people in a way that the human law cannot govern?
Warren could be turned to the police, but what about Ben? Lilah? Possessed Cordy?
so if someone lets Ben live, who is Glory's half self, he is considered a hero? even though Glory would consume at least one person's brain a day?
Lilah & Possessed Cordy weren't killed, but the consequences were unthinkable.

anyway, which prophecy are you talking about? "The father will kill the son"? Sahjan went back in time & changed it to get rid of Connor, the prophecy says the son of two vampires would kill him. it was established in S3, & resolved in S5. Angel is a better fighter than Connor, but it was Connor's destiny to kill Sahjan, nobody could do it but him.

back to topic, if you read the last issues of the Angel comics, Angel is growing back his limbs, which could possibly mean that he's starting to go through the Twilight changes.

 

[citiegal17]

Giles said it wasn't heroic to do it, though in an interview with one of the writers, he said Giles actually did the heroic thing.
a hero always ends up with hard decisions, a hero isn't a god, but he is a protector of mankind, & he has to do anything, no matter how hard it is, to protect mankind. Buffy killed ensouled Angel, even though he didn't even get his memories back yet (it takes a while), Buffy wasn't god, she was a hero, & she did whatever she had to to protect the world, even if it means killing an innocent, which also happened to be the love of her life.
sure Angel is a vampire, but it doesn't change the fact that he had nothing to do with it, yet he still had to suffer a century of torture.
its pretty much established that vampires aren't the human being they were (not until they get a soul), Spike knew that & he moved on, he considered himself as innocent, Angel still thinks he needs to pay for what he did, even though he wasn't responsible (kinda).
in the end, heroes are the ones stuck with hard decisions, that's why they are called heroes. what would you call someone who lets a human being walking around killing people in a way that the human law cannot govern?
Warren could be turned to the police, but what about Ben? Lilah? Possessed Cordy?
so if someone lets Ben live, who is Glory's half self, he is considered a hero? even though Glory would consume at least one person's brain a day?
Lilah & Possessed Cordy weren't killed, but the consequences were unthinkable.

anyway, which prophecy are you talking about? "The father will kill the son"? Sahjan went back in time & changed it to get rid of Connor, the prophecy says the son of two vampires would kill him. it was established in S3, & resolved in S5. Angel is a better fighter than Connor, but it was Connor's destiny to kill Sahjan, nobody could do it but him.

back to topic, if you read the last issues of the Angel comics, Angel is growing back his limbs, which could possibly mean that he's starting to go through the Twilight changes.

I was talking about the Twilight prophetcy in the comic actually. I think people are entiled to their own defintion of heroism, so its easy to see how the writers could say that what Giles did to Ben is heroic. However, in their own writing they state it is not heroic. The whole people are numbers thing, seperates both ATS 5 and BVS 5, because when Giles killed Ben it was still seen as wrong, despite what was at stake. The whole problem with Angel deciding he can kill humans who themselves might be above the law, the ones that haven't been possesed by magical beings to be specific, is that he acts like he is above the law himself, that human laws don't apply to him like he is some sort of god. His whole redemption story is about paying for Angelus deeds, so he better not think its acceptable to kill people, if thats what his redemption thing is about. There are actually many reasons that people thought it was Angel all along, none of which requires a new personality. Twilight is manipulative, a cowardily murder, kills for the big picture, deceitful, controlling, could be seen as visionary, all of which are characteristics of Angel. Also a protector of mankind should not be killing other humans, except in the case of self defense or the defense of others, Angel himself was an innocent in the Acythla thing, so if it was wrong of him to die for what Angelus did then it seems hypcritical that it is okay for him to kill innocents in the name of the greater good, but not okay when Angelus does because he's pure evil.

 

[King of Hell]

it wasn't a rule in the show that what Giles did was wrong, it was his opinion that what he did was wrong.
& The Angel thing, yes he was innocent, but no it wasn't wrong, Buffy did the right thing, the heroic thing, if what she did to Angel was wrong, she isn't a hero. she killed Angel for the greater good.
later she came with the same choice, she told Giles that she did it once, but she is not gonna do it again, so if she didn't let Dawn jump she'd be a hero? she only redeemed herself after she actually jumped.

Twilight is manipulative, a cowardily murder, kills for the big picture, deceitful, controlling, could be seen as visionary, all of which are characteristics of Angel.

none of these are characteristics of Angel, if that was Angel, Lilah & Lindsay would be dead by the end of the first season.
Angel did it once to Lindsay, I don't know the exact reason, whether its his not-so-bright future, or that he doesn't trust him to change, but doing it once doesn't make it a characteristic.
Angel & Buffy both never believed in killing for the greater good, they did it once or twice, but they don't believe in it.
Twilight's actions are far from Angel's ways, the only way Angel would do that is if the universe unbalance by the slayers caused Connor to die. but Angel never walked around killing people for the greater picture.

Giles had a choice at the end of Season 5:
1- Kill Ben: save the lives of others
2- Let him Live: Glory would 100% at least consume brains, if not try to find another way to her dimension.

no matter what he does, a portion of people would see it as wrong, both actions are wrong, maybe no matter what he does both actions are unheroic, but to protect the lives of others, he has to end the life of one person.

Buffy & Angel later in their shows both have shown growth, Buffy said she'd sacrifice Dawn for the greater good, & Giles was pleased with that. & Angel in S4, he got to the point where his team's lives are more important than the other citizens, because lets face it, if they die, mankind is enslaved. again both choices are wrong, but they have to see the big picture.

the humans are governed by the human law, but some humans are above the law, Lindsay, Lilah, Ben-Glory...etc, they cannot be dealt with by the human law, letting Lilah live for 4 years had great consequences, one of them was having his son live in one of the worst Hell dimensions for 18 years, the death of everyone involved in any of her projects. & Lilah knows he doesn't kill humans, thats why she's not scared of him, she does what she wants, play with people, kill people, mess around, no matter what she does she has a get out of death card, & the law can't govern her, so how can someone stop what she is doing?

it was shown in the show that Buffy being willing to sacrifice Dawn was a positive change, & later Cordy came back from a coma willing to torture eve, & Angel told Harmony to eat Eve if she moves.
so Buffy, Angel, & Cordy's words/actions were wrong?
imo, no, it was the right thing to do, the heroic thing. if one murder is wrong, it would be Lindsay, Angel felt he had to, but this murder is the wrong one, Lindsay showed some signs to change, but Angel asked him before if he wanted to run W&H, & Lindsay said yes, but that still doesn't mean he won't change, unless Angel had another good reason, I see this murder as wrong, & only this murder.

 

[citiegal17]

it wasn't a rule in the show that what Giles did was wrong, it was his opinion that what he did was wrong.
& The Angel thing, yes he was innocent, but no it wasn't wrong, Buffy did the right thing, the heroic thing, if what she did to Angel was wrong, she isn't a hero. she killed Angel for the greater good.
later she came with the same choice, she told Giles that she did it once, but she is not gonna do it again, so if she didn't let Dawn jump she'd be a hero? she only redeemed herself after she actually jumped.



none of these are characteristics of Angel, if that was Angel, Lilah & Lindsay would be dead by the end of the first season.
Angel did it once to Lindsay, I don't know the exact reason, whether its his not-so-bright future, or that he doesn't trust him to change, but doing it once doesn't make it a characteristic.
Angel & Buffy both never believed in killing for the greater good, they did it once or twice, but they don't believe in it.
Twilight's actions are far from Angel's ways, the only way Angel would do that is if the universe unbalance by the slayers caused Connor to die. but Angel never walked around killing people for the greater picture.

Giles had a choice at the end of Season 5:
1- Kill Ben: save the lives of others
2- Let him Live: Glory would 100% at least consume brains, if not try to find another way to her dimension.

no matter what he does, a portion of people would see it as wrong, both actions are wrong, maybe no matter what he does both actions are unheroic, but to protect the lives of others, he has to end the life of one person.

Buffy & Angel later in their shows both have shown growth, Buffy said she'd sacrifice Dawn for the greater good, & Giles was pleased with that. & Angel in S4, he got to the point where his team's lives are more important than the other citizens, because lets face it, if they die, mankind is enslaved. again both choices are wrong, but they have to see the big picture.

the humans are governed by the human law, but some humans are above the law, Lindsay, Lilah, Ben-Glory...etc, they cannot be dealt with by the human law, letting Lilah live for 4 years had great consequences, one of them was having his son live in one of the worst Hell dimensions for 18 years, the death of everyone involved in any of her projects. & Lilah knows he doesn't kill humans, thats why she's not scared of him, she does what she wants, play with people, kill people, mess around, no matter what she does she has a get out of death card, & the law can't govern her, so how can someone stop what she is doing?

it was shown in the show that Buffy being willing to sacrifice Dawn was a positive change, & later Cordy came back from a coma willing to torture eve, & Angel told Harmony to eat Eve if she moves.
so Buffy, Angel, & Cordy's words/actions were wrong?
imo, no, it was the right thing to do, the heroic thing. if one murder is wrong, it would be Lindsay, Angel felt he had to, but this murder is the wrong one, Lindsay showed some signs to change, but Angel asked him before if he wanted to run W&H, & Lindsay said yes, but that still doesn't mean he won't change, unless Angel had another good reason, I see this murder as wrong, & only this murder.

Actually no I don't consider Buffy willing to murder Dawn is not a postive change at all. Cordy toturing Eve would be wrong too, and if Angel allowed Harmony to eat Eve he would be accountable and wrong. Actually Angel is manipulative(tricking Faith into thinking he is evil, Enemies), decitful(Mindwipes his friends), kills for the greater good(Drogyn&Linsey), a visionary(all through ATS he talks about how the world should be),a cowardily murder(killing Drogyn to save his own life), and all these characterstics are plenty well obvious in ATS and BVS. Angel has no say on whether or not someone deserves to be redeemed or not, he is not the all decider of stuff like that. I'm sorry but when you kill someone based on the belief the greater good not once but twice it is a characteristic. Its complete BS to say he had to kill Drogyn he most definitely did not, they didn't force him, he choose to as in "Free Will' and he is accountable.

 

[King of Hell]

obviously our opinion of heroism is different, & I don't think I can change yours, nor you can change mine, so lets leave it at that.

Actually no I don't consider Buffy willing to murder Dawn is not a postive change at all. Cordy toturing Eve would be wrong too, and if Angel allowed Harmony to eat Eve he would be accountable and wrong. Actually Angel is manipulative(tricking Faith into thinking he is evil, Enemies), decitful(Mindwipes his friends), kills for the greater good(Drogyn&Linsey), a visionary(all through ATS he talks about how the world should be),a cowardily murder(killing Drogyn to save his own life), and all these characterstics are plenty well obvious in ATS and BVS. Angel has no say on whether or not someone deserves to be redeemed or not, he is not the all decider of stuff like that. I'm sorry but when you kill someone based on the belief the greater good not once but twice it is a characteristic. Its complete BS to say he had to kill Drogyn he most definitely did not, they didn't force him, he choose to as in "Free Will' and he is accountable.

as I've already said in my previous post, Angel would do everything he did as Twilight & more, if it comes to Connor. even though I don't think what he did was wrong, nor did Wesley. its either let Connor kill himself & the other innocents, or to mindwipe his son & his friends. its not the right way to save his son, but he'll do anything, right or wrong, for his son.

manipulative (Faith): so Angel did what Buffy told him to, manipulate someone who was EVIL, & that is a wrong thing? I guess every undercover detective in the world is manipulative then.

Drogyn: he didn't do it to save his own ass, its either let him live & let the circle kill them both, or kill him & proceed with the suicidal plan. in his mind, they'd both die in either choices, the latter choice would mean he'd die after eliminating the circle.

Lindsay: yes this murder was wrong, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, Lindsay had a chance to change twice, but as soon as he sees the big office & the big paycheck, he switches sides. Lindsay himself told him he'd run for CEO of W&H after the battle. Lindsay isn't evil, its just business, killing people is just an unavoidable consequence to his position. Lorne agreed because he heard the man sing, so Lindsay has 2 sources against him. am not saying what Angel did was right, even if Lindsay would run W&H, the future isn't written on stone, he could change.

he tries to save people's souls if he has the chance, he tried with Faith, she went to double murder sentence so she proved worthy. he tried it with Lindsay twice, the first time he double crossed him & tried to burn the prophecy which means Cordy would die. after the second time he came back, tried to make Angel a vegetable, & then activated the failsafe to kill Angel. & who knows what the rest of his plan was.
so Angel tried to help Lindsay, Lindsay just wasn't strong enough.

 

[citiegal17]

obviously our opinion of heroism is different, & I don't think I can change yours, nor you can change mine, so lets leave it at that.



as I've already said in my previous post, Angel would do everything he did as Twilight & more, if it comes to Connor. even though I don't think what he did was wrong, nor did Wesley. its either let Connor kill himself & the other innocents, or to mindwipe his son & his friends. its not the right way to save his son, but he'll do anything, right or wrong, for his son.

manipulative (Faith): so Angel did what Buffy told him to, manipulate someone who was EVIL, & that is a wrong thing? I guess every undercover detective in the world is manipulative then.

Drogyn: he didn't do it to save his own ass, its either let him live & let the circle kill them both, or kill him & proceed with the suicidal plan. in his mind, they'd both die in either choices, the latter choice would mean he'd die after eliminating the circle.

Lindsay: yes this murder was wrong, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, Lindsay had a chance to change twice, but as soon as he sees the big office & the big paycheck, he switches sides. Lindsay himself told him he'd run for CEO of W&H after the battle. Lindsay isn't evil, its just business, killing people is just an unavoidable consequence to his position. Lorne agreed because he heard the man sing, so Lindsay has 2 sources against him. am not saying what Angel did was right, even if Lindsay would run W&H, the future isn't written on stone, he could change.

he tries to save people's souls if he has the chance, he tried with Faith, she went to double murder sentence so she proved worthy. he tried it with Lindsay twice, the first time he double crossed him & tried to burn the prophecy which means Cordy would die. after the second time he came back, tried to make Angel a vegetable, & then activated the failsafe to kill Angel. & who knows what the rest of his plan was.
so Angel tried to help Lindsay, Lindsay just wasn't strong enough.

Actually I never said he was wrong to manipulate Faith who was evil at that time. There is something messed up about a person seeking redemption, who decides he has the right to decide whether someone still deserves a chance at redemption. Lorne was deeply affected by killing Lindsey and he knew it was wrong. Doyle, Fred, and Cordelia, died with the believe that Angel would be "Helping the Helpless", no matter what the price to him. Doyle died to protect the innocents, with the believe that Angel would protect innocents, not kill them when it would stop him from taking out a group of demons. Did everything he stand for mean nothing? Killing Drogyn was a betrayal of everything he stood, whether it was right or wrong, it was a violation of everything he stood for.

 

[King of Hell]

Actually I never said he was wrong to manipulate Faith who was evil at that time. There is something messed up about a person seeking redemption, who decides he has the right to decide whether someone still deserves a chance at redemption. Lorne was deeply affected by killing Lindsey and he knew it was wrong. Doyle, Fred, and Cordelia, died with the believe that Angel would be "Helping the Helpless", no matter what the price to him. Doyle died to protect the innocents, with the believe that Angel would protect innocents, not kill them when it would stop him from taking out a group of demons. Did everything he stand for mean nothing? Killing Drogyn was a betrayal of everything he stood, whether it was right or wrong, it was a violation of everything he stood for.

I agree that what he did to Lindsay & Drogyn is wrong, but in Drogyn's case he had no choice, his plan would be down the drain, & if he dies, the Senior Partners would probably get rid of his friends, they're not mentioned in any prophecy. he didn't just save himself, & didn't just save his plan, but he also saved his friends.
Lindsay's murder is wrong I know. anyway, in after the Fall he had the chance to kill Gunn who killed his SON, but he didn't, he was back to his old ways. the W&H days were just a phase, in Lindsay's murder he was wrong, & in Drogyn's murder he had no choice.

ok let's pretend he murdered the both of them for the sake of fun, two murders in two nights. does that make it a characteristic? no, & ATF proves that.

I get the impression that you hate Angel :confused3:, do you hate him? or at least dislike him?