Was Dark Willow partly inspired by Jean Grey aka Dark Phoenix of the X Men comics?
- Thread starter Kristine
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Yes, I think so.
However, there are many archetypical connections that can be done between characters (not necessarily means that writers wanted to do these connections or know about it, simply there are universal archetypes or characters tropes that repeat themselves)
For example:
Buffy=Supergirl
Angel=Batman (in the episode "In the Dark" of Ats, Spike talks about the Angelmobile as a parody of the Batmobile.)
Angel is also based on Batman, both as dark heroes that use gadgets and the dark city (Gotham/Los Angeles of Angel).
Angel and Bruce Wayne are physically similar and both brooding, private loners, with tragedy in their past who have dedicated their lives to altruistically helping people in need and ultimately, making their city a better place. With Angel being the head of "Angel Investigations," they're even both detectives. Also, there is a relation between bats of Batman and vampires of Angel
Spike and Drusilla=Joker and Harley Quin
Spike and Drusilla are symbolically related to the Joker and Harley Quin, I don't think that writers consciously understood the archetypal similarities of these characters.
There are different versions of the Joker, and the most similar to Spike is the version of the Suicide Squad movie of 2016. (Considering the difference of the year of production of these movie/tv show, writers of Buffy and Suicide Squad didn't copy themselves, but these archetypes of characters are similar and sometimes unconsciously are recreated)
-Spike=The Joker
-Drusilla=Harley Quinn, both women went insane with psychological problems
However, The Joker tortured Harley in order to make her insane, like Angelus tortured Drusilla to make her insane.
It can be said that The Joker=Angelus+Spike because:
The opposite of Batman is the Joker and the opposite of Angel are both Angelus and Spike differently.
Angel/Angelus dichotomy i(n its archetypical representation) is now similar to Batman/The Batman that laughs (a new evil version of Batman).
There are probably many other archetipical connections that can be made among these characters in fiction.
However, there are many archetypical connections that can be done between characters (not necessarily means that writers wanted to do these connections or know about it, simply there are universal archetypes or characters tropes that repeat themselves)
For example:
Buffy=Supergirl
Angel=Batman (in the episode "In the Dark" of Ats, Spike talks about the Angelmobile as a parody of the Batmobile.)
Angel is also based on Batman, both as dark heroes that use gadgets and the dark city (Gotham/Los Angeles of Angel).
Angel and Bruce Wayne are physically similar and both brooding, private loners, with tragedy in their past who have dedicated their lives to altruistically helping people in need and ultimately, making their city a better place. With Angel being the head of "Angel Investigations," they're even both detectives. Also, there is a relation between bats of Batman and vampires of Angel
Spike and Drusilla=Joker and Harley Quin
Spike and Drusilla are symbolically related to the Joker and Harley Quin, I don't think that writers consciously understood the archetypal similarities of these characters.
There are different versions of the Joker, and the most similar to Spike is the version of the Suicide Squad movie of 2016. (Considering the difference of the year of production of these movie/tv show, writers of Buffy and Suicide Squad didn't copy themselves, but these archetypes of characters are similar and sometimes unconsciously are recreated)
-Spike=The Joker
-Drusilla=Harley Quinn, both women went insane with psychological problems
However, The Joker tortured Harley in order to make her insane, like Angelus tortured Drusilla to make her insane.
It can be said that The Joker=Angelus+Spike because:
The opposite of Batman is the Joker and the opposite of Angel are both Angelus and Spike differently.
Angel/Angelus dichotomy i(n its archetypical representation) is now similar to Batman/The Batman that laughs (a new evil version of Batman).
There are probably many other archetipical connections that can be made among these characters in fiction.
As far as power goes, sure. Andrew even calls her Dark Phoenix at one point.
Story-wise though, the Dark Willow arc doesn't really have much in common with the Dark Phoenix storyline, especially since the original story was retconned so that the Phoenix Force actually cloned Jean Grey without anyone knowing, thereby relieving any responsibility from the real Jean's shoulders.
I feel like Dark Willow would be more akin to Scarlett Witch - power that comes from within and corrupts through grief.
Story-wise though, the Dark Willow arc doesn't really have much in common with the Dark Phoenix storyline, especially since the original story was retconned so that the Phoenix Force actually cloned Jean Grey without anyone knowing, thereby relieving any responsibility from the real Jean's shoulders.
I feel like Dark Willow would be more akin to Scarlett Witch - power that comes from within and corrupts through grief.
I would say mostly (at least for Whedon who was a HUGE X-Men fan). He talked about the Angelus arc as a kind of Dark Phoenix arc & given the incredible ratings boost, wanted to do a full-up Dark Phoenix arc as soon as possible. He even threw out Buffy having a Dark Phoenix arc. It didn't last long.
S4 set up Willow becomming powerful enough to go Dark Phoenix. S5 was the planned Dark Arc, but, the renewal & move to UPN delayed the execution.
S4 set up Willow becomming powerful enough to go Dark Phoenix. S5 was the planned Dark Arc, but, the renewal & move to UPN delayed the execution.
he thought going to the well again was a good thing? I was damn sick of threats to the world coming from internal Scooby issues making the world less safe. It practically made the Watcher's Council's case for isolating the Slayer. He'd done Angelus, then he did Faith. No one talks about it but the Initiative was essentially an institutional betrayal, and also Adam only activated after Buffy brought down the Polgara demon for them. Even season 5 had a bit of one with Ben. And it was supposed to have a bigger one
I would have loved to be in those writers rooms when they realized there wasn't a single plot point from the end of season 6 that the fans liked
I think people truly do not conceptualize how much contempt Whedon had for the overwhelming majority of his audience.
So, recycling storylines was really easy.
The writers were receiving so much adoration & were being paid really well & did not seem to notice (or care to notice) much of anything outside of their Buffy bubble.
Basically, they did it because Whedon & the other writers were considered writing Gods (remember the "Joss Whedon Is My Master Now" tshirts?) & no one was willing to call out The Emperor's New Clothes.
That was so stupid honestly. “Oh yeah she’s actually okay and just been in a weird cocoon in the space shuttle wreckage”
Anyways, yeah, you’re pretty spot on. The biggest difference is that the original Dark Phoenix saga was not a choice. Jean was manipulated over several weeks/months by an outside force (Mastermind). Willow just went fully bad because Tara got fridged.
Additionally, Willow’s dark powers never served to be extensively helpful in resolving a big threat. Sure, they would help Buffy do something, but never was she the solution to a problem like Jean/Phoenix was with the M’kraan crystal.
A
Altoz
Guest
One significant difference was that the original Dark Phoenix storyline denouement had Jean realising that her Dark Phoenix persona would kill Scott, the man she loved, if she wasn't stopped. So she brought down the curtain herself. And there it should have stayed, until the X-Force storyline brought the 'real' Jean back to life. In Willow's case, Tara had already been killed, so there was little chance that love alone could cause Darkwillow's redemption. Fortunately, the bond of Willow's friendship with Xander was sufficient to avert the apocalypse and cause her redemption at the end of Season 6. Would it have been more convincing if it had been Tara, still alive? Or would that have seemed too derivative of the Dark Phoenix X-Men storyline?
Plasma
Grr…Jim Shooter and that cocoon nonsense….
A
Altoz
Guest
There's probably somewhere in the multiverse where Darkwillow didn't relent and destroyed that Earth. It'd be interesting to speculate what that'd be like. I suspect closer to the original Marvel Zombies concept, or indeed Dark Phoenix's M'Bari onslaught, where she descends on solar systems and consumes their energy output because she now has the power of a dark goddess and no inhibitions left.
AlphaFoxtrot
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I thought Darth Rosenberg was the better interpretation. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.
I would also point out that the Phoenix Saga was only adapted by the '92 cartoon. Everything else is Jean Gray having her powers mentally blocked by Xavier, then breaking the block, then becoming corrupted by power and rage. The whole thing thing about a mystic bird god thing possessing her to some some bird man from sucking the universe into a crystal, then being seduced by a dream about Colonial Williamsburg and fighting the super friends on the moon. I get it, it's the same reason properties about Venom rarely talk about the secret wars. My point is, a Dark Phoenix isn't actually the Dark Phoenix saga.
P.S. I did think that was a clever way to deal with Apocalypse in Age of ... I mean, "I must retreat, into the future, with my vague powers. No, sometimes it's okay to smash the End of All Things against the Child of Light.
I would also point out that the Phoenix Saga was only adapted by the '92 cartoon. Everything else is Jean Gray having her powers mentally blocked by Xavier, then breaking the block, then becoming corrupted by power and rage. The whole thing thing about a mystic bird god thing possessing her to some some bird man from sucking the universe into a crystal, then being seduced by a dream about Colonial Williamsburg and fighting the super friends on the moon. I get it, it's the same reason properties about Venom rarely talk about the secret wars. My point is, a Dark Phoenix isn't actually the Dark Phoenix saga.
P.S. I did think that was a clever way to deal with Apocalypse in Age of ... I mean, "I must retreat, into the future, with my vague powers. No, sometimes it's okay to smash the End of All Things against the Child of Light.