Vampires and Souls

white avenger

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
16,036
Age
78
Location
rome, georgia
Why did it take so long for Angel to fully come to terms with his soul when it only took Spike a few months? (By "come to terms," I mean get past the initial shock of the realization of the evil, pain, and suffering that they had been responsible for and begin trying to atone for it)
 
I think part of it was Spike wanting his soul and having an idea of what he was getting into. Part of it was Angel (Liam) being so whiny in the first place. And (this is my own pet theory) I think Spike retained some residual humanity when he was turned. Hence the ability to love (which Angelus didn't have) and the self-awareness to know that a soul was needed to be the person he wanted to be (which Angelus didn't even want). I hope that made some sort of sense.
 
S
Spike Angelus
Spike wanted his soul, Angelus didn't. That's waht I always thought.
definition of insane
definition of insane
Great minds do think alike! ;)
V
Vicariously
applauds* genious BB just genious lol :P
For Angel it could have been the shock and realisation that he had a soul, but Spike knew what he was in for and he knew he was getting his soul back?

I'm not really sure about that though. Also, when Angel gets his soul back for the second time (in Becoming Part 2) he seems to be in pain and doesn't really seem to remember anything.. and then the 3rd time he gets his soul back (Orpheus) he just gets up immediately without any pain and seems to remember everything immediately?
 
Maybe because Angelus didn't want a soul? And he'd been around longer, hence killed a lot more. And Spike was already over two years off killing, so maybe it was easier for him to see this in the past.
I don't know if this is of any importance, but it could also have something to do with the way they killed. Angelus loved to drive people crazy, best example is Dru. He made his victims suffer before he got to the kill. Spike, on the other hand, just killed and that's it.
 
I think the reason Angel took so long to come to terms with having a soul was because A) it had never happened before. A vampire having a soul was unprecedented and he had no idea what was happening or how to deal with it. Imagine being TOTALLY alone in the world, not having a single friend or ANYONE for that matter who cared about you or even knew you. Cuz that is what Angel was facing when his soul was given back to him. The world that he did know was gone. Spike still had Buffy and Angel if he needed him to fall back on them. He had a comfort zone that Angel never had until he met Buffy and even then said comfort zone came back and bit him in the arse. B) The soul was thrust upon him, not only did Spike go looking for it he had a fair idea of what a vampire with a soul would mean. He saw the difference between Angel and Angelus. He at least had a vision of what was before him. Angel didn't know what he was supposed to be or what his urpose was. Whistler provided that for him. When Spike went to get his soul it was a means to an ends, he knew why he was doing it and how it would happen. For the whole experience Angel was pretty much in the dark.
 
I always thought that while yes both Spike and Angel had done horrific and torturous things as vampires, Angelus had been the one who took pre joy in it all. 'Did it with a song in my heart' and all that. Angelus had been pure soulless evil-even The Judge said that of him in Innocence whilst he claimed Spike stunk of humanity.
Angelus had so much more to come to terms with as his attitude as a vampire had been so much worse than Spike who had retained some of his humanity and did it all for merely the thrill.
Also in Lies My Parents Told Me Spike reveals since he has gotten a soul he has a mentality of 'that was then, this is now'. He knows he killed all those people but he says 'I was an evil vampire, that's what vampires do' and now he can make a difference.
Angel on the other hand was too tortured by everything he had done to ever be able to view it in the same way
 
P
Parsel Deletriu
[No message]
Isn't Spike supposedly one of the most human vampires in the world or something? Despite being souless, he cared about his mother, fell in love with Druscilla and Buffy, like Joyce and took care of Dawn.

Maybe it was easier for him because he was closer to being human than what Angelus was.
 
B
Blondie Bear
That's what I said!
It could also be the way that Angel and Spike look at being turned evil.

In the episode in which the rogue slayer cuts of Spike's hands, Spike is shaken because he feels like even though he wasn't the one who killed her family, there were a lot of grieving young girls out there whom he had hurt in that way. He sympathized with the rogue slayer and felt sorry for her because now she would have to carry that same burden. Angel seemed appalled. He excused the slayer's killings because she was, in his words, "an innocent victim." Spike answered quietly, "so were we, once." I paraphrased, so my quotes may be a little off, but I think you get the idea.

Spike carries a lot of guilt for his actions. He sees being turned evil as a tragedy. Even though he was turned evil by being vamped, he sees himself as being no different from an ensouled human who is turned evil by circumstance. The soul may be easier for Spike to bear because he retained enough of his humanity that he never really felt all that far distant from it. William carried into vampire life his capacity for love, his taste for poetry, and his need to feel accepted. Even though he changed his name to Spike (a name that came from his response to criticism of his poetry), he was still that sensitive William fellow. In many ways, "Spike" was how he covered for that. Similarly, when Spike was souled, he was still Spike. That being the case, I think Spike thinks of his past as that of an evil person.

Angel also carries a lot of guilt for his actions. He sees being turned evil as an abomination. Because he was turned evil by being vamped, he sees himself as somehow being worse than or more evil than an ensouled human who is turned evil by circumstance. The soul may be harder for Angel to bear because he didn't retain enough of his humanity to ever feel close to it again. He always made huge distinctions between Liam and Angelus and between Angelus and Angel. To him, they were like three different people. It's like an unholy trinity. They're three in one. Angelus is the distilled essence of everything that is evil. Angel is the distilled essence of everything that is good. Liam was everything that was human. I think Angel thinks of his past as Angelus as being that of the embodiment of pure evil.

So, basically... what DoI said, but more long-winded-like.
 
S
Spirit_Of_Fred
love that comparison/analysis. very eloquent, and i didnt even remember that dana thing! :P
definition of insane
definition of insane
It only looks long winded because I'm so shorted winded... ;)
It's interesting as Spike gaining a soul and the person he is afterwards was essentially a deconstruction of Angel's situation, which I'm sure is what made their partnership in the latter's series so irresistable to Whedon and the other writers. (Whedon even calls their battle in 'Destiny' the highlight of the fifth season for him). Surely if Angel had continued, the similarities and differences between them as 'vampire as a soul' would have been explored further - and may yet still be!
 
Both men began to reconcile themselves with their souls and realize that there was hope for their eventual redemption as soon as someone showed them some encouragement. With Angel, it wasn't until he met Whistler (and ultimately Buffy) and was told that having a soul was an admirable thing. Darla saw Angel's soul as something bad and told him so. After that, he was just another monster to whoever he met.

Spike was luckier. The first person tom find out that he had a soul, as well as the person that he got the soul for, encouraged him and said that she believed in him. Almost immediately afterward, he was captured and tortured by the First Evil, and it was only the conviction that Buffy believed in him that sustained Spike.

In a way, you might say that what reconciled both vampires to their souls was the same thing: Buffy Summers. It just took Angel a lot longer to meet her after he got his.
 
Tranquillity
Tranquillity
completely agree.
wait wait wait, spike actually knew he was getting a soul? because it seemed to me he was just trying to find a way to "Be the man buffy wanted"... but i always thought (and my brother agrees) that he was genuinely shocked when he received a soul, that he didn't exactly know that was going to happen.
 
S
Spike Angelus
[No message]
white avenger
white avenger
According to Joss, the soul was the prize all along, the "get what she deserves" was just smoke and mirrors, so, yes, Spike knew all along.
LittleMissLikesToFight said:
wait wait wait, spike actually knew he was getting a soul? because it seemed to me he was just trying to find a way to "Be the man buffy wanted"... but i always thought (and my brother agrees) that he was genuinely shocked when he received a soul, that he didn't exactly know that was going to happen.
Click to expand...

I agree that it looks like he was in shock, but, I think he knew it was going to happen, it was just painful.
 
Exactly what Blondie Bear said. I think we were made to think that so we'd worry. I mean initially I thought that Spike was going to try and get the chip out of his head. Revenge and payback and all that jazz being pretty much Spike's thing. But then the trials seemed more of the 'are you worthy' type so I started to get confused and wonder....and then when he got the soul it shocked me yes but also made me go 'aaaaah'. haha.

And yeah, Spike's shock I think was just the pain of it. I think he may have believed the expereince would be floaty with the glowing eyes and such (as this is all Angel ever got when he was ensouled) and then when it seemed to cause him the pain of like ten lions tearing away at him...well, yeah, he was a little surprised. haha
 
Thanks to you all for explaining. I didn't know that about what Joss had said (was it in the commentary? Im just watching all commentaries now an i only finished season 4).
 
The thing about Spike seeking his soul (didja see what I did there with the alliteration?) was in an interview in the special features on the S6 (I think) discs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom