Was Angel out of line?

Cordelia Chase* said:
The bragging on Riley was so childish. I think she was only trying to make Angel angry because she was mad.
Click to expand...

I didn't see it so much as bragging as trying to regain equal footing. Angel was all set and fine and didn't need her anymore, so she was trying to show that she was fine, too, and didn't need him--even though she really did, so it was a lame attempt.
 
A very lame attempt. Thats what I meant by she was trying to make him mad. As she really wanted Angel but saw she wasnt needed anymore.

but

.............Idk....when it comes to Faith, something takes me over. I know I LOVE Buffy. She's the best but I always run in her(Faith) defense. I guess I understood where she was coming from.
 
Jaded Wolf said:
He wasn't out of line. Buffy came in making orders like Angel was part of her "Scooby" gang and he's not. Angel never was and especially in the city he works in. LA is different than Sunnydale and Angel Investigations are dealing with some darker things. Buffy was out of her element there and Angel saw redeeming qualities in Faith. Buffy was too upset with Faith to see that so I think Angel was trying to allow Buffy to get some perspective.

Plus, the whole line where Buffy starts bragging about Riley sounded like some little school girl trying to make the ex mad. Angel had every right.
Click to expand...

I agree that Buffy was ordering Angel around like he was part of the "Scooby" gang. And I agree that her anger towards Faith had blinded her from realizing what Angel was trying to do with the other Slayer. However . . . I disagree that Angel Investigations were dealing with darker aspects of the supernatural in L.A. than what Buffy and her friends were dealing with in Sunnydale.

Remember . . . L.A. was an old stomping ground for Buffy.
 
LadyLavinia said:
Remember . . . L.A. was an old stomping ground for Buffy.
Click to expand...


True but she didnt stomp around that much.

Yes, Buffy just to be in LA but when she first became the Slayer. Something that she really didnt except at first. But Buffy was alone in this time. A teenager not worrying about vampires but about the latest trend of fashion.

And while Buffy was in LA she really didnt deal with anything "dark" so to speak. SHe recently discovered vampires. And thats all.
 
I disagree with the theory that Buffy behaved in an immature manner by chasing a known threat to L.A. and then stepping all over Angel's territory.

First off, there was at that time supposed to be one slayer in all the world. She guards the Hellmouth because there's more demon activity there than anywhere else in the world -- L.A. included, not because it's some sort of playpen to L.A.'s real world badness. That said, there's one slayer in the world (as a rule). That pretty much means everywhere in the world is in her jurisdiction. As a vampire, Angel can't just carve out a piece and hang up a "No Slayer's Allowed" sign like it's a clubhouse and he's a boy who believes in girl cooties. He doesn't have that right. No beasty has that right. The slayer can come and go as she pleases.

Secondly, Angel was sticking his nose into a slayer problem, not the other way around. His intentions were good, but part of what was going on with Faith was a power dynamic between the two slayers. There was supposed to be one slayer. Instead, there were two. One went rogue even after attempts were made to recover her. Buffy was doing her duty in attempting to take out a dangerous element of the demon world and she was also restoring balance by removing the second slayer. She was angry and vengeful, yes, but she also had a point as well as every right to deal with the Faith problem. The Faith problem was Buffy's problem -- even moreso when Faith went after Buffy's family, body, and position as THE slayer. The facts that Angel wanted to help Faith and that she ended up in L.A. do not necessarily give Angel the right to interfere by telling Buffy what she can or cannot do and where she can or cannot do it.

Angel has no rights in this slayer/vampire thing. Buffy's the boss. Angel exists because she allows him to live. She makes an exception for his souled status just as, later, she makes an exception for Anya's changed nature, for Spike's chip, and for Clem's ability to assimilate. For him to assert any sort of rights over Buffy is ridiculous. He certainly has no right to hit her or to expel her from "his" town just because he doesn't like her policy regarding rogue slayers. I'm betting that if he wasn't her ex, his butt would have been dust for far less than that.

I think Angel was way out of line. He was asserting rights and control that he just plain didn't have.
 
I hate to sound a party pooper but Faith went to LA and TRIED to kill him via WolfRam and Hart, then she attacked his freinds before COLLAPSING in his arms crying so yeah it was HIS territory, broken torn up and in need of redemption yeah ,Faith fit the bill, then Buffy turns up, ok she was worried and wanted to protect Angel, and stop Faith, and get her own back, most poeple would, but what the Issue here is Buffy didn't know when to BACK off and LET Faith take responcibility for her actions, let her take her own path to redemption, she INTERFERED at every turn Angel made, by upsetting Faith so she would snap and she would prove her piont, but thankfully Faith didn't bite, and ONLY helped stop the council when it involved killing. A step too far.


Then when her tantrum was over she saw that Angel's world didn't involve her anymore so she nastilly rubbed her "New life" in his face which was out of order,and he had every right to say what he said to her, in fact I would of said those things myself, she was very childish going "See Faith wins again" it wasn't about Faith winning she was trying to redeem herself and refused to see it deliberatly because she didn't know when to back off when it was necessary, and she admited he was right to say the things he said in the following Buffy ep.
 
palabravampiress said:
I disagree with the theory that Buffy behaved in an immature manner by chasing a known threat to L.A. and then stepping all over Angel's territory.

First off, there was at that time supposed to be one slayer in all the world. She guards the Hellmouth because there's more demon activity there than anywhere else in the world -- L.A. included, not because it's some sort of playpen to L.A.'s real world badness. That said, there's one slayer in the world (as a rule). That pretty much means everywhere in the world is in her jurisdiction. As a vampire, Angel can't just carve out a piece and hang up a "No Slayer's Allowed" sign like it's a clubhouse and he's a boy who believes in girl cooties. He doesn't have that right. No beasty has that right. The slayer can come and go as she pleases.

Secondly, Angel was sticking his nose into a slayer problem, not the other way around. His intentions were good, but part of what was going on with Faith was a power dynamic between the two slayers. There was supposed to be one slayer. Instead, there were two. One went rogue even after attempts were made to recover her. Buffy was doing her duty in attempting to take out a dangerous element of the demon world and she was also restoring balance by removing the second slayer. She was angry and vengeful, yes, but she also had a point as well as every right to deal with the Faith problem. The Faith problem was Buffy's problem -- even moreso when Faith went after Buffy's family, body, and position as THE slayer. The facts that Angel wanted to help Faith and that she ended up in L.A. do not necessarily give Angel the right to interfere by telling Buffy what she can or cannot do and where she can or cannot do it.

Angel has no rights in this slayer/vampire thing. Buffy's the boss. Angel exists because she allows him to live. She makes an exception for his souled status just as, later, she makes an exception for Anya's changed nature, for Spike's chip, and for Clem's ability to assimilate. For him to assert any sort of rights over Buffy is ridiculous. He certainly has no right to hit her or to expel her from "his" town just because he doesn't like her policy regarding rogue slayers. I'm betting that if he wasn't her ex, his butt would have been dust for far less than that.

I think Angel was way out of line. He was asserting rights and control that he just plain didn't have.
Click to expand...


Anyways, I disagree with Angel "sticking his noes in anything".

Faith came to LA.
Wolfram and Hart recruited her.
She attacked ANgel in hopes that he would kill her.

Buffy could of came to LA as she did. There was nothing wrong with that. Only how she acted was the problem. But we wouldnt have had to worry about any of this if BUffy would of let Angel get through to Faith back in Sunnydale instead of acting selfish and immature once again.

And with removing the second Slayer thing. HELLO! Another one would of been called so I dont think removing the second slayer to restore balance was an issue. As we saw when Kendra died, Faith was called. So if Faith would have been "taken out" by Buffy, another girl would have been "chosen". ANd at the time it wasnt about the SLayer/Vampire thing you suggested. It was about what was going on in there lives.

And I doubt Angel lives only because Buffy "allows" it. He's an 2 century old vampire and if it came down to him and Buffy fighting , him for his life, i doubt he'd let her just stake him.

I really do understand Buffy's point of view, but she ket throwing her new life in it and placing everything on Faith which was right but until she said that Faith wins again.

Totally out of line.
 
I Buffy was totally in the right. She did act kind of snotty.

As for being in L.A. and being recruited by Wolfram and Hart, well, while I think those things do deserve a spot on Angel's radar screen, I don't think those give him dibs. Buffy's got a right to be involved, too. Faith provoking him gave him the right to deal with her as he did or to kill her.

Now, my problem with Angel is pretty much the same as my problem with Buffy in this situation. Buffy came in and wanted to deal with it one way. No discussion. Angel wanted to deal with it another way. No discussion. Both thought their way was right. Neither were willing to budge.

I wish they'd sat down together and had a rational chat. But they didn't. That leads me to question -- if compromise is off the table, as it was for those two -- who has the right to make the final call. According to my logic, that's Buffy. She's the one with the sacred duty, after all.

As far as if they were to go toe-to-toe... they did. Buffy killed Angel once. Just her. No friends. No love. No confidence. Just Buffy. It was a whole big climactic battle thingie. I have no trouble believing she'd do it again. I think the AI team thought so, too, which is why they called Faith instead of Buffy in when Angelus escaped. Faith, grateful for the help that Angel offered during this little incident, wanted to return the favor. Buffy, who'd killed Angelus once before, would do it again. That's why I think Angel needs to step lightly and have a little more respect for the slayer. He lives (or unlives) in the open, has any sort of territory at all, and fights the good fight because Buffy has decided to make an exception for the fact that he has a soul. Some other slayer (like Kendra, for instance) may not have made that exception. That's why I say that, although L.A. may be his territory in the demon world, Angel doesn't have any territory out of which he can just shut the slayer because he'd rather handle things his way.

As for the second slayer thing, good point, Cordelia Chase*. I forgot another one would be called. So that part of my argument is out the window. I still think a rogue slayer is slayer business, though. It was slayer business in season 5 when Andrew and the other slayers came to pick up one of their number. Why wouldn't it be slayer business when it was Faith? I think Angel had a say. I think his opinion should have been important. But do I think that a once and future rogue vampire should have greater say than the slayer in the matter of a slayer gone wrong? No. No I don't.
 
I agree that a rogue slayer is slayer business and both didn't listen when it came to Faith, Angel should of understood Buffy was pissed, and try to clam her and explain things but Buffy in her "wisdom" didn't listen when he did say something, so the fault lied with her not knowing when to back off which was my issue with Buffy, Angel hadn't time for vendettas to get in the way that's why he told her to stop interfering, for which I can't blame him.

It was her "see Faith wins again" bit that put finally nail in the coffin in the respect I had for her charactor ( Have none for her at all now especialy after Damage) THAT was out of order it wasn't Faith wins again it was her petty little mind expressing it's self again. That scene just screemed "child" to me.
 
Its not Angel's city- Buffy can go wherever she wants...I was SO MAD when he said all that, but its true, he had a point.
 
white avenger
white avenger
Yeah, and it grows right out of the top of his head!
Honestly I don't think that either of them were entirely at fault. They were BOTH doing their jobs. Buffy was the Slayer and Faith being a Slayer too is automatically her business but so too is it Angel's. He was employed by the powers to help the helpless, to save souls. I don't think anyone could disagree that Faith's soul needed saving. Buffy wasn't and still isn't qualififed to do that. She doesn't have it in her but Angel does.

This ep and the following episode on Buffy are basically and hour and a half dedicated to human pain. Raw, real human emotion and that is why so many things were said and done that were not necessarily intended. We have to remember that Buffy and Angel really weren't in each other's worlds anymore. They didn't know the ins and outs of their day to day lives. I think this unsettled to two of them in no small amount.

Buffy and Angel had been each other's constants for three years, the one thing that both could rely on without fail. When Buffy heads to L.A. this isn't really true anymore. They were both hit with curve ball after curve ball.

-Angel finding out that Buffy found that someone to take her into the light. It may have been what he left her for but idea of that and the reality of it are two very different things. Like he said, it cut him up inside.

-Buffy has a very clear image of Angel in her mind and it basically consists of him holding her in his arms and fighting off her demons. That is an almost sacred thing to her, Angel is hers and I think she in part came to L.A. for him fight her demons for her again. Riley not being able to tell the difference cut her deeper than she would like, Faith once told Buffy that Buffy was just like her. This didn't sit well with Buffy at all and Riley not being able to see that difference, something that I think Buffy clings to, broke Buffy a little. So she ran to the one thing that could ever fix her but walking down those stairs and seeing Angel give that comort to Faith shattered her.

-I think seeing Angel in his new life and a new role was heartbreaking for Buffy. He had always needed her in Sunnydale. She pretty much was his life but in L.A. he has friends, loyal friends at that. At the time Scoobies were pretty much ready to implode. She most have felt like a failure. She still needed him but he, to her eyes at least did not need her. He was stronger, more assertive, he was a leader and all the while her army was falling apart.


And because of this Buffy lashes out, she feels threatened in the worst way and so she goes on the offensive. The things she says to him and he to her were designed to cause the most pain. I don't think they necessarily meant them at all. Buffy clearly didn't trust nor love Riley and while Buffy may not have known how Angel takes his blood anymore she still knows him better than anyone because she knew just what to say to hurt him as much as possible and vice versa.

Buffy and Angel were not two people being petty or vying for ownership of towns. They were two people who care about each other deeply but they had a new world thrust upon them and they just didn't know how to ajust or what part they had to play now. What we saw in Sanctuary and The Yoka Factor are Buffy and ANgel fumbling threw these new roles, hoping to find their footing. Neither of them were at fault they were just hurt.
 
A
Angel's vision
I love that Perspective and congrats on being a mod WOOO!
Angel was not outta line. Buffy was. She came tromping in there and sometimes I think she'd rather see the worst in people. Plus she was bossy.

That's why Buffy isn't my favorite character lol.
 
A
Angel's vision
You and me both!
Well Instead of taking both sides I've taken Angel's. Buffy was definitely out of line here, not Angel. He only hit her because she wasn't thinking straight and was going after Faith. All that was on Buffy's mind was hurting Faith/ getting justice for what she did. While Angel was only thinking about helping Faith and getting her redemption. His job. He told her to leave, he should have. He loves her. She knows that. And yet she is with someone else and he can't deal with it. The person he loves is with someone else. Who wouldn't have told her to leave? Anyways I don't think Angel was at fault.
 
No matter what way I look at it I can't help but see both sides
 
Did you notice that she gets almost the same expression here when Angel hits her as when Spike does the same thing later n "Wrecked?" On both occasions, she seems more shocked that THEY would dare to hit HER, even though on both occasions, she hit them first. Come to think of it, she even kicked Riley around once. No wonder she can't keep a guy!
 
Buffy was such a hardcore bitch to EVERYONE in this episode that I did not even watch Buffy for a month after first seeing this episode. I hated her. And Angel was not out of line whatsoever.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom