Was Angel A Good Man?

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]


Your logic does not resemble our Earth logic. No offense, but you're not making any sense. Seriously. You can't feel responsible for doing something you had no control over because you didn't do it in the first place.

Maybe we just need to agree to disagree, because I think I'm making perfect sense. I still maintain that if I suddenly lost total control of my body, if something took it over, went out and murdered thousands of people and then got control back and remembered it all, I would feel awful about it, even though I didn't have a say in what happened. If I could remember the taste of someone else's blood in my mouth, of breaking someone's neck, that would feel terrible. It happened in Angel's body man, so of course he feels bad. Call me crazy, but that's pretty logical to me. It would take a pretty unique person to completely ignore that if it happened to them and just write it off.

Liam has chosen to become a vampire, I say he's very much responsible for what Angelus did. People actually still believed in vampires in early 18th century, he knew what was going on. Also, since vampires do have free will...eh.

Liam did not choose to be a vampire, that's just you interpreting something that was never even suggested. He was hammered and a hot girl wanted to make out with him. He went for it, his blood was drained, he fell to his knees and Darla thrust him into her breasts. In no way did he "choose" to be a vampire. He had no idea Darla even was a vampire.

As Spike says in S5, they were innocent victims.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

It's like being drunk, if you got off your face hammered to the point were you blank out and don't remember it and you killed someone you guys don't think you should feel bad for that?
It's similar enough to how vampire is portrayed in the show, your still the same person, but you are a different version of yourself, you weren't in control of yourself 100%, you do stuff you wouldn't do, but your gonna feel responsible for something if you still do it.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]

It's like being drunk, if you got off your face hammered to the point were you blank out and don't remember it and you killed someone you guys don't think you should feel bad for that? It's similar enough to how vampire is portrayed in the show, your still the same person, but you are a different version of yourself, you weren't in control of yourself 100%, you do stuff you wouldn't do, but your gonna feel responsible for something if you still do it.

Unless someone forcefully pours the booze into you, then no, it's not similar at all. It's more like a date rape drug, the victim is not responsible for anything he or she did because there's no culpability.
[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]

Maybe we just need to agree to disagree, because I think I'm making perfect sense. I still maintain that if I suddenly lost total control of my body, if something took it over, went out and murdered thousands of people and then got control back and remembered it all, I would feel awful about it, even though I didn't have a say in what happened. If I could remember the taste of someone else's blood in my mouth, of breaking someone's neck, that would feel terrible. It happened in Angel's body man, so of course he feels bad. Call me crazy, but that's pretty logical to me. It would take a pretty unique person to completely ignore that if it happened to them and just write it off.

In that case you still allow the monster to control you. As long as your actions are influenced by those of the monster that took your body, you're not truly free, you're not yourself, that something still rules you. Like it still rules Angel. Angel had a chance, he could become a human again and walk away, be free. He didn't do it because Angelus still pulls the strings.

It would take a pretty unique person to completely ignore that if it happened to them and just write it off.

No. It's called transgression and almost every human being is capable of it. Sadly for Angel, he's not a human being and he's unable to let go. He's like Sisyphus, he'll be rolling his boulder forever, or until someone merciful enough relieves him.

Personally, I count on Buffy.

Eh, now I'm kinda feeling sorry for that brooding worm. Just great.

 

[Icarium]

Um....I agree that the misdirect was a bad idea--quite frankly it insults the audience's intelligence. But that doesn't give us the right to take the writers' intention and nullify it, simply because they did so in a strange and nonsensical manner.

Sure it does, as long one believes in the death of the author concept. If tomorrow Joss changes his mind and says "Actually, Spike was tricked by the cave demon, would you change your opinion accordingly"?

And I can't help but mock Jane Espenson's contradictory phrasing: "Spike looked into his soul at that moment [the attempted rape], and saw the demon in him, and that's what made him want to go get a soul" - so Jane, you are saying that Spike looked into his soul and realized that he... didn't have a soul? 🙂

That's my point. He talks about how he never had a choice in what Angelus did and you can't hold him truly responsible... Even just in changing his name while he had a soul, I think he was trying to take responsibility for his soulless actions off of himself.

I don't think Angel changed his name. Watch BtVS S2 and you will see that Spike and Drusilla almost always call him Angel, not Angelus, both when he is soulless and when he has his soul. Angelus is just the Latin form of that name.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Unless someone forcefully pours the booze into you, then no, it's not similar at all. It's more like a date rape drug, the victim is not responsible for anything he or she did because there's no culpability.

But you said a few posts back Liam chose to become a Vampire, which he kinda did, same as Spike neither fought it.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]

But you said a few posts back Liam chose to become a Vampire, which he kinda did, same as Spike neither fought it.

Hello, EVIL!

 

[zobothehobo]

I'll do a more complete response to everything said to me when I am less lazy and more motivated but I did one to make something clear. I'm not saying that if you apologize, you're let off the hook for anything you do ever. I'm saying that apologizing and LEARNING from your mistakes then applying what you learn is a better way to achieve redemption than actively seeking it and trying to "make up for" what you've done.

I used to steal from the grocery store because it was easy. The security cameras were pointed in the wrong directions often, the other patrons of the store seemed to just not care if they saw someone put something in their bag, and the employees seemed to have a really tough time realizing that certain items would go missing LITERALLY every day. I stole so much stuff. When I was caught, my first instinct was to throw all the money I had in my wallet at them and say "I'M SORRY THIS IS WHAT I HAVE I'LL MAKE IT UP TO YOU I PROMISE!" And I did. And the people said they couldn't take the money, or have me work off the financial damages... But I felt better about myself having offered. Then I went to another grocery store and stole a diet coke the next day. I was prepared to not stop... Making up for what I did, or offering to, didn't make me morally good. It didn't make what I did morally ok, and it didn't make me a morally better person. I didn't become a better person until a few weeks later when I realized that stealing from those stores was never going to be ok. I could apologize and "make up for" it all I wanted... but stealing from those stores wasn't ok. I could justify it any which way... but it was not ok. I learned exactly how wrong stealing is. And in doing that, I became a better person. And while what I did, stealing from those stores, will never be ok... it's more ok because I learned from it. If the store had accepted my money and offer to pay off everything I'd stolen... that wouldn't have made this better. Nothing would have made it better like me learning how wrong stealing is. Like me not stealing not because I got caught or because of this and that...

It should also be said, I think our justice system should hold people accountable by holding them to the consequences of their actions. But I don't think someone becomes better and overcomes a mistake until they actually learn and move on. If you spend your whole life trying to "make up for" this or that, you're not overcoming anything. You're not becoming better... It's not a matter of apologizing... it's a matter of learning and doing.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Sure it does, as long one believes in the death of the author concept. If tomorrow Joss changes his mind and says "Actually, Spike was tricked by the cave demon, would you change your opinion accordingly"?

Yeah, I would. Or rather, if the author of that story line told me so, I would have to change my opinion accordingly. The author's word, to me, is no different from the written word: both are coming from the exact same source. If whoever wrote that episode flat out said, "Hey, guess what. Spike meant to get his chip out, not get his soul back," I'd be like, "Oh man. I really respected him for getting his soul by choice--what a lame revelation. But now I know this, and I see Spike differently."

And I can't help but mock Jane Espenson's contradictory phrasing: "Spike looked into his soul at that moment [the attempted rape], and saw the demon in him, and that's what made him want to go get a soul" - so Jane, you are saying that Spike looked into his soul and realized that he... didn't have a soul? 🙂

Lol yes, I noticed that too. I think she meant to say "Spike looked within himself at that moment--" In the 'verse the soul is a literal thing that you can feel and touch, but in our coloquial tradition "looking into the soul" just means being self reflective, so I can see how she misspoke.

I don't think Angel changed his name. Watch BtVS S2 and you will see that Spike and Drusilla almost always call him Angel, not Angelus, both when he is soulless and when he has his soul. Angelus is just the Latin form of that name.

Right, his name was probably Angel when Spike and Dru knew him, and then he changed it to Angelus after the fact--after he'd been ensouled--to create a distance between the two selves. Spike and Dru continue to call him Angel because they really don't care.

But I don't think someone becomes better and overcomes a mistake until they actually learn and move on. If you spend your whole life trying to "make up for" this or that, you're not overcoming anything. You're not becoming better... It's not a matter of apologizing... it's a matter of learning and doing.

Hear, hear!!

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'll do a more complete response to everything said to me when I am less lazy and more motivated but I did one to make something clear. I'm not saying that if you apologize, you're let off the hook for anything you do ever. I'm saying that apologizing and LEARNING from your mistakes then applying what you learn is a better way to achieve redemption than actively seeking it and trying to "make up for" what you've done.

I used to steal from the grocery store because it was easy. The security cameras were pointed in the wrong directions often, the other patrons of the store seemed to just not care if they saw someone put something in their bag, and the employees seemed to have a really tough time realizing that certain items would go missing LITERALLY every day. I stole so much stuff. When I was caught, my first instinct was to throw all the money I had in my wallet at them and say "I'M SORRY THIS IS WHAT I HAVE I'LL MAKE IT UP TO YOU I PROMISE!" And I did. And the people said they couldn't take the money, or have me work off the financial damages... But I felt better about myself having offered. Then I went to another grocery store and stole a diet coke the next day. I was prepared to not stop... Making up for what I did, or offering to, didn't make me morally good. It didn't make what I did morally ok, and it didn't make me a morally better person. I didn't become a better person until a few weeks later when I realized that stealing from those stores was never going to be ok. I could apologize and "make up for" it all I wanted... but stealing from those stores wasn't ok. I could justify it any which way... but it was not ok. I learned exactly how wrong stealing is. And in doing that, I became a better person. And while what I did, stealing from those stores, will never be ok... it's more ok because I learned from it. If the store had accepted my money and offer to pay off everything I'd stolen... that wouldn't have made this better. Nothing would have made it better like me learning how wrong stealing is. Like me not stealing not because I got caught or because of this and that...

It should also be said, I think our justice system should hold people accountable by holding them to the consequences of their actions. But I don't think someone becomes better and overcomes a mistake until they actually learn and move on. If you spend your whole life trying to "make up for" this or that, you're not overcoming anything. You're not becoming better... It's not a matter of apologizing... it's a matter of learning and doing.

Well I don't think it's a one or the other type situation, Angel didn't keep on killing people while he was fighting to redeem himself, by seeking redemption he is trying to right the wrongs he's doing and leaning from it.

In the type of apology your talking about you get to change and grow through the same growth without the concisenesses of what you did - which to me is just a way to make you feel better.
In your case the shop didn't look for the money back, so there was no repartitions?
And you say that paying the money back wouldn't have made a difference, well just say for example the shop operated a 'employee pays for missing funds' policy, I worked in a video store once and if there was money missing from your till you paid for it, so just say someone was paying for the stuff you were taking, they could have gotten that money back if you'd paid it back.
Fixing your past wrongs it's about making yourself feel better, it's about working to fix the things you did wrong, doing right by other people, while changing yourself. Thats the journey Angel was going through, but in his case it was murder so there isn't really a way to fix it, so he just kept working away at it.

 

[Robb Stark]

I'll do a more complete response to everything said to me when I am less lazy and more motivated but I did one to make something clear. I'm not saying that if you apologize, you're let off the hook for anything you do ever. I'm saying that apologizing and LEARNING from your mistakes then applying what you learn is a better way to achieve redemption than actively seeking it and trying to "make up for" what you've done.

I used to steal from the grocery store because it was easy. The security cameras were pointed in the wrong directions often, the other patrons of the store seemed to just not care if they saw someone put something in their bag, and the employees seemed to have a really tough time realizing that certain items would go missing LITERALLY every day. I stole so much stuff. When I was caught, my first instinct was to throw all the money I had in my wallet at them and say "I'M SORRY THIS IS WHAT I HAVE I'LL MAKE IT UP TO YOU I PROMISE!" And I did. And the people said they couldn't take the money, or have me work off the financial damages... But I felt better about myself having offered. Then I went to another grocery store and stole a diet coke the next day. I was prepared to not stop... Making up for what I did, or offering to, didn't make me morally good. It didn't make what I did morally ok, and it didn't make me a morally better person. I didn't become a better person until a few weeks later when I realized that stealing from those stores was never going to be ok. I could apologize and "make up for" it all I wanted... but stealing from those stores wasn't ok. I could justify it any which way... but it was not ok. I learned exactly how wrong stealing is. And in doing that, I became a better person. And while what I did, stealing from those stores, will never be ok... it's more ok because I learned from it. If the store had accepted my money and offer to pay off everything I'd stolen... that wouldn't have made this better. Nothing would have made it better like me learning how wrong stealing is. Like me not stealing not because I got caught or because of this and that...

It should also be said, I think our justice system should hold people accountable by holding them to the consequences of their actions. But I don't think someone becomes better and overcomes a mistake until they actually learn and move on. If you spend your whole life trying to "make up for" this or that, you're not overcoming anything. You're not becoming better... It's not a matter of apologizing... it's a matter of learning and doing.

Sorry, I just don't see your point. Angel clearly has learned, and is doing. I mean, on the one hand you've said trying to seek redemption isn't doing the right thing, then at the end of this post you say "it's about learning and doing". I don't get it.

There's never an indication given that Angel is after some reward or anything like that, especially after he signs away the Shanshu. He becomes discouraged from time to time, yeah, particularly in S5, but the fight is never about him "winning" his redemption. I don't know how much clearer I can say it.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Plus when he came to LA there was no Shanshu, so he didn't start it to become human. It just happened to be an added bonus to the good he already chose to do.

 

[Robb Stark]

Plus when he came to LA there was no Shanshu, so he didn't start it to become human. It just happened to be an added bonus to the good he already chose to do.

Bang on. This is totally true.

Also, Zoo, you're kind of omitting that the end of the day, you chose to steal that stuff. Angel didn't choose to become a vampire.

 

[white avenger]

As to Angel's signing away all claim to the Shanshu Prophecy, I read somewhere recently that, if you look very closely, he actually scrawls "Anger" instead of "Angel," so he actually signed away nothin. It was the same kind of red herring as Spike supposedly wanting the chip removed, rather than regaining his soul.

Concerning whether or not Angel was, in fact, a good man, I personally believe that he WANTED to be a good man, and worked very hard to accomplish that. Unfortunately, maybe because he wanted it so badly,he sometimes did things that he thought would help him achieve that goal that on the surface seemed to be the right thing, but ultimately wound up being wrong, with Season 8 being, to date, the worst example. Like the old expression goes, "One 'aw, s**t" cancels out a hundred 'attaboys.'" To me, the most admirable thing about Angel is that, no matter how many times he fouls up, he never gives up. He's constantly trying, he never gives up.

That, to me, is what makes Angel a good man. He never gives up. He always WANTS to do the right thing, and when he does screw up, which pretty much everyone does on occasion, he never lets it discourage him.

 

[SlayerFest]

As to Angel's signing away all claim to the Shanshu Prophecy, I read somewhere recently that, if you look very closely, he actually scrawls "Anger" instead of "Angel," so he actually signed away nothin. It was the same kind of red herring as Spike supposedly wanting the chip removed, rather than regaining his soul.

When I sign my signature, it looks like crap. If I signed it perfectly every time I needed to sign something, it would take longer than necessary. You can barely read what it says, plus he had just been stabbed in the hand so I doubt he was really thinking about how he was signing it. I also have a feeling that the PTB wouldn't say ''hey now...that "L'' actually looks like an "R"...congrats! Your handwriting is terrible so you get to be human."

 

[ladydorotea]

I think Angel really meant it when he signed away the Shanshu prophecy and whatever he wrote on the piece of paper was irrelevant. I also think that by virtue of that being a plot device signing away meant zilch in the great scale of things. Meaning that yes, he meant it, but also it meant nothing to the PtBS, because to quote/paraphrase from Whistler in S9 "Do you know what destiny means? It means the Universe using you." Or to put it blunt, Angel can sign away whatever he deems sign-able as many times as he wants , with ink, blood, saliva or any other bodily fluids - and it would mean zilch. Which was proven in AtF by the way, when Wesley-as-ghost confirmed that the signed piece of paper was never filed. Meaning that if the prophecy was ever about Angel - it would find a way to fulfill itself regardless of his signing. But good for him for trying to deny it.

 

[Taaroko]

I'm not sure what lesson you're expecting Angel to learn here, Zobo. That killing and eating people is bad? He already knew that when he was Liam. Anyone with even a shred of decency knows that instinctively and condemns such practices. Angelus wasn't a child making harmless mistakes or hurting people's feelings without realizing it. He knew perfectly well what he was doing, and he did all of it very deliberately. There was nothing Angel could learn from that once he had a soul. Because of the sort of person he is, though, it's in his nature to be repulsed by what Angelus did, and to see those deeds as his own. He never pretended that what Angelus did didn't happen, and he accepted full responsibility even though he shouldn't have to. He feels guilty when the demon inside him enjoys dreams about killing people. Heck, he feels guilty for being *tempted* to do something bad, even though his track record of resisting temptation is extremely good.

So yeah, Angel is a good man. If all he ever did was resist his demon and mind his own business, he'd still be a good man. Not a particularly useful one, granted, but every single day he's fighting the kinds of internal battles that no one in the real world has ever had to fight, and he keeps fighting and winning even though he's only going to have to do it all over again the next day, and the next day, forever. It's when he goes beyond that by helping others and actively joining the good fight that he starts to go from mere good man to hero. It took a while to get there. I think "I Will Remember You" was when he achieved hero status. To quote one of my favorite lines in the Buffyverse, again, "This one is willing to sacrifice every drop of human happiness and love he has ever known for another. He is not a lower being." He kept going in that vein, always willing to sacrifice himself, whether to save a single life or the whole world.

 

[Anca]

Angel is a "big picture" guy, the "end justify the means", so I guess as long as one is OK with this way of thinking he may be considered a good man (letting the lawyers being eaten by Darla and Dru, killing Drogyn an innocent just for the opportunity to make a stand against W&H, pre-preemptively killing Lindsey, asking Lorne to kill Lindsey, etc). Personally, I like better Buffy's "you can't fight evil with evil", so from my POV he's not a good man.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

As to Angel's signing away all claim to the Shanshu Prophecy, I read somewhere recently that, if you look very closely, he actually scrawls "Anger" instead of "Angel," so he actually signed away nothin. It was the same kind of red herring as Spike supposedly wanting the chip removed, rather than regaining his soul.

Concerning whether or not Angel was, in fact, a good man, I personally believe that he WANTED to be a good man, and worked very hard to accomplish that. Unfortunately, maybe because he wanted it so badly,he sometimes did things that he thought would help him achieve that goal that on the surface seemed to be the right thing, but ultimately wound up being wrong, with Season 8 being, to date, the worst example. Like the old expression goes, "One 'aw, s**t" cancels out a hundred 'attaboys.'" To me, the most admirable thing about Angel is that, no matter how many times he fouls up, he never gives up. He's constantly trying, he never gives up.

That, to me, is what makes Angel a good man. He never gives up. He always WANTS to do the right thing, and when he does screw up, which pretty much everyone does on occasion, he never lets it discourage him.

You are quoting from me in:

https://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=60237

He is very much a believer that the end justifies the means, which he shows when he permits the massacre at Holland Manners' home, accepts the top position at the L.A. branch of Wolfram & Hart, kills the Drogyn to get into the Circle of the Black Thorn and orders the hit on Lindsey. Is this what a good man would do? In the end, we see that the results he obtained were to unleash hell on earth on the unsuspecting population of L.A. He has a Machiavellian streak that always gets in the way of doing good. But he does spare Buffy the burden of keeping him as a relatively helpless normal man in "I WIll Remember You" and does considerable good at risk to himself, so he is a flawed hero at best. In a dramatic series, there is little point in a hero being perfect - he must have his flaws to carry an interesting story.

 

[KellGreen]

He is very much a believer that the end justifies the means, which he shows when he permits the massacre at Holland Manners' home, accepts the top position at the L.A. branch of Wolfram & Hart, kills the Drogyn to get into the Circle of the Black Thorn and orders the hit on Lindsey. Is this what a good man would do? In the end, we see that the results he obtained were to unleash hell on earth on the unsuspecting population of L.A. He has a Machiavellian streak that always gets in the way of doing good. But he does spare Buffy the burden of keeping him as a relatively helpless normal man in "I WIll Remember You" and does considerable good at risk to himself, so he is a flawed hero at best. In a dramatic series, there is little point in a hero being perfect - he must have his flaws to carry an interesting story.

This pretty much sums up why I don't think he is good at all. He's a crappy human and then a crappy ensoulled vamp: a statutory rapist with a rather flexible concept of morality. His work to help the helpless is to work towards redemption, to clear his conscience, because guilt's a bitca: no more, no less in my view. He's excessively condescending, and makes decisions for others without their knowlege, consent or input more than once (to Buffy and Connor). His continued arrogance that he knows better than everyone one else bugs me to no end, but that is more of a personality fault than a respresentation of goodness (or lack thereof).

 

[ladydorotea]

This pretty much sums up why I don't think he is good at all. He's a crappy human and then a crappy ensoulled vamp: a statutory rapist with a rather flexible concept of morality. His work to help the helpless is to work towards redemption, to clear his conscience, because guilt's a bitca: no more, no less in my view. He's excessively condescending, and makes decisions for others without their knowlege, consent or input more than once (to Buffy and Connor). His continued arrogance that he knows better than everyone one else bugs me to no end, but that is more of a personality fault than a respresentation of goodness (or lack thereof).

To each their own, I guess. Personally I think the mere fact of somebody fighting evil 'because guilt is a bitca' is remarkable in itself. See, not everybody even with a soul is capable of feeling guilt (cough, cough), let alone to deal with it by actively and selflessly helping complete strangers. It is more or less like saying that helping people out of guilt is arrogant - because the act of helping is presumptuous and implies one's superiority. While being self-absorbed and self-assured enough to dismiss all the guilty feelings ( guilt is 'no bitca' )makes one somehow a 'better man' - cause you know, not taking any decisions into your hands at all is required to do - well - just nothing. I suppose it is a double edged sword dilemma or something like that, but yup, doing nothing and not feeling any guilt is safer in the long range - no chance of spoiling 'clean record' that can be easily maintained by imagining it so.