Vampires and the Soul

[LadyLavinia]

As much as I have been a fan of "BUFFY" and "ANGEL", I have one major problem with both shows. I have a problem with Joss Whedon's portrayal of vampires and the idea that they are "soulless". I think it's a load of crock.

My viewpoint of an individual with a soul is someone who possesses any array of emotions and awareness of individuality. I see this in all of the characters in both shows - humans, vampires, demons and other supernatural entities. The only time I can recall any character or characters displaying this lack of emotions and individuality was in the episode, "Forever", when Dawn used a resurrection spell given to her by Willow to bring back Joyce. What nearly came back was Joyce's animated body. An animated body that seemed to be nothing more than a zombie. To me, a zombie is an example of a soulless being . . . not a vampire.

 

[racheltng]

There have always been a lot of problems with the whole soul thing in the Buffyverse. The writers painted themselves into a corner when they established that vampires could feel no remorse. It makes it hard to create characters with which the audience can connect. Perfect example is Spike. Before he gets his soul back, he seems to feel a wide range of human emotions. Why is that? The only explanation we've gotten from TPTB is that Spike is just different. Whatever.

 

[Goby]

There are plenty of inconsistencies. The one I never got was why Rack needed cash, when he has all those amazing magical spells. Like he couldn't conjure up a pile of $100 bills or put a spell on a bank manager to get him a bag of cash, or put a spell on someone to rob a bank?

But the bottom line is I don't care. It's such a great show that it doesn't matter to me that some things don't make sense. But it's fun to talk about. 🙂

 

[wickedwill]

I've never liked the definition 'vampire with a soul' either. I tried in vain to find my own explanation. I see the lack of remorse more as the absence of empathy.
But then you always have the exception called Spike..

 

[Wilder Midnight]

I think the way it's conceptualized in various folk lores and myths being "soulless" doesn't mean nothing is there, even when described as such. Rather vampires (and demons and the undead and so on) possess a sort of "antisoul". To them hate feels like love, good feels like bad and so on. Soulless/soulful.

It's supposed to be the opposite of life.

When vampires do things like show affection or help people they're actually doing something that's very, very dirty (to them anyway).

 

[slayerpower]

In the Buffyverse, a soul is a conscience. Vampires can show a full range of emotions, but still lack a conscience.

 

[zobothehobo]

I think the soul is a personal thing. Everyone's soul is different and therefore it means different things to each vampire.

 

[BuffyThoughts]

Did Rack Need Cash?

There are plenty of inconsistencies. The one I never got was why Rack needed cash, when he has all those amazing magical spells. Like he couldn't conjure up a pile of $100 bills or put a spell on a bank manager to get him a bag of cash, or put a spell on someone to rob a bank?

But the bottom line is I don't care. It's such a great show that it doesn't matter to me that some things don't make sense. But it's fun to talk about. 🙂

First of all, did he need cash? I seem to remember Warren offering him, no dice. I don't remember Willow offering him cash. She paid for what he did for/to him in another way.

But if he did need cash, well, he's a metaphor for a drug dealer.

 

[white avenger]

I think that, once the decision was made that Angel was going to be a vampire, Joss and his staff were trying to come up with something that he could have in order to make him unique from all of the other vampires. The soul was just an easy explanation.

 

[Summerlilly]

I think vampires don't have souls because they're demons instead...apparently demons that are able to feel emotion. As said before they don't have a conscious and we need to be able to make Angel and Spike exceptions to the rule by giving them back their souls.

Sure, there's all kinds of inconsistancies in the writing but frankly it doesn't matter to me! 😉

 

[LadyLavinia]

In the Buffyverse, a soul is a conscience. Vampires can show a full range of emotions, but still lack a conscience.

The average human being likes to pretend that he or she has a conscience. But I've discovered that most human beings are very good at ignoring their conscience or failing to develop one. So the idea that humans have a conscience and vampires don't, does not impress me.

 

[wickedwill]

To me 'conscience' sounds vague like 'soul'. What do you mean by conscience? Remorse? Feelings? morality?
Vampires seem to feel emotions, they also acknowledge other people's emotions, but they are not really able to feel them, consequently they don't care.
I think empathy can make the difference between a 'good' person and a 'bad' person, and in the buffyverse could also trace the line between evil and human. Like dark willow, for example, she didn't care (or maybe she wasn't able to do so) what her best friends feel.
I don't know..

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I have a problem with Joss Whedon's portrayal of vampires and the idea that they are "soulless". I think it's a load of crock.

Right on.. I concur. You cannot 'live' even if you are the undead, sans soul. The soul is what animates us (great, and now I am singing Rush!) so I always had a problem with that soulless thing.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Vampires seem to feel emotions, they also acknowledge other people's emotions, but they are not really able to feel them, consequently they don't care.
I think empathy can make the difference between a 'good' person and a 'bad' person, and in the buffyverse could also trace the line between evil and human. Like dark willow, for example, she didn't care (or maybe she wasn't able to do so) what her best friends feel.

Yup, that's basically how I've always seen it, too - a "soul" in the Buffyverse is what gives you the capability for empathy (which is exactly what the bolded part of your quote describes the lack of), so "soulless" entities are, in clinical terms, suffering from psychopathic/antisocial PDO or an equivalent.

Which, of course, raises the question if the Buffyverse would consider an antisocial/psychopathic human to be "soulless". Wasn't there an ep of AtS with a soulless kid? I'm fuzzy on the early seasons of that.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

IM, do you think that some of the Buffy views in relation to the soul is because of Joss' Humanist viewpoint? That is how/what I always thought and it made more sense in terms of separating his view of the soul versus other mythologies of the soul.

 

[InsaneMystic]

^ You may well be on to something there... if, indeed, the Buffyverse "soul" is just an "empathy organ", you conveniently manage to avoid any religious entanglements in its definition, so it'd nicely fit in with Joss' humanism. 🙂

Still, I'm not sure if it's been such a good idea for them to go with a word that is so strongly charged with religious connotations.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Still, I'm not sure if it's been such a good idea for them to go with a word that is so strongly charged with religious connotations.

But is it not a fairly common word used with that genre? How often is that word through around in B-rate horror flicks, etc? I think it was more about word recognition with a genre element than any religious connotations. The best way to imply someone was amoral? oh, they are soulless.

 

[Kana]

I meant to post something on this last night at work but then, you know, work happened.

The problem with the soul is indeed how it is portrayed.

In the original premise the concept is that vampires are inhuman demons. This is supposed to be a metaphor for the idea that they are problems to be solved rather than people. Under this theory the soul is the spirit, the very personhood of the preceeding human. When that goes, all that is left is the demon.

Now the other idea is that the soul is the conscience. This means that the spirit and personhood remain but the moral aspect of their personality is removed.

The best way I could represent the concept of the soul/no soul divide is that vampires simply have a different psychological disposition. To argue the moral superiority of humans is problematic, but to ignore the difference between vampire and human behaviour is to ignore the evidence.

This is why I don't judge vampires in the same way I do humans. When they are turned they clearly take on the mindset of a predetor.

 

[StarSlayer]

I think the soul concept in the Buffyverse is such a tricky area because there can be many interpretations. For me, the soul represents a conscience in that you truly feel guilty and remorse over the wrongs you've committed. At the same time, when it comes to vampires, I see the soul as the tool for controlling the demon. A conscience helps you choose between right and wrong and as such, the soul helps vampires control the real evil, which is the demon.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I think the soul concept in the Buffyverse is such a tricky area because there can be many interpretations. For me, the soul represents a conscience in that you truly feel guilty and remorse over the wrongs you've committed. At the same time, when it comes to vampires, I see the soul as the tool for controlling the demon. A conscience helps you choose between right and wrong and as such, the soul helps vampires control the real evil, which is the demon.

Then that would mean that most human beings are "soulless" or like to pretend to possess one.