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Warren shouldn't be hated as much as he is

thetopher

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Sineya
To answer the question Warren is a cartoon, a distorted reflection in a funhouse mirror that reveals layers of misogyny. And there's not a lot to like about misogynists; women don't like them (logically) and most men don't like them either. The criminals who suffer worst in prison are those who prey on women and children; other reprehensible human beings look down on them and target them for fun.

Add to that that Warren- whilst having probably one of the worst aspects any villainous character could have (save for an actual Pedophile) doesn't really have any good points. Is he loyal to his friends? Nope. Brave? Nope. Keep his word? Not really. Is he at least humorous or charming to watch? Not particularly.
He isn't even a smart or creative planner. His big bad plan is 'get power-balls, get rich' as well as other, worse things along the way such as getting away with attempted rape and murder.

Basically he's not even a cool or competent bad guy, there's no 'grudging admiration' factor, no balance; in the end just a dimwit with a gun; another action far too real for many to find sympathetic. A viewer can't distance themselves from the act and go 'wow, she shot that guy with a bow! Weird.' Or 'He has a spike is his arm and a disc drive in his chest. Lame'.
For a cartoonish villain his actions are too real for people to sympathize with.

Other bad guys show moments of genuine vulnerability, or an interesting goal or human motivation for being as screwed up as they are, or some cosmic insight, a brilliant plan for the viewer to admire or puzzle over. Maybe they're mysterious or cool looking. Maybe their just good in a fight and a genuine threat to the good guys.

Warren has none of these things and that's why he's hated. Not just for what he is but for what he lacks.


I will say that the one aspect to his character that I've read about and is interesting to discuss is some of his actions/attitudes being a reflection of Willow's in S6.

What advantages do women have over men in society?

For UK:
Live longer, die less in the workplace, less likely to become homeless, less likely to suffer from a mental illness or a debilitating nerve disease, get lighter sentences for the same crime, have a much easier time in any family court situation where they're unlikely to lose their children in a divorce (fathers are not seen the same way as mothers, much of society views them as redundant except in regards to providing money), more likely to be let off for minor criminal violation, much more likely to have their domestic abuse claim or sexual harassment claim taken seriously, men and boys are also being left well behind by the education system and nobody seems to care, and of course women are much less likely to die (or be maimed/disabled) in wars (and no, not all men are massively aggressive murder machines and enjoy fighting for their goddam life, lol).
Basically men are more expendable as a resource, always have been.

But I'm not going to claim that just because society is unfair to my gender in some ways that I live in some kind of...Matriarchy; where women weaponize their tears to manipulate and men are almost constant victims. That's crazy talk.

What's that famous Atwood line 'Men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will murder them'

And what happens; most men actually do get laughed by women, but most women do not get murdered. And then men are murdered by men (at a much higher rate than women) probably because of all the butt-hurt men smarting from being laughed at.

And while that last part was a joke the point remains that men suffer more from male deprivation than women do.
I do get tired of this 'pitting the sexes against each other' narrative which leads to, oh I'll take a recent example from the UK, after a woman was brutally murdered by a serving police officer there was a half-humorous suggestion for there to be a curfew for all men, forbidding them to be on the streets past a certain time- actually I guess that's what a curfew is....
But don't worry, only 1 of the 4 UK governing bodies took this idea seriously.
 

DeadlyDuo

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@garfan
This is a far more reasonable proposition than the OPs

The original post wasn't saying that Warren shouldn't be disliked for the things he's done, it was questioning why he gets so much hate for doing the same things that the scoobies and Faith had done and yet they don't get the same level of hate.

@thetopher has probably hit the nail on the head with Warren not being given the level of redeemable features that the other characters are given to offset their bad actions.

I do get tired of this 'pitting the sexes against each other' narrative which leads to, oh I'll take a recent example from the UK, after a woman was brutally murdered by a serving police officer there was a half-humorous suggestion for there to be a curfew for all men, forbidding them to be on the streets past a certain time- actually I guess that's what a curfew is....
But don't worry, only 1 of the 4 UK governing bodies took this idea seriously.

That was a completely ridiculous idea, it was moronic. It was stupidity in its most transparent form.

It was also pointed out that such a pathetic notion actually puts MORE women in danger because the men who have no problem hurting women don't care about rules, therefore they'd just ignore the curfew whilst the men who care about women and would protect them are locked away inside.

Sometimes morons are so keen to virtue signal their "support" for the hysterical woke whiners that all they do is end up exposing their own stupidity.
 
thetopher
thetopher
Still, it only would've happened in Wales...;)

afanofbuffy

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It's a pretty controversial opinion, and I'm not saying that people shouldn't dislike Warren, but what has he actually done that the scoobies or Faith haven't?

He attempted to rape Katrina- That's bad, however Spike attempted to rape Buffy, Faith attempted to rape Xander as she was strangling him, Hyena Xander attempted "felony sexual assault" against Buffy, Faith DID rape Riley and by extension Buffy. Angel/Angelus has raped in the past and their is debate over whether Spike raped in the past.

He mind controlled Katrina- Xander did the love spell in Season 2 which made the entre female population of Sunnydale fall in love with him, Willow even offered him her virginity. Willow also messed with her friends minds in Tabula Rasa.

He has a "misogynistic" view of women- How is it any different to Faith's "use them then lose them" view of men? She took Xander's virginity then tossed him aside even though he thought they had a connection. He was nothing but a toy to her and she threw him away when she got what se wanted.

He killed Tara- Angel/Angelus killed Jenny, Spike attempted to kill Buffy on several occasions, and Willow attempted to destroy the entire world.

He came up with schemes that got people hurt or killed- Anya was a vengeance demon who took pleasure in making men suffer and her actions have led to death. As a human she still looked upon those days fondly. After Xander jilted her on their wedding day, she went back to being a vengeance demon and released those spider demons which killed those guys. She felt bad and wanted it taken back which ended up with Halfrek being killed.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't dislike Warren because of his actions, however he seems to get an awful lot of hate for stuff that the scoobies and Faith have done too. Why such a double standard? Why is he often considered a hated character yet Faith, Willow and Anya aren't despite their actions?

Thoughts?
First let me tell you that your thread is utterly awesome. I don't hate Warren at all. He is a great antagonist and character and the post is as I have written awesome. To write more Warren has some sort of presence.
 

TriBel

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there was a half-humorous suggestion for there to be a curfew for all men, forbidding them to be on the streets past a certain time
thetopher Still, it only would've happened in Wales...;)

It harks back to this. Believe me, it wasn't humorous at the time. Have you any idea what it felt like to think you could be next...or to wonder whether the murderer was your father or your brother.

Sometimes morons are so keen to virtue signal their "support" for the hysterical woke whiners that all they do is end up exposing their own stupidity.

Really...Really? You think something that evokes the memory of the murder of 13 women and the attempted murder of 7 more is "woke" and stupid? Really!

Marches in Leeds in 1977
The first Reclaim the Night protests took place in Leeds on 12 November 1977.[6][7] The marches were in part a response to the "Yorkshire Ripper" murders, and the police response which instructed women to stay out of public spaces after dark.[6] A dozen other marches took place that same night in other cities, encouraged by the efforts of women in Leeds.[7] These cities included: York, Bristol, Brighton, New-castle, Bradford, Manchester, Lancaster and London.[2] In Leeds, the marches started in two locations: one in Chapeltown and one on Woodhouse Moor.[2][7] The Chapeltown march consisted of approximately 30 women; the Woodhouse march of 85. The marches converged on City Square.[2] Women carried signs such as "No Curfew on Women - Curfew on Men."[8]
 

DeadlyDuo

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thetopher Still, it only would've happened in Wales...;)

It harks back to this. Believe me, it wasn't humorous at the time. Have you any idea what it felt like to think you could be next...or to wonder whether the murderer was your father or your brother.

If you thought the murderer was your father or brother, then that shows a complete lack of trust in your family members which suggests there are bigger issues at play in that scenario.

Really...Really? You think something that evokes the memory of the murder of 13 women and the attempted murder of 7 more is "woke" and stupid? Really!

Yes. Things have moved on since the 1970s. The whole concept that an entire gender should be put on curfew because of the actions of one individual is stupid and moronic. If someone said to you that an entire race( for example, black people) should be put on curfew because a few black individuals (so not all black people) commit over 50% of crime in America, and therefore by putting an entire race under curfew, crime will go down, you'd be perfectly okay with that? No you wouldn't.

You're up in arms that women were put under curfew because of their gender, yet you seem perfectly fine with men being put under curfew because of their gender. Why the hypocrisy?

Women carried signs such as "No Curfew on Women - Curfew on Men."[8]

Hypocrisy in action right there.
 
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afanofbuffy

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This discussion is turning into something else. Would it be possible to go back to the original discussion: Warren Mears.
 

thrasherpix

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Don't forget mothers and sisters. In the US there are kids killed by abuse every day. Most are by mothers.

Going with an example of lesser crime sentences, Tammy Homolka was killed by her older sister. Granted, this was to help her own personal Spike bad boy rape her (he "wanted a virgin") but she died, and helped in other murders. She denies her own agency (if only people could promote actual agency in real life than in movies) and got out of prison (read that she moved out of the country because she was so hated in her own country, and probably by her own family) while her partner, a male, remains in a maximum security prison.


By the way, I went to more than one self-defense course specifically for women (men should learn such things as well, especially if they're on the small side), and most were run by men who felt truly concerned. I only went to one run by feminists because it was free but it was meant to terrify than empower, including how 9 out of 10 men will be someone we love and trust (I forget what they call it when stats are deprived of their context to lie) and did not apply to most of us. I know I wasn't the only one because I made a sarcastic statement regarding how helpful this all was (as opposed to what they promised) and many of the other women there showed audible appreciation for my snark.

Wish I'd known about the curfew so I could've added something like "if our fathers and brothers are out to kill or rape us, then shouldn't we bar them from home?" :p


Funny story, btw (at least to me)...my dad thought I was going to kill him. I do fully believe that he made a sincere attempt to kill my mom by sabotaging the car my mom took from him in the divorce (and Mom did so because he loved it, she said so), which almost claimed my life as well. I heard different versions of what happened after and asked him about it (and told him my experience being in the car when the brakes failed on the highway, though I was just sharing), but he refused to speak on it until I gave up.

I then tried to think of some way we could bond (a sincere effort on my part, though he didn't actually deserve it), but the only thing we had in common (besides our warped sense of humor) is that he liked target shooting, so I asked if he wanted to go shooting. Ah, his eyes, and his kicking me and my friend out. It took me awhile (with my friend pointing it out) before I realized he thought I was planning my not so subtle deadly revenge. :D


I'll have to give my dad credit for not blowing Mom away. Mom came out with the shotgun to use on Dad but was too drunk or ignorant to switch the safety off. He got it from her and rather than beating her with it or using it (his adrenaline was probably through the roof) he immediately took it from our home (later Mom's home). I still don't know where he put it or who he gave it to.

By no means am I saying he was a saint, just messed up who could take the high road at times.

And he was screwed by divorce court, but then so was I, being made to live with my abusive mother rather than allowed to live with Granny who was willing to take me (but then Mom wouldn't be able to get her child support to buy her booze and cigarettes with no government oversight).
 

afanofbuffy

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If you thought the murderer was your father or brother, then that shows a complete lack of trust in your family members which suggests there are bigger issues at play in that scenario.



Yes. Things have moved on since the 1970s. The whole concept that an entire gender should be put on curfew because of the actions of one individual is stupid and moronic. If someone said to you that an entire race( for example, black people) should be put on curfew because a few black individuals (so not all black people) commit over 50% of crime in America, and therefore by putting an entire race under curfew, crime will go down, you'd be perfectly okay with that? No you wouldn't.

You're up in arms that women were put under curfew because of their gender, yet you seem perfectly fine with men being put under curfew because of their gender. Why the hypocrisy?



Hypocrisy in action right there.

Please can't you just go back to your original discussion and talk about it?because this thread is getting confusing.
 

Cyberdemon

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He mind controlled Katrina- Xander did the love spell in Season 2 which made the entre female population of Sunnydale fall in love with him
Xander did it out of love and heart break. Warren wanted a sex slave.
He has a "misogynistic" view of women- How is it any different to Faith's "use them then lose them" view of men?
feminism.
He killed Tara- Angel/Angelus killed Jenny, Spike attempted to kill Buffy on several occasions, and Willow attempted to destroy the entire world.
Angel had no soul lol. Warren had no real motive to do the things he did, it was out of selfishness. Willow was grieving so it made it a little more understandable
 

DeadlyDuo

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Fine! I'm happy we're returning to the original topic! Based on this post you seem to love Warren. Why?

Your tone makes you sound a little snippy. Was that intentional or am I just reading it wrong?

To answer your question, I don't love Warren, I just don't hate him to the extent that other people do. I think the trio were mildly amusing (pre-dead things) but I must admit I do enjoy First!Warren and his comments such as "Don't think about Babe".

Xander did it out of love and heart break.

Xander wanted Cordelia to fall mindlessly in love with him so he could cruelly dump her. Given how irrational the love spell made it's victims, it's quite possible Cordelia may have attempted suicide after Xander's rejection. What Warren did as bad, but Xander's spell could've had dire consequences.

Dawn tried to kill herself when she thought she couldn't compete with the other scooby women for RJ's affections, what would Cordelia do after she is rejected by what she percieves to be the love of her life due to the love spell?

feminism.

Otherwise known as hypocrisy.

Willow was grieving so it made it a little more understandable

Does it though? Millions of people who never even knew Tara would die as a result of Willow's actions. Children would die. Puppies and kittens would die as a result of Willow destroying the world and none of them had anything to do with Tara's death.
 

afanofbuffy

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Your tone makes you sound a little snippy. Was that intentional or am I just reading it wrong?

To answer your question, I don't love Warren, I just don't hate him to the extent that other people do. I think the trio were mildly amusing (pre-dead things) but I must admit I do enjoy First!Warren and his comments such as "Don't think about Babe".



Xander wanted Cordelia to fall mindlessly in love with him so he could cruelly dump her. Given how irrational the love spell made it's victims, it's quite possible Cordelia may have attempted suicide after Xander's rejection. What Warren did as bad, but Xander's spell could've had dire consequences.

Dawn tried to kill herself when she thought she couldn't compete with the other scooby women for RJ's affections, what would Cordelia do after she is rejected by what she percieves to be the love of her life due to the love spell?



Otherwise known as hypocrisy.



Does it though? Millions of people who never even knew Tara would die as a result of Willow's actions. Children would die. Puppies and kittens would die as a result of Willow destroying the world and none of them had anything to do with Tara's death.

Not my intention. I'm just overly excited to discuss about Warren. He is cool as The First but the real Warren is better in my opinion. You sure you don't love Warren? Not even a bit? 😉

The dude is charming after all.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Not my intention. I'm just overly excited to discuss about Warren. He is cool as The First but the real Warren is better in my opinion. You sure you don't love Warren? Not even a bit? 😉

I think they definitely villainised him more for Season 6 than he was originally presented as in IWMTLY. I'm basing this more over how Katrina was characterised. She's not the type of person that would put up with a "misogynist" and anything that Warren later gets accused of. We know they're staying at his mom's house which means either Katrina has already met his mom or she's meeting her for the first time. That's a big step in any relationship and normally something that happens after a significant period of time, it's a sign that the relationship is "serious" and not a short term thing.

I also think Warren knew he was probably going to die when Willow had him tied to the tree. Just the way he said "no" when Willow said "thought you wanted to talk" sounded like he was resigning himself to his fate.

Why do you like Warren so much?
 

afanofbuffy

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I agree with your points about the season 5 and 6.

Is it obvious that I "love Warren so much"?
I think they definitely villainised him more for Season 6 than he was originally presented as in IWMTLY. I'm basing this more over how Katrina was characterised. She's not the type of person that would put up with a "misogynist" and anything that Warren later gets accused of. We know they're staying at his mom's house which means either Katrina has already met his mom or she's meeting her for the first time. That's a big step in any relationship and normally something that happens after a significant period of time, it's a sign that the relationship is "serious" and not a short term thing.

I also think Warren knew he was probably going to die when Willow had him tied to the tree. Just the way he said "no" when Willow said "thought you wanted to talk" sounded like he was resigning himself to his fate.

Why do you like Warren so much?




The reason is because is charming. He has something that other villains don't have. To tell you sincerely I have no idea myself. Maybe it's his acting, his characterization, his attitude. I simply love his so much and maybe I don't know why. There may be something in his character that intrigues me. I just know that I love his character a lot.

I think they definitely villainised him more for Season 6 than he was originally presented as in IWMTLY. I'm basing this more over how Katrina was characterised. She's not the type of person that would put up with a "misogynist" and anything that Warren later gets accused of. We know they're staying at his mom's house which means either Katrina has already met his mom or she's meeting her for the first time. That's a big step in any relationship and normally something that happens after a significant period of time, it's a sign that the relationship is "serious" and not a short term thing.

I also think Warren knew he was probably going to die when Willow had him tied to the tree. Just the way he said "no" when Willow said "thought you wanted to talk" sounded like he was resigning himself to his fate.

Why do you like Warren so much?
I agree with you. Warren was a good guy in S5. I have never noticed that he had resigned himself to his fate. Very good observation.
 
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DeadlyDuo

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The reason is because is charming. He has something that other villains don't have. To tell you sincerely I have no idea myself. Maybe it's his acting, his characterization, his attitude. I simply love his so much and maybe I don't know why. There may be something in his character that intrigues me. I just know that I love his character a lot.

I can understand that. Sometimes you just feel drawn to a character even though you don't know why specifically. I think Adam Busch did a great job as Warren.
 

afanofbuffy

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I can understand that. Sometimes you just feel drawn to a character even though you don't know why specifically. I think Adam Busch did a great job as Warren.

Adam Busch did a great job as you say. You are correct. Sometimes we feel drawn to a character for an unknown reason.
 
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