Was Giles finding Jenny's dead body the cruelest?
- Thread starter Joshua
- Start date
Robb Stark
King in the North
If it isn't, it's right near the top.
That was an incredibly shocking moment. Even though I knew Jenny was dead, it was pretty mind-blowing seeing the lengths that Angelus went to set things up that way. I mean, I can't think of a thing he could have done to torture Giles more.
I'm trying to think of other instances that can even compare to that. It isn't the same, but the way Angelus needled and tortured Buffy mentally after he was turned was beyond horrible.
After Angelus, the only villain in Buffy or Angel who can compare to him in my eyes in terms of cruelty is Caleb, but he wasn't around nearly as much. The way he toyed with the people he killed was as sadistic as it gets. Carving out Xander's eye ranks up there for me.
But I can't think of anything in terms of scale that matches what Angelus did to Giles through Jenny.
(By the way, Angelus vs. Caleb? That would have been something I'd like to see)
That was an incredibly shocking moment. Even though I knew Jenny was dead, it was pretty mind-blowing seeing the lengths that Angelus went to set things up that way. I mean, I can't think of a thing he could have done to torture Giles more.
I'm trying to think of other instances that can even compare to that. It isn't the same, but the way Angelus needled and tortured Buffy mentally after he was turned was beyond horrible.
After Angelus, the only villain in Buffy or Angel who can compare to him in my eyes in terms of cruelty is Caleb, but he wasn't around nearly as much. The way he toyed with the people he killed was as sadistic as it gets. Carving out Xander's eye ranks up there for me.
But I can't think of anything in terms of scale that matches what Angelus did to Giles through Jenny.
(By the way, Angelus vs. Caleb? That would have been something I'd like to see)
white avenger
Caleb vs Hamilton would have been better.
BuffyElevated
Scooby
I don't know if it's THE cruelest, but it is definitely in my top 10. My God... the look of shock on Giles' face was just heartbreaking. That was the moment I decided I didn't care how much of a Bangel I was; I wanted Angel dead.
JCoatsworth
UP THE IRONS!
Wild At Heart
the moon lights his way
That whole scene just gets under your skin. I can't even describe the feeling. It's just so twisted. I don't know if I would say creep, I'd say it's one of the most tragic & sad moments.
crazysoulless
Scooby
I don't think it was even in the top 5.
Tara finding out that Willow was erasing her memory and then finding out that she continued to do it after Tara told her that it was violating her brain and after we heard her sing about how "they'll be nothing left of me" and "I can't adjust to this disgust." It was months after she was trapped in a severe psychosis by Glorificus. Her own girlfriend/lover and person she trusted most in the world messing with her sanity. And continuing to do it after she threatened to break up with her.
Faith switching bodies with Buffy against Buffy's will. Not caring that Buffy was drugged, tied up, chained up, and could've been raped, tortured, or murdered by the WC hitmen. That Faith sexually violated Buffy in the bathtub. That Faith tricked Riley into making love to her while she was in Buffy's body. "How do you want me? What nasty things have you been dying to try out on this body? Am I a bad girl? Do you want to hurt me?" She took Buffy's agency away from her, became sexually intimate with her in a way that can't get more invasive (knowing what Buffy looks like naked, feels like, actually controlling Buffy's body's orgasms, knowing how Buffy's body feels when it has sex), and let someone else have sex with Buffy's body without Buffy's consent.
Willow finding out Xander was fooling around with Cordelia. It seems like nothing but it was at a time when Willow had nearly zero confidence. Her feeling like a nobody, a loser, a nerd, inferior and weak, is what drives her the entire series, it is why she becomes addicted and out of control with magick. She had been best friends with Xander since kindergarten, he was her closest friend, and she was in love with him and even secretly planned their wedding. And there he was with the physically prettiest and most popular girl in school, the girl that had been mean to her for years to the point that they created a We Hate Cordelia club. "You'd rather be with someone you hate than to be with me."
Joyce in Gingerbread. She was told by two spirits to hurt the bad witches that killed them. She was not mind controlled. All that it took to get some common sense into the mob was to show them what the kids really looked like; an ugly giant demon. And yet she chlorophorms her only child, even commented on how emotionally easy it was to do so. She lets her child get tied to a stake. She actually gets a burning torch and lights the kindling surrounding her daughter on fire. She was going to burn Buffy to death, murder her 17 year old daughter. She knew that Buffy spent years risking her life to save the innocent and destroy the forces of darkness. She tried to kill her because she couldn't accept that Buffy wasn't what she wanted her to be. "What I wanted was a happy normal daughter. Instead I got a Slayer."
Xander and the infamous lie. He knew that it would lead to either Buffy having to kill the only man she had ever loved or sending that man to Hell, possibly for eternity. His jealousy and pettiness towards Angel ("I hated Angel long before you all jumped on the bandwagon so I think I deserve something for not saying I told you so") nearly destroyed Buffy (the grief and guilt) and meant 100 years of torture for Angel.
Tara finding out that Willow was erasing her memory and then finding out that she continued to do it after Tara told her that it was violating her brain and after we heard her sing about how "they'll be nothing left of me" and "I can't adjust to this disgust." It was months after she was trapped in a severe psychosis by Glorificus. Her own girlfriend/lover and person she trusted most in the world messing with her sanity. And continuing to do it after she threatened to break up with her.
Faith switching bodies with Buffy against Buffy's will. Not caring that Buffy was drugged, tied up, chained up, and could've been raped, tortured, or murdered by the WC hitmen. That Faith sexually violated Buffy in the bathtub. That Faith tricked Riley into making love to her while she was in Buffy's body. "How do you want me? What nasty things have you been dying to try out on this body? Am I a bad girl? Do you want to hurt me?" She took Buffy's agency away from her, became sexually intimate with her in a way that can't get more invasive (knowing what Buffy looks like naked, feels like, actually controlling Buffy's body's orgasms, knowing how Buffy's body feels when it has sex), and let someone else have sex with Buffy's body without Buffy's consent.
Willow finding out Xander was fooling around with Cordelia. It seems like nothing but it was at a time when Willow had nearly zero confidence. Her feeling like a nobody, a loser, a nerd, inferior and weak, is what drives her the entire series, it is why she becomes addicted and out of control with magick. She had been best friends with Xander since kindergarten, he was her closest friend, and she was in love with him and even secretly planned their wedding. And there he was with the physically prettiest and most popular girl in school, the girl that had been mean to her for years to the point that they created a We Hate Cordelia club. "You'd rather be with someone you hate than to be with me."
Joyce in Gingerbread. She was told by two spirits to hurt the bad witches that killed them. She was not mind controlled. All that it took to get some common sense into the mob was to show them what the kids really looked like; an ugly giant demon. And yet she chlorophorms her only child, even commented on how emotionally easy it was to do so. She lets her child get tied to a stake. She actually gets a burning torch and lights the kindling surrounding her daughter on fire. She was going to burn Buffy to death, murder her 17 year old daughter. She knew that Buffy spent years risking her life to save the innocent and destroy the forces of darkness. She tried to kill her because she couldn't accept that Buffy wasn't what she wanted her to be. "What I wanted was a happy normal daughter. Instead I got a Slayer."
Xander and the infamous lie. He knew that it would lead to either Buffy having to kill the only man she had ever loved or sending that man to Hell, possibly for eternity. His jealousy and pettiness towards Angel ("I hated Angel long before you all jumped on the bandwagon so I think I deserve something for not saying I told you so") nearly destroyed Buffy (the grief and guilt) and meant 100 years of torture for Angel.
itssmiletime
Potential
Definitively one of the cruelest- Angelus went clearly out of his way- the roses, the candles, the wine, the music. I remember rewatching that scene and knowing I can't watch Angel for a while. Out of all the ''Passion'' events- killing Willow's goldfish (why?), his conversation with Joyce, murder of Jenny, drawings of Buffy and Joyce.... Giles was by far, the cruelest.
The only other thing in BTVS that absolutely chilled me out was Spike's monologue to Buffy at the Bronze in ''Dead Things'' which certified what a disgusting creep Spike is.
If Angel counts... the whole entire idea that Wolfram & Hart has that you are forever serving the senior partners eternally is so warped and cruel. Being ghosts, doing their bidding... was just so cruel considering a firm like Wolfram & Hart had the resources to just hire anyone they wanted as a replacement.
The only other thing in BTVS that absolutely chilled me out was Spike's monologue to Buffy at the Bronze in ''Dead Things'' which certified what a disgusting creep Spike is.
If Angel counts... the whole entire idea that Wolfram & Hart has that you are forever serving the senior partners eternally is so warped and cruel. Being ghosts, doing their bidding... was just so cruel considering a firm like Wolfram & Hart had the resources to just hire anyone they wanted as a replacement.
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crazysoulless
Scooby
Now that I am thinking about it, there are so many cruel things characters have done to other characters on BtVS that we would need to list the top 25. We should have another thread for that!
What Angelus did to Drusilla, taking an innocent piteous girl with a divine gift and trying to convince her she's sinning and evil, murdering everyone she loves until in grief and survivor's guilt and terror she tries to find salavation and safety in a convent, only to turn her into a soulless demon the day she was to become a nun, instead of being "a Bride of Christ" she had her virginity taken by her tormentor.
Spike telling Buffy she "came back wrong" and then spending the next several months making sure she knows she is a "demon" and "belongs in the darkness" and is a "creature of the dark." She spent years believing that being the Slayer was destroying her humanity, turning her to stone, messing with her sanity, and actively fought against the dark aspects of the Slayer, hoping it didn't mean she was a demon or killer. And then when Spike knows that the resurrection has left her feeling dead inside, suicidally depressed, as if she is living in Hell, more lost and isolated than she has ever been, he decides to gloat and tell her she "came back less human" and that there is "something wrong" with her.
Parker pretending for weeks to have feelings for Buffy only to dump her once she'd decided to be vulnerable and take a risk (she's a worrier and always thinks of consequences) and have sex with him (her second time ever). He even tries to convince her that it was her fault. And he later brags about how he manipulated and used her. Many fans feel Buffy was "mopey" and "gloomy" over what he did for too long. But she felt sexually used, dirty, foolish.
What Angelus did to Drusilla, taking an innocent piteous girl with a divine gift and trying to convince her she's sinning and evil, murdering everyone she loves until in grief and survivor's guilt and terror she tries to find salavation and safety in a convent, only to turn her into a soulless demon the day she was to become a nun, instead of being "a Bride of Christ" she had her virginity taken by her tormentor.
Spike telling Buffy she "came back wrong" and then spending the next several months making sure she knows she is a "demon" and "belongs in the darkness" and is a "creature of the dark." She spent years believing that being the Slayer was destroying her humanity, turning her to stone, messing with her sanity, and actively fought against the dark aspects of the Slayer, hoping it didn't mean she was a demon or killer. And then when Spike knows that the resurrection has left her feeling dead inside, suicidally depressed, as if she is living in Hell, more lost and isolated than she has ever been, he decides to gloat and tell her she "came back less human" and that there is "something wrong" with her.
Parker pretending for weeks to have feelings for Buffy only to dump her once she'd decided to be vulnerable and take a risk (she's a worrier and always thinks of consequences) and have sex with him (her second time ever). He even tries to convince her that it was her fault. And he later brags about how he manipulated and used her. Many fans feel Buffy was "mopey" and "gloomy" over what he did for too long. But she felt sexually used, dirty, foolish.
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I
itssmiletime
Agree with all three of them. I hate it when people attack Buffy in those two instances, it's definitely not her fault. People really do underestimate how psychologically, you can severly torture someone.