Us Healthcare Debate

[Schillaci]

Okies, where do you stand? You don't have to explain your reasoning, but it would be appreciated.

I won't post my position until there's been a dozen replies(yes I'm optimistic/naive) or so, so as to not bias the replies. You know what I'm saying!

 

[Blondie Bear]

I don't think our government is competent enough to handle something so huge.

 

[caitaintdead]

I don't want to get into a political debate, but I'm a leftie.

 

[Silum]

Well I had a very real decison to make recently over where I want to actually dedicate my time to stay (trying to become a paramedic) and chose England almost entirely down to the NHS. People accuse our healthcare of overstretched and a nightmare, many of these critics are in the US. I remember even watching a documentary over in Cali stating just how 'terrible Canadas healthcare is' with the UK coming close second.. what a giant crock. I challenge those people to actually experience what free healthcare is like, take a little trip across the border.

Hell, a year and a half ago I had a 10 night stay in hospital, 3 surgeries under general anasthetic, umpteen CT's and Xrays, along with an ambulance and a helicopter on scene...my total bill. What bill?

Just before I left the US for uni, I was sick with a wierd form of mono, I was in hospital for a day and a half, had a local surgery. Total bill... $15,000. Luckily my dads plan covered us....EVENTUALLY.

I hear horrors of it being a sneaky way for socialism to infect US politics. Give me a break, with so many people without health insurance and an entire industry driven solely by money (i'm not nieve, I know the role money plays, but something's wrong) something has to change. Some kind of universal plan is merely the first step in my opinion.

/late night rants

 

[Crashing Doors]

I'm kind of undecided. I go back in forth, but I absolutely loath getting into politics. It's such a personal thing (and I'm a very personal person) but it's very hard to not get into an argumenet over political issues.

I don't know how I feel about government run health care right now--I mean, to have government running healthcare in 2009, I don't think is a great idea. Maybe fix some other things first, get back on our feet, then tackle healthcare. With this war still going on, with all these things seemingly falling apart, it'd make sense to me to at least knock out a couple big things before engaging in another big thing.

Then again, healthcare is screwed, so it's hard not to want to do something about it now.

I'm kind of a Neo-Malthusian myself though. I don't want to kill a bunch of babies, but it'd be nice if the population growth would slow down, or even decline a bit. Fixing health care won't do much good 20 years down the line if we have gazillions more people in the country, with a government that can barely support the 2009 population.

 

[JCC]

Clearly healthcare should be socialised, it's a non-issue in the 21st century. America is lagging behind all of the other countries that are making significant headway with their socialised medicine, if you look at the WHO rankings America is doing terribly, floating around in developing country limbo whilst countries like France are dominating with their standard of healthcare. America is a strange country in that the population have been convinced that what's best for them is a terrible atrocity, and what's worst for them and best for the top percentile is representative of freedom and liberty and all of that star spangled banner schmultz.

 

[Friendly Lurker]

Well, since I am Finnish it may not come as a shock that I advocate social democracy. I think the government definitely should provide free healthcare, education and social security to ensure equal opportunity for everyone regardless of how wealthy they are. It's easy to take education and healthcare for granted in some parts of Europe but it's quite shocking to think that if I was born in another country, I might not be able to go to a university just because I don't have a hundred thousand stashed somewhere.

I hear horrors of it being a sneaky way for socialism to infect US politics.

It's rather annoying how some Americans seem to find anything that starts with "social" bad. The Cold War is over and social security doesn't mean communism.

Anyway, I suppose one of the problems for free health care in the US is that the government simply doesn't operate many medical facilities and so the only option is to just get health insurance for everyone. Which is quite expensive, I imagine. Finland started building an extensive network of municipal health centers in the 70s so unlike the US, we only have a small private sector.

Either way, if there was a strong national will, I'm sure America could achieve it.

 

[Wanabee-slayer]

I voted for the left of centre because that is what I support but I must admit there are a lot of issues that need to be solved. When I was in hospital they had me in the bones wards and then moved me down to maternity because they honestly did not have enough beds to put me anywhere else! I think they need to have enough spaces to accommodate everyone first but free health care is something that everyone should have access to!

 

[white avenger]

A government health care program is good for those who can't afford insurance, but if you think that it is by any means free, you are sadly mistaken. It's just another weight added to the taxpayers' already back breaking load. Anything, ANYTHING, that the government gets involved in any private enterprise, the ultimate cost goes up amd the quality goes in the toilet. Maybe it works well in England, and maybe it would work well in this country EVENTUALLY, but not in my lifetime or the lifetime of anyone here over the age of 30.

Oh, and just in case anyone thinks that all of these new programs that Obama and his people are throwing money blindly at are going to be paid for by raising "only the taxes of the rich," figure this: if the total taxes of every American citizen were TRIPLED, and I'm talking about straight taxes, no shaky deductions or tax loopholes, it would still take over five years to equal the money that Obama has given away just since he has been in office.

(Luckily, I swore that I would give the new administration a whole year before I said "I told you so," or this would be a novel instead of a post)

The bottom line is, just like Spike said about magic, "There's always a price." Let's just not delude ourselves into thinking that we aren't the ones who will ultimately pay this price.

 

[Friendly Lurker]

A government health care program is good for those who can't afford insurance, but if you think that it is by any means free, you are sadly mistaken.

I can only speak for myself but I'm pretty sure no one here thinks you can just wave a magic wand and get healthcare for everyone.

if the total taxes of every American citizen were TRIPLED, and I'm talking about straight taxes, no shaky deductions or tax loopholes, it would still take over five years to equal the money that Obama has given away just since he has been in office.

I'm not sure how accurate these numbers are but mighty Google tells me that the average American paid $9,377 of income tax in 2004. If we triple that and assume there are 138 million taxpayers in the US, that makes $3.8 trillion. Over 5 years that's almost 20 trillion dollars. Has Obama really spent that much?

 

[Crashing Doors]

I'm not one of those people who thinks the whole world is going to crumble down on the weight of 1 US President--I love the country, but I'm not so thick-headed--but I am skeptical that doing things the European way won't work well for us. We've a much bigger population, and that has to change the game at least a little bit.

I don't quite believe that "what's worst for [us] and best for the top percentile is representative of freedom and liberty", and that we should forget about the poor, but I'm not 100% sure that what's best for Finland and Canada and the UK is best for the US either.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I'm pretty far left of centre (living off a welfare pension, it would be hopycritical not to be leftist, I guess. 😛 ). I've always found it incredible how a leading western-industrial nation like the US could go without universal health care and other stuff we Europeans pretty much take for granted. Fingers crossed they get it right implementing it.

 

[Blondie Bear]

This is the kind of thing that makes me go "Ergh. No thank you."

Undesirable new experiences : Robin McKinley

 

[JCC]

As regards the American national debt, that's because you don't pay taxes. There's no revenue coming in from tax money, but America still needs to buy things, so debt just piled up. That's what you get for flying the flag of the free market, I mean, look at Reagan. The national debt rose exponentially during his time as president, precisely because expenditure wasn't subsidised by taxation. America would be a lot better off if it shirked these ideas of tax being representative of oppression.

 

[Fake Shemp]

Healthcare for all. 'nuff said.

 

[Silum]

A government health care program is good for those who can't afford insurance, but if you think that it is by any means free, you are sadly mistaken. It's just another weight added to the taxpayers' already back breaking load. Anything, ANYTHING, that the government gets involved in any private enterprise, the ultimate cost goes up amd the quality goes in the toilet.

Noone questions the price, noone questions the importance of this issue, I'm not sure what you are saying with this? That because it costs so much, that socialised health care is so terrible that millions should die?

Do I believe nationalised healthcare is available overnight? of course not... though the UK implemented it in the space of a decade, despite equivalent financial and FAR GREATER ecenomic restraints.

Please, please question your motivations on this issue. I get that this is a finacial issue at the end of the day, just know that 20% of Americans are without ANY healthcare what-so-ever. It IS a flawed system and it demands IMMEDIATE change for the sake of your own country. I feel very very sorry, if it's only those outside of the US who are able to realise this.

On your last point. I agree. As Spike says, 'there is always a price'... my only wish is that you would see the real price is a flawed healthcare system and the mass numbers who are subjected to it...

You either like the system how it is, or you demand change. You deicide.. me? It is flawed beyond recognition. Left=Change. Right= Acceptance in a flawed system... I pity those accepting the current system... imo.

 

[Mesektet Ra]

I know so very little about politics...and so very, very little on this subject I'm about to make myself look like a massive dumbass here, so forgive my heaping amount of stupidity, 'kay? Thanks.

I just figure, personal experience talking...I was under my mom's insurance for a while, but one of the stipulations on my coverage was full-time student status, so they dropped me [haven't been in college for over a year, natch]. I wasn't notified until after I was in the hospital for my ITP, so I was three months pregnant, running around like a goddamn chicken with my head cut off trying to get state aid for me and the baby because, and this might sound lazy to you, but this economy sucks so much balls that trying to find a job right now, to me, is a useless endeavor entirely. And even if I did find a job, I wouldn't be covered under insurance for another year, so I had no choice to get the state insurance.

From what I hear, I'm a perfect candidate for the insurance - friends tell me they couldn't get it because they actually have jobs, and they weren't pregnant. I don't know about the insurance for any other state, but in Illinois it seems to have been set up solely for broke pregnant women. And even then, there are so many issues with dealing with the DHS office and trying to keep the insurance and actually having them pay your bills, it's a ridiculous pain in the ass. One of my claims from my hospital stay was denied because I, apparently, have another primary insurance which...I don't. It's stupid, irritating shit like that that makes me wish I could pay the money for some private insurance company.

Anyway, but I guess since I'm already on Medicaid, I'd have to say free healthcare would be nice, especially if they could fix the issues already running rampant with the system. But I don't know jack about taxes and debts, so me sitting here trying to come up with some awesome reason why would be kind of moot.

 

[Silum]

The fact that the president had to take a public stand on a rumor that at another time might appear absurd (it would be political suicide for anyone to suggest the government promote euthanasia) shows that the opposition is making inroads in stoking fear about healthcare overhaul.

http://blogs.reuters.com/frontrow/2009/08/11/obama-doesnt-want-to-pull-plug-on-grandma/

Fear mongering works wonders.

Same as it was for the last 20 odd years, whatever tactic works to scare the american public into thinking that a quarter of the population without healthacare is actually a good thing and that another quarter are denied benefits based on pre-existing conditions.

at what point do I point to so many other nations? Even considered second or 3rd world? To be fair, I think the point is lost on all those who never considered it a problem to begin with. ...?

 

[Blondie Bear]

I do think we need an overhaul of our current system (you're right, Silum; the pre-existing condition thing is the DUMBEST thing EVER), however, I don't think our government is the organization to do it. Maybe they could regulate the overhaul, but run the whole system? No, thank you.

 

[Silum]

I do think we need an overhaul of our current system (you're right, Silum; the pre-existing condition thing is the DUMBEST thing EVER), however, I don't think our government is the organization to do it. Maybe they could regulate the overhaul, but run the whole system? No, thank you.

I do agree. This is such a complex problem that involves so many agencies its almost inconceivable for a US government to legitimately take control.

I would just like to point out that the 'NHS' was pointed out as flawed by the same 'critics' for this very same reason and that it was able to overcome this....nationalistion isn't the problem... I'm not suggesting that a national overhaul is the solution but that the current system is so flawed than a solution is needed rather than requested. Americans (trust me, I know) have a natural disposition against any control... wheras I think this American fight against national control has led to a flawed health care system...one that is mocked by most of the developed world.