But this is just completely wrong, to put it bluntly. At the end of the Angel series, he signs away the Shanshu Prophecy, his one shot to become human again and have a very tangible reward for fighting his good fight. That was incredibly selfless.
You're right... he signs away the shanshu at the end and one could argue it was so that he could jab at the powers that be... but one could argue it was selfless. I'm going to argue, like everything, it was both. It was both so he could jab at the powers that be, by literally fighting them, and also so he could keep fighting the good fight.
Angel's journey has a lot to do with redemption, yes. However, on several occasions he talks about how he never had a choice in what Angelus did, and you can't really hold him truly responsible then.
That's my point. He talks about how he never had a choice in what Angelus did and you can't hold him truly responsible... Even just in changing his name while he had a soul, I think he was trying to take responsibility for his soulless actions off of himself. And it works. I mean people (both in the show and out) are very quick to say "Angel had no control over Angelus!" but those same people are also very iffy on Spike. "Well... Spike knew what he was doing..." Had Spike changed his name, I suspect this would be different. Because he could say "that other named guy who was actually me did stuff but I had no control over him! Don't blame me! I'm not the bad guy! That other guy who is me but I'm going to put a fancy other name on him... HE'S the bad guy! No really! I mean it! I'm a WHOLE new man now!" Am I the only one who thinks that sounds like a really childish and dick move?
However, that doesn't take anything away from his story or his mission. Like I said before, those acts were still committed in his body, and he still remembers them
.
He remembers those actions committed in his body but takes no responsibility for them. That is my point.
That would take a toll on anyone, and the fact that he can't just justify it away (as Spike seems to do, at least at the beginning of S5)
Not to make this thread about Spike, because it's not... but how does Spike justify away anything at the beginning of season 5... I'm confused.
says a lot about him and about the quality of man he is. You can't get mad at Angel for Angelus not wanting to get a soul. That's just kind of silly, really.
I'm not mad at Angel for Angelus not wanting a soul, just when I think about the show and a 'good man' who is a vampire, I put wanting a soul and choosing to get it at kind of a high thing. A soulless creature SEEKING OUT a soul is a BIG DEAL. And to me, it's very important when talking about this issue in Buffy and Angel. And because there is a vampire in canon who sought out his soul, it does detract points from Angel that he didn't. The worst though is when he gets all high and mighty about his soul acting like it makes him so special, important, and
good forgetting where and how he got it.
If all Angel was in it for was a reward, as you said, then he never would have given up Buffy when he had her in "Graduation Day" and again when he had everything he wanted in "I Will Remember You".
No... because Angel wasn't
just in it for the award. He was in it for the award and the promise and thought that he wouldn't ever be held accountable for his actions while soulless. "Making up for it" was always important to him.
It should be noted I find the notion of "making up for" a mistake to be a really childish, ridiculous, and pointless one. I do feel it makes you less morally good to be stuck on "making up for" a mistake you make. I think it makes you a much better person to make the mistake, learn from it, and learn that there are no real mistakes as long as you learn lessons. If you're "making up for" your mistakes, you've not really had a chance to grow. And is doing better simply because the fact you made mistakes and you want to "make up for" them really doing better? I mean that vs doing better because you've learned from your mistakes and you want to grow and be better than them... To me, the second option is actually being a better person. The first option is never moving past your mistakes and being stuck in the past. Actively seeking redemption is the best way to never be redeemed in my eyes..
Those instances, and when he gives away the Shanshu, prove beyond any doubt that he is a hero, and that he isn't in it for himself.
The question is not "is Angel a hero," to which I would respond "yes, but..." The question is "Was Angel a good man?" Completely different animals here. You can be a hero but a bad man.
He says numerous times throughout both shows that the things Angelus did can never be atoned for, so why would you think that's what he's after, when he so explicitly says he's not?
Because actions speak louder than words. Saying "the things this other guy who is really me but I don't want to take responsibility for my actions did can never be atoned for" in an angsty broody tone is one thing. Saying you have to "make up for" those same actions committed by you but you're gong to pretend it's someone else because you don't want to take responsibility for your actions is a completely contradictory statement.
He never says he wants to wipe the slate clean.
Not outright... but I ask... what is the point of "making up for" and pretending Angelus isn't Angel if that's not true?
The entire message of the Angel series is fighting the good fight, even though it can't ever be won, because it's worth fighting.
True... But I think the only episode Angel ever really gets this as a character is the last one. Am I supposed to consider him a good man because he understands in the very last episode?
To be honest I don't see your point at all. Not even a little bit. I don't think you get Angel, if that's how your interpreting him.
And that's fair. I don't pretend to understand how Angel thinks and feels. I don't. I don't get him at all. He is an enigma to me. However, I don't like him. I don't get him, and I don't like him.
When does Angel ever say that he wants to be a good man so that he won't be held accountable for his actions? He never makes excuses for what he did. He wants to try to make up for what he did.
He does make excuses by picking another name and pinning it all on this "Angelus" guy who's not the same as this "Angel" guy. And making up for those actions IS saying you don't want to be held accountable for them.
He knows that he never can, but he feels as if he should. He feels as if it's the right thing to do.
But it's not. Making up for some mistake you made isn't the right thing to do... The right thing to do is man up, own up, learns something, and apply what you learned to you daily life. This is being moral because you don't want to face the consequences.... It's pre-conventional morality. Angel "making up for" his mistakes he's not actually taking responsibility for is no different from a kid trying to butter up his parent after he made her mad by doing something he blamed on his sister.
He also didn't do anything for a reward. He wouldn't have signed away his one chance at living a "normal" life if he did it all for a reward.
Hence I will repeat the award wasn't the only thing he was in it for.
It has never, ever been implied that he wants to "erase" what he has done. He wants to atone for what he has done.
How is atoning for what you've done and morally "erasing" what you've done any different? It's not. Also it has been implied he wants to "erase" what he's done in the simple fact he calls them "Angelus'" actions and not his own.
That's like if I do something mean to my friend and I make it up to her by making her cookies (not that I cook, ha) I'm not saying "pretend it never happened, don't ever bring it up again, it's all better now cause I did something nice". No. I feel as if I owe her something, I owe her an apology and I am showing my appreciation for her by doing something nice.
My point is that's a ridiculous notion. I believe in the five part apology theory... There are five parts to a complete and full apology. They are
1. Some form of recognition of guilt and/or responsibility. "I'm sorry," "I apologize," "I regret," "I feel bad," etc.
2. What happened. This completes the "I'm sorry for" apology that a lot of people count as 'complete.'
3. Why what happened happened. If you said something mean to your friend, this is "I'm sorry for saying what I said, I was mad and upset at something else and took that anger out on you."
4. Reason to believe it won't happen again. In this scenario this is "I'm sorry for saying what I said, I was mad and upset at something else and took that anger out on you. I'm working on learning to finding a healthier outlet for my anger so that I don't take my anger out on you anymore."
5. Some form of "it won't happen again." Usually this happens in part 4, but sometimes it doesn't s you have to add it. In this case, I'd say it was added in part 4 and we're ok.
That is what you owe your friend if you say something mean to her. Then she apologizes for the small little thing she said that set you off, you hug, and there you go. You do not need to bake her cookies. A friend that holds something against you until you "make it up to her" isn't actually your friend. We're human... We make mistakes. All you can ask, literally all you can ask of yourself and of others is that we understand and accept that EVERYONE makes mistakes, we accept responsibility for our own mistakes, and we learn something from the mistakes we make and the mistakes we see others make. That's it.
Yeah that's a weird analogy for Angel's situation, but maybe he feels as if he really screwed up the world, I mean he played a huge role in destroying part of it, he destroyed lives. He wants to save lives. He has an eternity to do so, so why not?
Saving people isn't my problem here. Saving lives is a good thing. But he should do it because he's learned and grown... not because he wants to "make up for" mistakes and because he feels he should.
His only other option is to hang out in a sewers eating rats.
Don't even get me started on the fact that this is what he did for 100 years after getting his soul back. Don't even get me started.
He did horrible and unforgivable things, they will never be forgotten. He makes it pretty clear that they shouldn't be.
Clear as in pinning them on someone else who is actually him but who he pretends is someone else and trying to "make up for them" so that he doesn't feel moral consequences? Yep. That's clear.
