Was anyone else expecing more from Buffy and Spike's reunion in S8?

[Robb Stark]

Now, I've always been on Team Angel, and I loved seeing Buffy and Angel get back together, but I'm a Spike fan too, and when he shows up late in the game in S8 I was pretty excited to see him and Buffy meet again. But it was just...lacking. After the way Spike went out in S7 and all that's transpired for both him and Buffy since then, I was expecting a really cool scene.

Instead, Buffy gives him crap, and isn't even happy to see him. It kind of bugged me, actually.

 

[white avenger]

I was definitely expecting more than we got. It didn't have to be some great epic reunion scene, and we'd found out in the IDW Spike arc that Buffy actually already knew that Spike was back, but, still, there should have been SOMETHING, if it was nothing more than a "Thank you for saving the world." At the very least, they were friends. Spike was arguably her closest friend and most loyal supporter in Season 7, and he doesn't even rate a hug or a "Glad to see you." My sister and I have warmer greetings after not seeing each other for a couple of weeks.

 

[Robb Stark]

I was definitely expecting more than we got. It didn't have to be some great epic reunion scene, and we'd found out in the IDW Spike arc that Buffy actually already knew that Spike was back, but, still, there should have been SOMETHING, if it was nothing more than a "Thank you for saving the world." At the very least, they were friends. Spike was arguably her closest friend and most loyal supporter in Season 7, and he doesn't even rate a hug or a "Glad to see you." My sister and I have warmer greetings after not seeing each other for a couple of weeks.

Yeah, this is exactly how I felt. I liked how the Spike IDW series was build off of (I kind of thought that all that continuity would be pretty much ignored, and I'm glad it wasn't), and his return was a big but very cool shock.

But then...nothing. I mean, there was no explanation as to how Spike knew all that he knew (hell, they even made a joke about it within the issue), and he really had no role beyond being just an expository tool. I know that Buffy was aware that he was back in action, and that Spike had already seen Andrew and Willow, but there was nothing from Xander, Dawn or even Riley. For such a huge and important character, it ticked me off quite a bit. I expected a lot more.

And you're right, Spike and Buffy were clearly shown to have a deep, meaningful connection with one another. I didn't understand why she was so mad at him, or why she was so short with him. I didn't think he deserved that. I thought he deserved a lot more actually.

 

[white avenger]

.

And you're right, Spike and Buffy were clearly shown to have a deep, meaningful connection with one another. I didn't understand why she was so mad at him, or why she was so short with him. I didn't think he deserved that. I thought he deserved a lot more actually.

I've wondered if maybe she was a little put off by the fact that he didn't react to the obvious evidence (vampire scent, at the very least) of her recent escapades with Angel. Maybe she was waiting for a repeat of his reaction to Angel's return in Season 7, and when she didn't get it, she just decided to act that way. Whatever she might have actually felt for Spike, you know that it was a great ego booster to have him jealous of Angel. When he didn't make any more of it than he did, it was sort of an ego deflater for her.

 

[galactica1981]

I was disappointed as well

I always imagined that Buffy would punch Spike in the jaw for not telling he that he came back to life. I still don't get how Buffy knew he was alive (unless Andrew broke his promise to Spike and told her).

 

[white avenger]

I can't remember the exact wording, but I remember when Willow told Spike about Buffy knowing that he was back, she said something about Buffy kicking down doors until she got the answers that she was looking for. Then, the first time that we saw Giles in Season 8, we learned that he and Buffy had had some sort of falling out. It has always been my suspicion that Giles probably knew about Spike's return, possibly as soon as he returned, if Wes had informed him of the fact, or from Andrew's report when he returned with Dana. Either way, that would be a classic case of Giles taking it upon himself to make decisions and withhold information that Buffy would have definitely wanted to know.

 

[Robb Stark]

I can't remember the exact wording, but I remember when Willow told Spike about Buffy knowing that he was back, she said something about Buffy kicking down doors until she got the answers that she was looking for. Then, the first time that we saw Giles in Season 8, we learned that he and Buffy had had some sort of falling out. It has always been my suspicion that Giles probably knew about Spike's return, possibly as soon as he returned, if Wes had informed him of the fact, or from Andrew's report when he returned with Dana. Either way, that would be a classic case of Giles taking it upon himself to make decisions and withhold information that Buffy would have definitely wanted to know.

Solid theory, to be sure, but it doesn't explain why she was so cold to him. I mean, all things considered it was a little ridiculous how she acted towards him. I recall that line from Willow as well, and that seems much more in line with how the audience would expect Buffy to react.

I kind of assumed that the falling out between Buffy and Giles stemmed from a combination of what you said and from Buffy discovering how Giles acted towards both Spike and Angel in S5 of AtS.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I can't remember the exact wording, but I remember when Willow told Spike about Buffy knowing that he was back, she said something about Buffy kicking down doors until she got the answers that she was looking for. Then, the first time that we saw Giles in Season 8, we learned that he and Buffy had had some sort of falling out. It has always been my suspicion that Giles probably knew about Spike's return, possibly as soon as he returned, if Wes had informed him of the fact, or from Andrew's report when he returned with Dana. Either way, that would be a classic case of Giles taking it upon himself to make decisions and withhold information that Buffy would have definitely wanted to know.

Were they? They were apart training girls, but when they came back together they were happy and saying how said they were to have been apart, I don't recall a falling out at the start of Season 8?

I wasn't expecting a big deal from them reuniting, I definitely would have though Andrew would tell her, he'd love to know something like that and be the one to tell her.

 

[white avenger]

Were they? They were apart training girls, but when they came back together they were happy and saying how said they were to have been apart, I don't recall a falling out at the start of Season 8?

I wasn't expecting a big deal from them reuniting, I definitely would have though Andrew would tell her, he'd love to know something like that and be the one to tell her.

I got the impression when Giles contacted Faith that he had been more or less trying to rebuild the Watchers' organization, not training girls, and I'm pretty sure that there was something mentioned about him not being on the best of terms with Buffy anymore, though it's been quite awhile since I read those issues. Also, Buffy and Giles' meeting looked more like reconciliation than just reunion to me. But, again, I may be just reading more into what was there than the writers actually intended.

 

[EVIL UU]

No, not at all. At this point in Buffy's life Spike's just another ex, an annoying inconvenience at best, a creep that can't move on with his un-life at worse. She doesn't love him, she never liked him, everything that was to happen between them happened already, it's over, done, finished. Also, you can't expect Buffy to be impressed by Spike's jolly combustion, I mean, this is Buffy we're talking here about, cheap heroism doesn't exactly impress her any more. So he saved the world, big deal, she's been doing that since high school, at least twice a year. Nobody thanks her for that most of the time, don't expect her to be suddenly grateful either.

I don't understand what is Spike doing in this comic anyway, his appearance serves no purpose.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

No, not at all. At this point in Buffy's life Spike's just another ex, an annoying inconvenience at best, a creep that can't move on with his un-life at worse. She doesn't love him, she never liked him, everything that was to happen between them happened already, it's over, done, finished. Also, you can't expect Buffy to be impressed by Spike's jolly combustion, I mean, this is Buffy we're talking here about, cheap heroism doesn't exactly impress her any more. So he saved the world, big deal, she's been doing that since high school, at least twice a year. Nobody thanks her for that most of the time, don't expect her to be suddenly grateful either.

I don't understand what is Spike doing in this comic anyway, his appearance serves no purpose.

Completely agree, I don't think they know what do do with him, they can't just have him off on his own story copying Angel, but he doesn't fit in with Buffy any more cuz they can't be together. I think that played out in their initial meet up.

 

[Robb Stark]

No, not at all. At this point in Buffy's life Spike's just another ex, an annoying inconvenience at best, a creep that can't move on with his un-life at worse. She doesn't love him, she never liked him, everything that was to happen between them happened already, it's over, done, finished. Also, you can't expect Buffy to be impressed by Spike's jolly combustion, I mean, this is Buffy we're talking here about, cheap heroism doesn't exactly impress her any more. So he saved the world, big deal, she's been doing that since high school, at least twice a year. Nobody thanks her for that most of the time, don't expect her to be suddenly grateful either.

I don't understand what is Spike doing in this comic anyway, his appearance serves no purpose.

I don't know if this is fair. I think it's pretty clear that Buffy and Spike are close in S7, that they trust one another. That's not an "Angel vs. Spike" thing, I'm just calling it like I see it. If Buffy doesn't like or trust Spike, she wouldn't have been so close with him in S7.

And really, to me, it's hard to diminish Spike's sacrifice in "Chosen". I know from previous threads you've talked about your disagreement with sacrificing yourself to save others, but speaking more generally here, I don't see how people can praise Buffy for her actions in "The Gift" and then not give Spike props for essentially the same thing.

And regardless of how many times Buffy has saved the world, I still think that doing so requires, or should require, some gratitude.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I don't think its that he doesn't deserve gratitude, but more a question of why Spike should be thanked for saving the world, a lot of fans were expecting that thanks moment from their first encounter post chosen. But no one else gets thanks, Buffy and Angel never got thanked, Xander never got thanked.

If he had been thanked, for me, it would have been another example of Spike skipping the queue just to appease fans which happens a lot with Spike already.

 

[Robb Stark]

I don't think its that he doesn't deserve gratitude, but more a question of why Spike should be thanked for saving the world, a lot of fans were expecting that thanks moment from their first encounter post chosen. But no one else gets thanks, Buffy and Angel never got thanked, Xander never got thanked.

If he had been thanked, for me, it would have been another example of Spike skipping the queue just to appease fans which happens a lot with Spike already.

I agree that Angel doesn't get anywhere near the kind of respect he deserves (can't say that about Buffy though. Her team reveres her), but just because Xander or Angel don't get their props doesn't mean others who do good shouldn't either. That doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not saying I wanted Buffy to fall into his arms or anything, I didn't want that at all, but with the precedent that Buffy and Spike had together, I thought it was pretty lame that she starts giving him crap for really, no reason at all. Considering that he saved her life literally the last time she saw him, that struck me as pretty cold.

 

[brinkster130]

I thought it was pretty lame that she starts giving him crap for really, no reason at all. Considering that he saved her life literally the last time she saw him, that struck me as pretty cold.

I don't think saying she had no reason at all to be upset at him is fair. Sure, he saved her life, but he also came back to life and neglected to make any effort to contact her. I'm sure that didn't make her feel all that great about their friendship.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

And really, to me, it's hard to diminish Spike's sacrifice in "Chosen".

Oh, but I don't diminish that. No sir. I think it's the best thing Spike's ever done. Setting himself on fire? Pretty! Saving the world? Now, that's just a bonus.

No, but seriously, it's like, when a firefighter saves people from a burning building, commendable act of course but that's just his job, right? When a random, untrained, unequipped person does the same thing, that's heroism. If Spike really is a champion then heroism is in his job description. So, when Xander saves Buffy's life in "Prophecy Girl", she's impressed. A lot. She'll always be impressed, OK? She'll always love him for that. Because he was just a boy, no superpowers, no destiny, no nagging conscience, no redemption arc. When Spike saves the world, well, that's what champions do. Business as usual, nothing to see here, move along.

And regardless of how many times Buffy has saved the world, I still think that doing so requires, or should require, some gratitude.

Sure, personally, I'd buy her a beer. The rest is up to the governments.

Considering that he saved her life literally the last time she saw him, that struck me as pretty cold.

Yeah, I think Buffy is pretty cold.
[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]

he doesn't fit in with Buffy any more cuz they can't be together.

I think that they can be together, there's nothing to stop them, it's just, Buffy doesn't want that, she's not interested any more. She doesn't love him. It's over.

just to appease fans which happens a lot with Spike already.

And that would be the reason why Spike's in the comic, I think.

 

[white avenger]

I don't think saying she had no reason at all to be upset at him is fair. Sure, he saved her life, but he also came back to life and neglected to make any effort to contact her. I'm sure that didn't make her feel all that great about their friendship.

That could have been used as a reason for Buffy to be upset much better back before we knew that, at some point, she actually did find out that he was back. From that point on, Buffy was just as guilty of not contacting Spike as he was of not contacting her. She would have more reason to contact him, in fact, if for no other reason than to acknowledge and thank him for his sacrifice, which was more for her sake than to win any battle, and to simply say something like, "Thank you, and I'm glad your incineration was just temporary." Like Mayor Wilkins/First Evil said, "It's the end of the world, not the end of courtesy." Thanking someone for saving the world is just common courtesy.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

That could have been used as a reason for Buffy to be upset much better back before we knew that, at some point, she actually did find out that he was back. From that point on, Buffy was just as guilty of not contacting Spike as he was of not contacting her. She would have more reason to contact him, in fact, if for no other reason than to acknowledge and thank him for his sacrifice, which was more for her sake than to win any battle, and to simply say something like, "Thank you, and I'm glad your incineration was just temporary." Like Mayor Wilkins/First Evil said, "It's the end of the world, not the end of courtesy." Thanking someone for saving the world is just common courtesy.

So should Buffy have called Angel at the end of each season, and vice versa, they saved the world each year, singling Spike out is just a way to make Spike sound like his sacrifice was better than any of theirs.

Also (although your not going to agree) but she did thank him, she told him she loved him without meaning it, as he pointed out.

 

[Robb Stark]

So should Buffy have called Angel at the end of each season, and vice versa, they saved the world each year, singling Spike out is just a way to make Spike sound like his sacrifice was better than any of theirs.

Also (although your not going to agree) but she did thank him, she told him she loved him without meaning it, as he pointed out.

I don't really understand the need to "compare" the sacrifices of the heroes throughout the series. Spike saving the world was no "better" or "worse" than the others, Xander, Angel or Buffy herself. There's no line to get in to be told you do a hell of a job. Spike did something amazing. I don't see why, simply because someone else at some point in time in some different scenario didn't get thanked, that means that everyone else who does good deeds shouldn't be thanked as well. By that logic no one should ever be commended for the good they do, because that wouldn't be "fair" to everyone else. That's just silly to me.

However, your last paragraph I honestly hadn't considered, and I totally, completely agree with it.

 

[white avenger]

So should Buffy have called Angel at the end of each season, and vice versa, they saved the world each year, singling Spike out is just a way to make Spike sound like his sacrifice was better than any of theirs.

Also (although your not going to agree) but she did thank him, she told him she loved him without meaning it, as he pointed out.

Angel got out of the world saving business when he left Sunnydale. Buffy fought the apocalypses, Angel helped the helpless. Seasons 4 and 5 might be considered exceptions, however. But if you recall, Buffy and Angel DID have a reunion after she was resurrected in Season 6, so the precedent exists.

And as for that "I love you scene," do you REALLY want to start that old dance again? Anyhow. "I love you," and "Thank you for dying what must have been an extremely painful death in my service and in so doing, saving the world" are two entirely different things. One is affection, the other is gratitude.