Was Angel A Good Man?

[ladydorotea]

Yeah, except according to canon comics Angel is a rapist.

No, according to the canon comics, multiple interviews with Dark Horse Chief Editor and all of the involved writers - he is not because

Spoiler

Him and Buffy having sex in S8 was under influence but also consensual

. I also suggest watching Cabin in the Woods for reference to the 'glowphynol' as well as reading Joss' interviews on S8 and Angel. And I suggest you chill a little before bringing up these matters as well. And get back on topic.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION]

What is it with you Spike/Angel fans and rape apologizing? Stop trying to reduce your cognitive dissonance. It's just creepy.

multiple interviews with Dark Horse Chief Editor and all of the involved writers - he is not. I also suggest watching Cabin in the Woods for reference to the 'glowphynol' as well as reading Joss' interviews on S8 and Angel.

I couldn't care less about their PR crap. I read the comic, I saw brainwashing, lack of consent, rape.

And get back on topic.

I very much am. Angel is not a good man because he was willing to destroy the world, murder and rape. He agrees to go along with the Twilight bullshit because he believes that end justifies the means. Hundreds of murdered slayers, Giles dead and Buffy raped, all because of his decisions and he still didn't get what he wanted.

And I suggest you chill a little before bringing up these matters as well.

Lady, I am ice-cold.

---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 AM ----------

Him and Buffy having sex in S8 was under influence but also consensual.

Unbelievable.

Without what you call an influence there would be no intercourse at all. That alone completely precludes any sort of consent.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I have read all the arguments for considering Angel to be a good man.

"And yet, somehow, I just can't seem to care."

 

[ladydorotea]

I couldn't care less about their PR crap. I read the comic, I saw brainwashing, lack of consent, rape.

I think you saw mostly what you wanted to see? Because of the - what is the flip-side of cognitive dissonance - doublethink?

"To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it."

Because it is hard to see lack of consent when the girl is gushing her love out like a fountain - 'You are not only the love of my life but also the man I want to live it with!' to quote directly -right after the fact and no longer under influence.

Without what you call an influence there would be no intercourse at all. That alone completely precludes any sort of consent.

Actually, that is a very questionable statement - because of see above. The girl in question claims post-fact-um that that was the bes-test happiest day of her life ( and she is no longer under influence) and proceeds to question if 'that was real' - because of how good and content she feels and she is afraid it is all in her head only. Then a day later she proceed to describe the whole thing as 'elemental' and magical and so on.

I very much am. Angel is not a good man because he was willing to destroy the world, murder and rape. He agrees to go along with the Twilight bullshit because he believes that end justifies the means. Hundreds of murdered slayers, Giles dead and Buffy raped, all because of his decisions and he still didn't get what he wanted.

That is a very personal interpretation as well - rooted in doubletalk and deliberate simplistic take on the actual plot of the comics. I would understand this before S9 and issue #15 in particular , but afterwards it sounds funny to put it mild. But I think this conversation would suit better in the comic discussion thread and so I won't continue here.

 

[KellGreen]

With zero knowledge of circumstance (and there are almost always circumstances) though, to say that just because you're older you're "manipulating", is idiotic. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, it does, but I never had anything but the best of intentions when I dated that girl, and when it ended, it wasn't because I wanted it too, and if anything I was the one more broken up by it. I dated her because I really liked her, and treated the same as if I were dating someone my own age. There was no "power imbalance" because I respected her and valued her, just as she did to me. Angel always respected Buffy. Sometimes he worried about her and did what he felt was best, just as Buffy did with him, and I'm not saying he was always right, but saying he had no respect for her is more than a stretch.

You're right, in California the age of consent is legally 18. However, this clearly is not a clear-cut morality law where you're either right or you're wrong. Everywhere in Canada, the age of consent is 16 or 17. So if Angel sleeps with Buffy in California he's a rapist, but if he does it in Toronto everything's perfectly fine? You can't realistically say there isn't some ambiguity there..

These laws are in place for a reason. While I admire that you are NOT the kind of person to take advantage of the situation, there are far more who do. We could go back and forth indefinitely on the slippery slope of this topic. My point, as are those of the majority of lawmakers who create these laws, are that the older partner has, at least in theory, additional life experience, knowledge and tools that a younger person does not yet possess. Yes, a whole shit-ton of this stems from a serial ephebofile I knew in my teens, who was still dating 15 yr olds in his 30's. I get that there not all men who are attracted to and date teenagers are doing it to have the upper hand in the relathionship, but that sometimes you just like them for who they are. I do get that, really. (My older sister was NOT in any way, shape or form a naive teenager when she was dating men - seriously, think a female version of Dean from Supernatural - so I know there are numerous exceptions).

And if age difference and manipulation by older guys is your argument, you completely skate over everything Spike does with Buffy. Buffy is what, 20 when she sleeps with Spike? Emotionally that's not much older, at all, in comparison to when she was with Angel. If anything, it's worse, because Spike was fully aware she was in a horrible state of mind coming back from heaven. Not only that, but he tries to manipulate her into believing she's broken and should live in the dark. Come one.

But then again, you obviously like Buffy/Spike, so I guess it's easier to just avoid the logic in that.

There is no logic in that, however. 20 yr old Buffy is vastly more experienced and less innocent and naive than the teenage Buffy that lost her virginity to Angel; largely, in fact, because of that. This thread isn't about this, so I wont' go off on a long diatribe regarding emotional, mental and physical development through adolescence and early adulthood. I'm not looking at it as Angel's vampire age, but rather that of his human self (I put him at about 23-24 when turned).

 

[Black Eye Guy]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]


Not quite like Angel. From California Penal Code Section 261.5:



For Angel it would be a felony, except Angel cannot commit a felony because he's not a human being. No personhood, no legal ability to commit a crime so as far as law goes, this entire discussion is RIDICULOUS.

If the discussion is ridiculous then dont reply to it.

It also doesn't matter if the conviction is dropped to a misdemeanour, its still classes as statutory rape

Yeah, except according to canon comics Angel is a rapist. Also, dude, not everything is about shipping, no, really, take off your shipping goggles. That goes to all of you people, you're just partaking in another mind-bogglingly pointless shipper war.

Get back on topic and chill out.

I haven't kept up with the comics, I've heard of the story but don't know it for myself.
We're talking about Angel being a good man, it's only natural that Spike gets brought into it as their similar enough to compare and contrast.

 

[KellGreen]

Ok grand I didn't know the age of consent in CA, but that also means that Xander, Cordielia, Faith, Willow and Oz are all possibly "statutory rapists" to, since we aren't exactly clear on their ages. .

Age of consent laws, as is the case in my state, is in relation to the age of the other party as well. I.E.: age of consent in WA is 16, so long as there is less than 4 years in age difference between the two parties involved.

I think just throwing out the words statutory rapists is just desperate Spike fans (not just yourself I've seen others make the same case) finding a way to connect the word rape since it applies to Spike.

Huh? Doesn't one have to actually, you know, rape someone to have it applied to them? Also, Angel is a rapist, though it's not as shown on Buffy as it is on Angel (S5 "Destiny," for example).

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Age of consent laws, as is the case in my state, is in relation to the age of the other party as well. I.E.: age of consent in WA is 16, so long as there is less than 4 years in age difference between the two parties involved.

but if we're looking at CA, where as you pointed out the age is 18, and the law states that any person having sex under that age is guilty, granted you get a lesser charge is your within the 3 year range of the age, but it's still guilty with less of a charge.

Huh? Doesn't one have to actually, you know, rape someone to have it applied to them? Also, Angel is a rapist, though it's not as shown on Buffy as it is on Angel (S5 "Destiny," for example).

When I said the word rape applied to spike, I meant in Seeing Red when he attempts to rape her, he went there with intent on having sex, then forced himself on her when she said no and didn't stop till she fought him off, if your applying the law to Angel, then that act puts Spike into the attempted rape category.

I'm totally blanking on what Angel did in Damages thought I haven't watched S5 in ages! I tried to google but nothing came up, remind me?

 

[KellGreen]

When I said the word rape applied to spike, I meant in Seeing Red when he attempts to rape her, he went there with intent on having sex, then forced himself on her when she said no and didn't stop till she fought him off, if your applying the law to Angel, then that act puts Spike into the attempted rape category.

I'm totally blanking on what Angel did in Damages thought I haven't watched S5 in ages! I tried to google but nothing came up, remind me?

It's "Destiny," when William/Spike returns to find Angel having sex with someone he can't see yet (turns out to be Dru): "Well... looks like you haven't had your fill of her after all" thinking that he's with the woman who we shortly thereafter see is now dead. This directly implies that Angel had already had some of her, which I cannot imagine was anything other than rape or necrophilia.

Yes, Spike almost raped Buffy. That discussion is on the Spike thread.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION]

right after the fact and no longer under influence.

That's not true. Buffy's still very much under influence in issue 37. Here's a quote:

I'm sorry. I'm still feeling like something got switched on and I don't know how to turn it off. God my brain is turning into cinemax over here.

Read the comic again.

I would understand this before S9 and issue #15 in particular , but afterwards it sounds funny to put it mild.

Look, most of season 8 readers ( way over 80% ), myself included, have had it with those comics. You can't expect anybody to follow them anymore.

 

[Robb Stark]

I just re-watched the episode "I will remember you" and here's a pretty clear-cut example of Angel being a good man.

When he becomes human again Doyle takes him to see the Oracles, who are implied to be the direct conduit to the Powers that Be. Doyle isn't allowed in, but Angel is because he was a "pure heart". I know that's just one instance, but what else would you take that for than he's a good man?

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Couldn't Oracles be Whistler's minions?

 

[Robb Stark]

Couldn't Oracles be Whistler's minions?

There's never shown to be any connection between the Oracles and Whistler. I have no idea about what goes on in the comics, so if something occurs there that changes that then you'll have to forgive me, but from what the show portrays the Oracles are agents of the Powers, and Angel can only gain access to them because he's a truly good and pure person.

And again just from the show, Whistler is pretty useless, but he's not evil. He's the one who guides Angel to Buffy to protect her.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION] - yes, I was talking about comics - in the new issue we find out that Whistler is a son of a PtB agent and a purebreed demon, and that he was manipulating Angel since his first encounter with Buffy. Whistler's goal was to create a new dimension, Twilight, at the price of destruction of our "old" world.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/Comics_s9/11.jpg

The only way to achieve it was to make Buffy "ascend" by torturing her, making her powerless, taking away her moral authority.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/Comics_s9/buffyriley_15.jpg

To make Angel accept his offer, Whistler had to subject him to many emotional tortures and kill all his hopes. Giving him happiness and taking it away within a day could be one of Whistler's evil tricks.

As to The Powers, it's not clear if they approve Whistler's actions or not. But they don't try to stop him. The new issue depicts The Powers as quite ruthless beings: they kill their agent (Whistler's father) as soon as they find out that he slept with a demon (Whistler's mother).

 

[white avenger]

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION] - yes, I was talking about comics - in the new issue we find out that Whistler is a son of a PtB agent and a purebreed demon, and that he was manipulating Angel since his first encounter with Buffy. Whistler's goal was to create a new dimension, Twilight, at the price of destruction of our "old" world.

I know that it's off topic here, but does this mean that Buffy's relationship with Angel was just something resulting from Whistler's manipulations? I'm a long way from being the biggest Bangel shipper in the world, but even I don't like the sound of that.

 

[ladydorotea]

@AlwaysBangel

Yes, we found out that Whistler was a son of purebred demon and a celestial agent of PtBS. His parents were slaughtered on sight and he was adapted by PtBS as a power of Balance. He was granted true visions of possible futures and his instinctive need for balance guided him through centuries of his mission.

No , he did not manipulate Buffy and Angel from the start as @MoscowWatcher said - it is her very personal and very biased interpretation. Whistler was capable of seeing possible futures , what he was always doing was maintaining balance by pushing events to go one way or another in favor of either progress/order or chaos/regress, or if you like it better good or evil. Although it is heavily implied that he also tried to maintain balance between magic and science sides as well.

Whistler's goal was not as MW saying to 'to create a new dimension, Twilight, at the price of destruction of our "old" world', rather it was to achieve evolution for this world by virtue of creating new reality where everybody would be able to evolve and where balance between all elements ( order/chaos, good/evil, etc) would be maintained 'naturally'. Since he is a power of Balance he was all into this idea ever since he saw a vision that every other supposed future ended in virtually nothing - like the world not existing. CG mentioned in his interview that Whistler never lied to anybody - so I assume his visions were always about multiple possibilities - and supposedly all other possibilities led to something that was seriously bad. Does not mean that his Twilight plan was good idea - but it was not pure evil for evil's sake as MW here keeps projecting.


No, Whistler did not subject Angel to any emotional tortures - this is once again all MW's opinion based on biased interpretation. The prophecy of Twilight was not invented by Whistler - it existed as one of possible scenarios. Whistler and Twilight were two completely different entities and there is no indication to or against them even communicating. In fact because Whistler was 'behind the scenes' guy before loosing his visions and going insane after Seed of Magic was destroyed - he always preferred to affect the events indirectly. All that Angel was subjected to was pure Twilight. Whistler's hand in all of that was purely 'giving advice' and reassurances that all that is happening is the only way to prevent 'the end of the world'. Since Christos Gage insisted that Whistler never lied to Angel in a couple of interviews - it is quite possible that the world was indeed ending - because Buffy's empowering all the potential resulted in huge imbalance that awakened Twilight - which was one of the clauses for Twilight prophecy ( the other one was loving a vampire). So yeah, Whistler saw all of that coming and did not prevent it, Whistler in fact kept reassuring Angel to submit himself to Twilight - but personally he never lifted a finger to torture Angel.

The new issue does not depict PtBs as 'quite ruthless' either - they are depicted more of powers of order than good, true, but it is also indicated that they are the only 'agency of good' in the verse - however imperfect they are. They do get involved in killing their own agent - Whistler's dad - but they spare the baby and raise him as one of their own, giving him true visions of the future for life and placing him so that he could maintain the status quo forever - because supposedly dalliance between his parents ( demon and celestial) almost destroyed the balance. This whole aspect of new lore is a bit controversial - and many other aspects of Buffyverse lore - but it is by no means as black and white as MW here was describing. I.e. Whistler was never written as purely evil , neither was his idea of pushing towards the fulfillment of the Twilight prophecy ( mind that it was not his invention - he saw true visions but he could not create a new prophecy out of nowhere) was written as 'manipulating Buffy and Angel from the start'. Thats bit is completely MW's interpretation.

I suggest actually reading the comics - even if you don't read S9 - because it is a very rich and interesting bit of lore, worth investigating.

 

[janas]

..moreover, CG said countless times that Buffy and Angel have not been under any influence when they chose to love each other. They were not manipulated by anybody or anything. They have made ​​their choices, and they did it using the free will. Gage has been clear about this, is sufficient read his Twitter, his Q/A and interviews. Therefore, I wonder why continue with these claims and incorrect information, when have been widely denials from CG?

 

[Moscow Watcher]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] - In "Much Ado About Nothing" Beatrice and Benedick fall in love because both are tricked into believing that the other fell in love with him/her. Does it diminish their feelings? I don't think so. They're clearly one of the favorite couples of Joss Whedon.

[MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION]

Whistler's goal was [...] to achieve evolution for this world by virtue of creating new reality where everybody would be able to evolve and where balance between all elements ( order/chaos, good/evil, etc) would be maintained 'naturally'.

In 1917, Communists proclaimed a similar program - creating a new world where everybody will be happy and everything will be balanced. And it turned into disaster.

The prophecy of Twilight was not invented by Whistler - it existed as one of possible scenarios

Scenarios don't exist per se. Scenarios are written. We don't know how old Whistler is. Maybe it was him who wrote it.

I don't insist that it was him - but so far it looks like the writers plan to make Whistler the big bad of season 9 and to put on him the blame of what happened in season 8. Let's wait till the end of the season.

In fact because Whistler was 'behind the scenes' guy before loosing his visions and going insane after Seed of Magic was destroyed - he always preferred to affect the events indirectly.

Exactly. Staying behind the scenes and affecting the events indirectly. I.e. manipulating others to do what he thought was necessary.

I suggest actually reading the comics - even if you don't read S9 - because it is a very rich and interesting bit of lore, worth investigating.

Yes, yes! I support the idea wholeheartedly! (Really, guys, when me and Ladydorotea agree on something, it's worth noticing! 🙂))

 

[white avenger]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] - In "Much Ado About Nothing" Beatrice and Benedick fall in love because both are tricked into believing that the other fell in love with him/her. Does it diminish their feelings? I don't think so. They're clearly one of the favorite couples of Joss Whedon.

Okay, I guess that putting those two crazy kids together knowing full well what will most likely happen isn't QUITE manipulating the romance as such. It still takes some of the spontaneity out of the whole thing, though. "Love at first manipulation" just doesn't have the same ring to it, even though "love" still remains the key word.

 

[ladydorotea]

[MENTION=10218]Moscow Watcher[/MENTION]

MW, I think you are missing a very important point in your interpretation of both Russian Revolution of 1917 and Whistler's pursuit of Twilight. Our commies did not 'manipulate' the country into the situation the country was in - in 1917 by organizing the events to their liking. In fact, the whole revolution of 1917 would have been impossible if Russia's PtBs of the previous 200 or so years have not actively resisted the constitutional reforms trying to maintain the imperial status quo - until the situation had become unbearable, then exasperated the economical and political disaster by getting involved ( and loosing) a major war - which is actually a very funny parallel with the situation on Earth in S8.

As such the communists were not manipulating the historical events - the were using the existing situation and took a ride on the departing train of the revolution. I daresay that I see Whistler doing the same - since his major 'superpower' was seeing the possible futures - not summoning celestial winged lions or granting Angel and Buffy god-like powers. See the actual text of #15 to see where you have come up with 'manipulating' - the actual wording in the text is 'using' - as in when Whistler says ' Destiny is the Universe using you' in answer to Angel's 'you were using us'.

From that perspective, Whedon's 'changing the world' metaphor of last season is much more global and dystopian than a confrontation between the hero and the Big Bad/s. ( ie Buffy and Twilight) I understand your reluctance to see beyond the white hats - black hats simplicity. It is much easier to gloss over Buffy's culpability and her ( and other Scoobies) poor judgement being major driving force behind the situation - same as Angel wa s amajor part of it. The funny thing though is that Buffy did not even have Whistler reassuring her that her actions are just and proper, and that the end is justifying the means ( bank robbery, war with humanity) - since she is 'saving the world'.

Add here Willow mentioning 'sharing the power' as one of the preconditions of Twilight, add Whistler's regret over 'helpin' good people to put it all on the line to change the world... knowing at the end of the day they gotta fail...', add Buffy's S8 'when you change the world - the world is different'. And you have quite a different picture from what you are seeing - such as simple Whistler manipulating the two lovers for his darker purpose. There is tremendous amount of flax/free will choices at each and every turn of the story - like the need for Buffy to survive ( or be revived) for all this time/s and eventually to empower the potentials for Twilight to become the future - instead of potential future. Not to mention that the world could have ended about dozen times at every turn. So as such Whistler's role was/is much more complicated than the 'manipulator who worked all that time to bring about doom'. He was the active power of balance - working towards the world's survival most of the time - yet hoping to eventually ride his way on the train of the Twilight prophecy into the new world. I find him fascinating - and way more compelling - a villain than simple black hat.

Btw, as such 'writing a prophecy' that is not based on true premonition is pointless. Same as it is pointless to write a recipe for explosion on a piece of paper such as : mix a so and so amount of oxygen and nitrogen and throw a spark. You can write it and file it - but it will never make a mix of oxygen and nitrogen explosive. On other hand if you substitute nitrogen with hydrogen... you might just have a major prophecy for a disaster on your hands.