UK versus US: All your sci-fis are belong to us.

nerd4hire

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I saw a link to the below at Whedonesque, and thought hey, that sounds like good fodder for a friendly disagreement. We have so many Sci-Fi/Fantasy fans from both sides of the Atlantic here. It's from Matt Roush's TV Guide Q&A column...

Question: In reviewing your column, I have seen some references to Life on Mars and Torchwood. I am an expatriate Brit and have been watching Doctor Who since I was a kid back in the '60s. Doctor Who is practically an institution to the Brits who grew up with it, and of course Torchwood is a great recent spin-off. Life on Mars was, I thought, one of the most intelligent TV offerings in years (on either side of the pond). I love Moonlight and New Amsterdam, and I read and watch fantasy wherever I can get it. Over the years, when discussing a piece of recently enjoyed fantasy with my friends here in the U.S., I have noticed the Brits seem far more ready to suspend disbelief and go along for the ride. The Yanks seem to always be dissecting everything (scoffing regularly "as if that could happen.") I noticed this in their reaction to Moonlight (which caught on very quickly in Britain) and New Amsterdam, and many of them don't even know about Life on Mars, Torchwood or the good doctor. I am not saying that no Americans have it in them to enjoy a good fantasy or that all Brits do, but have you noticed that the really imaginative stuff either comes from there or is more readily accepted there, and that all the reality drek, while not completely ignored, does not do so well there? Are we Brits more imaginitive, more prepared to go for the ride and more willing to be amused rather than amazed? "” Lyn

Matt Roush: Excuse me? In hopes of stemming off an avalanche of heated responses from indignant Yanks, can I just offer up a few choice titles like The X-Files, Lost, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Battlestar Galactica (current version), Farscape, all the way back to The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits "” and, dare we mention, Star Trek? "” if anyone wants to play the anything-you-can-do-I-can-do-better game. The appetite for fantasy and sci-fi is as strong here as it is anywhere, but the mass marketplace where U.S. broadcast TV is concerned can be a notoriously tough nut for many genre shows to crack. Whatever anyone thinks about Moonlight, its scheduling on Fridays was also going to make it a cult show at best. And if lots of Americans have yet to embrace Life on Mars and Torchwood, that may have something to do with their being primarily available on the relatively niche (though glorious) BBC America channel. As for reality TV: Where do you think many of our most popular concepts originated? Europe. And in the case of American Idol, in the U.K. with Pop Idol. The idea that reality doesn't sell across the pond is nonsense. Its pervasiveness in overseas markets has everything to do with why we're constantly being assaulted by fresh (and often foul) new formats.

Analyzing Trees' Latest Rescheduling, Trimming Biggest Loser's Fat, Predicting Moonlight's Renewal and More! - Ask Matt | TVGuide.com
 
Tueuse de Vampires
Tueuse de Vampires
whatever happened to all the other countries...we have TV as well!
Ooh, thesis fodder! Ursula K. Le Guin wrote several essays on this subject. She believed that Americans are afraid of Fantasy because it's "irrational," a "waste of time," etc. Imagination is not welcomed in American society as a whole. Hence why those of us who like SciFi/Fantasy are considered "geeks."
 
S
Senior Watcher
amen sister! now, where is my pocket protector?
Yeah, but "geek" culture has less of a stigma attached to it now, doesn't it? Since...maye the early 90s. I dunno. X-Files eventually became a pretty large, mainstream hit in the US. And it's the comic book flick golden age now.
 
Does it? Or has the internet just brought all of us together and made it SEEM that way? I still get weird looks from those not in my immediate circle of friends when I say I watch Buffy or the X-Files or play D&D or anything "geeky."
 
Yeah I get The Look for being a Buffy and Angel fan. And it's Social Death if I admit I'm still a fan of The X-Files but so many Buffy/Angel alumni have said they love sci-fi shows so I don't worry too much. Haha

As for this article. I just don't agree. It's the same on both side of the Atlantic. You'll get people who go 'WOW!' and people who go 'Yeah right' and you can't generalize shows all together. And you can't say one set of shows are seen as better than the other or whatever it is this guy seems to be generally saying.

I mean I loved Life on Mars, but I really can't watch Doctor Who. And Moonlight- grr, that show annoys me something awful. Yet New Amsterdam? Definitely a diamond in the rough there. And of course Buffy, Angel etc and The X-Files- still love 'em no matter how long they're off the air. Haha
 
Social Suicide agrees: whatever happened to all the other countries...we have TV as well!

Hmm...good point. So what are we saying then? The true masters of Sci Fi/Fantasy are German, French, or Australian?

I'm going to lay a claim for Canadians. We don't actually do much creating, but without us the classics of both the UK and the US are crippled. The new Doctor Who required Canadian money to get started. I think there were canuck bucks in Torchwood as well. One of the guys behind the James Bond movie franchise was, or is Canadian. X-Files, Dark Angel, Wonderfalls and many others were filmed in Canada. X-Men 1,2, and 3...filmed in Canada. Also Sarah Connors, Chronicles, Supernatural, Smallville, and again others, in fact most of the crap Sci Fi that's around is currently FIC.

Superman was created by a Canadian. Captain Kirk was Canadian.

The Autralia/New Zealanders can make a point for themselves as a Genre capital too. LOTR, Mad Max, Babe.
 
R
Randy Giles
Did you watch The Collector? That was Canadian.
I've been a science fiction/fantasy fan for close to fifty years, and I've heard this argument or others similar to it off and on for most of that time. Personally, I never cared one way or the other where a movie or show was produced or filmed. Let's face it, Barsoom, Cimmeria, Middle Earth, Narnia, Oz, Neverland, or all of the other wonderful places we visit in our minds, whether we get there by mystic teleportation, the Starship Enterprise, or a magic carpet, it doesn't really matter, because they don't exist in our physical world anyway. What matters is the quality of the product, and as long as the product has that quality, who cares where the filming was done or the actors were born?
 
The people of Wales that's who. 😛 They're all choked with pride now because Doctor Who is filmed in Cardiff.

Seriously though, I don't think there's much to the first guy's argument. He seemed to think one nationality, or group could lay claim to a kind of regional collective unconscious that offered either a more open mind to the fantastic, or the kind of creativity that sparked it.

What is mildly interesting though is when you consider Sci-fi/fantasy by region, and wonder if there is any kind of distinctive flavor, and if so what that might be, or what might cause it, and is it a regional thing, or is it more how a historical period acts upon it.

For example consider Asia today, or recently with Manga/Anime, or chop suey flicks warping into fantasy.

Or consider middle Europe and how film sci-fi is kind of birthed out of German expressionism with Metropolis, or the evolution of Sci Fi from something like Kafka.

Does regional Zeitgeist matter when you consider what sci-fi/fantasy is, where in the human mind does it come from, what's it's purpose?

What I mean is "Nothing to see here. Move along people" kind of over-simplifies, and isn't valid critique.
 
white avenger
white avenger
Wasn't "Nasferatu" before "Metropolis"? Not that it matters for your argument, I was just curious.
Does it? Or has the internet just brought all of us together and made it SEEM that way? I still get weird looks from those not in my immediate circle of friends when I say I watch Buffy or the X-Files or play D&D or anything "geeky."

Yeah I dunno. Sci-fi, fantasy are and always will be an instant turn off for many, and dissed and ridiculed. And honestly, fans of these genres can often be social misfits to varying degrees...there's some truth there. Just seems like fantasy, sc-fi is as big a part of mainstream pop culture as it has ever been...especially with vid games, and everything that's technically feasible in film now.

Those Le Guin essays sound really interesting though. I'd be curious about when she wrote them, cos I'm just wondering if there isn't an ebb and flow in American culture...like maybe it's sometimes more, sometimes less receptive to fantasy, imaginative fiction.

I definitely feel like there's a strong no-nonsense, grounded, pragmatic streak in the American character, whatever you'd want to call it. And there's not an ancient mythological, fantastical literary tradition to draw on.

Is there something in the British character that's more tolerant of, receptive to eccentricity, oddness, fantasy, whatever? That seems to be the perception at times. No idea.


What is mildly interesting though is when you consider Sci-fi/fantasy by region, and wonder if there is any kind of distinctive flavor, and if so what that might be, or what might cause it, and is it a regional thing, or more how a historical period acts upon it.

For example consider Asia today, or recently with Manga/Anime, or chop suey flicks warping into fantasy.

Or consider middle Europe and how film sci-fi is kind of birthed out of German expression with Metropolis, or the evolution of Sci Fi from something like Kafka.

Does regional Zeitgeist matter when you consider what sci-fi/fantasy is, where in the human mind does it come from, what's it's purpose?

American film noir has had an impact on American sci-fi. And...I guess noir has its roots in German expressionism, somewhat. The visuals, anyway. There's all kinds of back-and-forth, cross-pollination. And I wonder if the tradition of the Western hasn't had an impact on American fantasy. Firefly/Serenity, of course. Stephen King's Dark Tower stuff, etc. Westerns are American mythology if there is such a thing. But there are similar lone warrior themes in other cultures too.

Yeah I think you can get unique, interesting flavors, from country to country...and maybe specific themes come up more often in certain traditions? I dunno.

As far as science fiction specifically, I wonder if that's not (historically at least) a unique strength of Western culture...linear, forward driven, technology driven...the Western scientific method, Western logic. You think of Japan, China being so technology driven these days...but there's the huge impact from the West.

And now there's just the tremendous cultural back-and-forth of Eastern and Western ideas, approaches.
 
Those Le Guin essays sound really interesting though. I'd be curious about when she wrote them, cos I'm just wondering if there isn't an ebb and flow in American culture...like maybe it's sometimes more, sometimes less receptive to fantasy, imaginative fiction.

Her essays were written in the 70s and 80s and are collected in a book called The Language of the Night. Very good book, not only for those particular essays but for her speeches on sci-fi, her thoughts on writing, and other such things.
 
Umm... can we really be having this discussion without mentioning Edgar Allen Poe? This debate goes back to the romantic era, with authors like Poe on our side of the pond and Mary Shelley on the Brits' side. I'm not denying that, but...

Who gave us the first instance of space travel in fiction? Poe. Who gave us the first a-comet-causes-the-apocalypse story? Poe. Physical time travel? Poe. Plausible, complex, and scientifically advanced future society? Poe. Poe! Poe! Poe!

I mean, the list goes on and on. Read Eureka, and I guarantee you'll s*** a figurative brick. I know I did. I went all highlight and post-it-note crazy and then went to my professor all open-mouthed and was like, "How the heck did he know about this stuff in 1848?!" He mentioned things like the Big Bang and black holes. Eureka is incredibly complex. There are many ways to read it. It doesn't even seem to fit normal categories of fiction/non-fiction or prose/poem, but while he got some things wrong and was sometimes more comical than serious and did have that pesky, niggling, and often-mentioned idea about the hole in the middle of the Earth, you can't deny that his is the first written document to theorize a lot of 20th century scientific discoveries. I, personally, am convinced that he had some Buddha-like moment of scientific and spiritual enlightenment while writing it. lol.

To say that we Americans are somehow lacking in the Sci-Fi department is utterly ridiculous when we have Poe on our team. He is known for his macabre work, but he is the father of detective fiction and if not the father of sci-fi, then certainly one of its earliest and most influential writers. Plus, he solved the Olbers' paradox.

I know I’m revealing myself as a Poe fanatic, but I just don’t see how anyone can call American Sci-Fi unimaginative when one of ours should really hold the title “Father of Science Fiction,” especially since he wrote all of his work and died before the two most recognized claimants to the title, Frenchman Jules Verne and Brit H. G. Wells, were even active in literature (or, in the case of Wells, even born).


Take that, Brits! We have Poe, whom I love for his big, beautiful brain.
 
People are always shocked to hear my favorite movies, shows, and books, because I'm a huge genre freak (although I love a TON of shows that aren't genre as well), so I get "The Look" as well, haha. I guess I don't look like someone who people would stereotype as being into that sort of stuff.

Anyways, most of my favorites originate in America, especially TV-wise, but overall it's a nice blend from everywhere. I don't think one place makes better product than the other.

I also am not sure if I buy that genre is becoming significantly more accepted in the U.S., although perhaps a little. LOST started losing viewers when the sci-fi elements became more prominent, The X-Files wasn't that massive of a hit, when I was looking in a season 4 companion guide I seem to remember it just averaging around what Prison Break gets, which isn't anything huge. Good for FOX, maybe. (I suppose I could be remembering wrong.)

Although I'm hoping if the networks keep churning out genre shows that eventually the public will learn to accept them and give them a chance.
 
I must admit this has made me chukkle a few times.
I loved the quote by Matt Roush, including Buffy The Vampire Slayer in great things Americans have done. Wasn't Joss Whedon born in England ?
It makes no difference wether you like it or not, the argueably best Sci-Fi at the moment is SG-1, that's done in Canada, where was Sarah Michelle Gellar born ?
Which country makes the best Sci-Fi? the answer depends on what programmes you like, for me I'd go with Red Dwarf and Hitch Hikers Guide....
As for supernatural fantasy. Britain is a damn sight older than most countries, a lot of stuff started there.
For arguements sake, I researched ghosts in America and Australia, then I researched ghosts in Britain. Compared with Britain, America and Australia joined would get a 1 out of ten for trying, while Britain would get 10 out of 10.
 
nerd4hire
nerd4hire
Joss Whedon went with his mother to England after his parents divorced.
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