Was Giles originally supposed to die in the finale?

[Kendra371]

Watching "Grave" it looks as if Giles was going to die, yet when Xander stops her from ending the world he pops up from the ground as if he was fine. Was Giles supposed to die and a change in script change for fan service? or did I miss something? lol

 

[Lyri]

Given Giles' role in S7 in bringing the Potentials to Sunnydale and helping Willow overcome her magic addiction, I doubt very much that there was any sort of plan to kill Giles off.

Also, it's not often that Joss will do any sort of fan service. He always says 'give them what they need, not what they want', so if he did want to kill Giles off at that point, I think he would have done it.

 

[Kendra371]

Given Giles' role in S7 in bringing the Potentials to Sunnydale and helping Willow overcome her magic addiction, I doubt very much that there was any sort of plan to kill Giles off.

Also, it's not often that Joss will do any sort of fan service. He always says 'give them what they need, not what they want', so if he did want to kill Giles off at that point, I think he would have done it.

I guess thats true, but then why make that scene so over dramatic with Giles nearly fainting and Anya begging him to not die? It wasn't till after Xander stopped Willow he popped up perfectly fine. Was he magically tied to Willow when she drained his powers? I don't get it.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I got the feeling that if Willow had held onto that power, and kept it that dark place, Giles would have died--from a plot perspective. From a casting perspective, I don't think Giles has ever been meant to properly die.

I don't know if you've kept up with Joss' books, but Angel's story of the moment is exploring Giles' past. Joss actually wrote about Giles' past many years ago, when he was considering developing a Giles spinoff for the BBC.

Joss wrote a story way back when about Giles' grandmother, who was a legendary Watcher. Angel has recently found out that Giles inherited a magical predisposition from that side of his family. Outside of superbeings, Giles was considered one of the top human "mages" around. As has been said often recently, "Giles' soul was steeped in magic." Taking all of that into consideration, the small bit of magic that Willow stole from Giles that was actually his own, was probably still bound to his soul. The fact that Giles' soul was bound to earth's magic is the key storyline of Angel & Faith's arc right now!

 

[Mischlings]

Taking all of that into consideration, the small bit of magic that Willow stole from Giles that was actually his own, was probably still bound to his soul. The fact that Giles' soul was bound to earth's magic is the key storyline of Angel & Faith's arc right now!

... That's actually a kind of brilliant theory, and I'd never even thought about that before, given that I barely remember specifics about the end of Season 6, but now that you've said that, I'm going to definitely look out for any clues that could point in that direction.

I don't think that they intended to kill Giles - even though he wanted to spend more time with his family, I don't think that he wanted to leave the show completely, and the plot in Season 7 makes me think that they definitely intended to keep him around, even if they never entirely figured out what best to do with him.

 

[VaderSpike24]

In reference to Lyri's quote above, Joss Whedon is not entriely a "Give them what they need, not what they want" guy:
Spike, Anya, Wesley, Oz, and Faith all got to live longer than they were planned to because they were so popular with fans. That is fan service right there. If Joss felt that killing one or more of them off was nessecary for his show, he would have done it reguardless of what the fans say. He won't let Bangel alone, either. He got them together, broke them up, but keeps reuniting them all the time. Look at the crap that happened in the comics last year.
On the other hand, he does the exact opposite of fan service in other examples:
People hate Dawn. He kept her around.
People don't like Kennedy. He kept her around.
People loved Tara. He killed her.
People loved Spike and Anya. He killed them.
So, it seems like Mr. Whedon does fan service at certain times, and does what he wants reguardless of fans at other times. So that would make him a standard screenwriter I'd say. Not doing his show based entirely on fans, but also showing them that he is listening to their ideas and agrees with some of them.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

In reference to Lyri's quote above, Joss Whedon is not entriely a "Give them what they need, not what they want" guy:
Spike, Anya, Wesley, Oz, and Faith all got to live longer than they were planned to because they were so popular with fans. That is fan service right there. If Joss felt that killing one or more of them off was nessecary for his show, he would have done it reguardless of what the fans say. He won't let Bangel alone, either. He got them together, broke them up, but keeps reuniting them all the time. Look at the crap that happened in the comics last year.
On the other hand, he does the exact opposite of fan service in other examples:
People hate Dawn. He kept her around.
People don't like Kennedy. He kept her around.
People loved Tara. He killed her.
People loved Spike and Anya. He killed them.
So, it seems like Mr. Whedon does fan service at certain times, and does what he wants reguardless of fans at other times. So that would make him a standard screenwriter I'd say. Not doing his show based entirely on fans, but also showing them that he is listening to their ideas and agrees with some of them.

Good point, but I'm not going to give you the he killed Spike bit, because Spike didn't stay dead for a single episode 😛

According to James Marsters, Spike's general existence was due to Joss giving in to colleagues/fans/network. JM said Joss told him from day one that he disliked the Spike character, and barely tolerated Angel, because he thought sexy romantic vampires were a stupid plot device.

Honestly, I think Joss killed off Tara for the same reason he killed off Joyce & Cordelia. Yes, there were other reasons, but from a writing standpoint, those three had matured to a point that they were all "purely good."

Tara overcame her shyness & insecurities, dead.
Cordy became a selfless superhero, dead.
Joyce finally cam to terms with Buffy's lifestyle, and supported her through it, dead.

I never hated Dawn or Connor, but let's be honest, they were brought in because the shows were airing on networks appealing to teens & tweens, and the casts were getting older. MANY long running shows have used this plot device. More traditional shows it's a cousin coming to live with the main characters, or a new child.

Joss handled Dawn & Connor well though, because they didn't take too much screen time from the stars. It's funny, because on TV, Connor was terrible, Kartheiser openly criticizes the character & show, and Charisma Carpenter considers her arc with him as the low point of her career. But in AtF and A&F, Connor became very compelling.

Dawn on the other hand adds little to the plot of BS8 & 9 in my opinion...

Wesley I don't understand personally, yes he returned for AtF, but he's just plain dead now, and he's sorely missed in my opinion. The fact that Joss said Wesley would've been resurrected if Angel came back to TV leaves me wondering why he hasn't come back.

Talking about the 'verse overall as-of 2013, I do think the quality would be much better if we saw more of the original core characters--specifically Buffy interacting with Xander & Willow, more broadly, larger roles for Gunn & Connor, and the return of Wes.

As for Giles, fan service or not, I knew from the second Angel snapped Giles' neck, he would be back ASAP. It was obvious Joss was full of it when he claimed Giles was gone because he didn't gel with the comics. That's pretty indisputable now, since his role at the moment is more pivotal than he ever had been in the TV series! It doesn't really matter if he's fully resurrected as long as he stays a constant presence in the stories.

 

[VisionGirl]

Honestly, I think Joss killed off Tara for the same reason he killed off Joyce & Cordelia. Yes, there were other reasons, but from a writing standpoint, those three had matured to a point that they were all "purely good."

Tara overcame her shyness & insecurities, dead.
Cordy became a selfless superhero, dead.
Joyce finally cam to terms with Buffy's lifestyle, and supported her through it, dead.

I know this is going off-topic, but I think there are other more subtle (possibly unintentional) reasons for those characters' deaths. From a favorite article ("And Yet": The Limits of Buffy Feminism):

The adult women have a far lesser chance of attaining and maintaining insider status, or of finding the ability to aid meaningfully in the fight against evil, which is the most important feminist activity of the show. The show's final empowering images suggest that past a certain age, feminism ceases to be an option and women must cede their fight to the next generation. This situation is far worse for those characters and actresses whose bodies come under scrutiny or criticism, whose bodies seem more "womanly" or mature, or whose reproductive potential interferes with the youth narrative; they are shown as helpless counterpoints to the main characters and are punished for their abjected bodies. Through an examination of adult female characters on the show such as Joyce, Cordelia (as portrayed on Angel), and Darla (both shows), we aim to show the limited places available for a mature adult woman in the Buffyverse. This is consistent, we contend, in the portrayals of even minor female characters. Aside from the show's focus on youth, there are also consequences to the show's treatment of women's and girls' bodies.
[Tara is also discussed in this article]

http://slayageonline.com/essays/slayage29/St_Louis_Riggs.htm

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I know this is going off-topic, but I think there are other more subtle (possibly unintentional) reasons for those characters' deaths. From a favorite article ("And Yet": The Limits of Buffy Feminism):
http://slayageonline.com/essays/slayage29/St_Louis_Riggs.htm

I personally think Joss/Marti/Jane/David just struggled to write characters who were purely good 😛

It's a hard thing to do. I certainly wouldn't consider it a gender issue though, one could argue an age issue in general. Look at Giles, on paper he should be extremely formidable, yet he even joked about constantly being the one who's knocked out. Outside of the Ripper-centric episodes, he's a pushover, despite having more combat training than any of the characters, and being considered one of the more talented fully human wizards. Compare him to Wesley, who by AS4 was an extremely formidable fighter, even in AS2, Wes was useful in combat.

I would imagine Tony Head or Nicky Brendon in real life would be more physically capable than the characters they portrayed.

I used to watch Stargate SG-1 and made the same argument about the Daniel Jackson character. He was the "nerd" character, which worked most of the time, because the others had military training, and he was just an academic--also many of their enemies had super powers.

The only episode that came across as ridiculous was one where the characters were at a normal restaurant, and a group of normal guys started to pick on Daniel. First of all, how often do a group of middle-aged men randomly bully a stranger because he's wearing glasses? Secondly, in real life, the actor is a 6'1 amateur hockey player in his mid-30s, with bulging muscles.

It was just a cringe-worthy scene. That dynamic worked in the other 200+ episodes because they were super-beings who tossed Daniel around, but the writers were so used to writing him that way, that they didn't think about how silly that setup was in a normal setting.

I would say that Dawn, Fred, and Cordy were similar impetuses to Xander & Giles. It was fine early on, because Buffy has powers, so obviously she'd be stronger than Giles or Xander by miles. It became silly when Cordy (pre-Jasmine), Fred (pre-Illyria), and Dawn seemed to be able to handle a vampire more easily than Xander or Giles.

You could make the argument that Angel trained Cordelia, so she should be more formidable than Xander, but what would the excuse be for them appearing significantly stronger than Giles--a man trained to fight demons since childhood of seemingly an above average fitness & build?

Just think about it in human terms, would anyone think for a second that Michelle Trachtenberg a 15 year-old girl of a slight-build could physically overpower Tony Head? Then consider in terms of their characters, she had a handful of self-defense lessons from Buffy, and Giles had been trained in combat for years, and is the one who taught Buffy most of her martial arts techniques!

 

[Zeppelin92]

I feel like part of it is understood that Giles is a Watcher not the Slayer. He is there to guide Buffy and train her not fight her battles for her. He can obviously hold his own in my opinion. He was able to escape being axed by the Bringers which pretty much proves he's still got what it takes.
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The original question though: Giles was given that pure magick essence by the Coven. It wasn't technically his own and Willow took all of that power at once from Giles which left him severely weakened and near death.

 

[Anya2012]

Taking all of that into consideration, the small bit of magic that Willow stole from Giles that was actually his own, was probably still bound to his soul. The fact that Giles' soul was bound to earth's magic is the key storyline of Angel & Faith's arc right now!

Brilliant theory, I never would have thought that.

 

[Cordynharm]

Re: Giles dying originally In the finale. He filled willow with his magic and that of the coven which was good magic. I think that he would have died if he'd passed on before the good magic grew in willow. As it grew and Xander reached her the good magic took away her dark magic used to kill Giles and the good magic left in him (he still had some as he knew psychically when Xander stepped into the fray to stop willow), overpowered the dark magic willow shot into him and the good kept him hanging in there till he received medical help. Maybe. Lol

Joyce? She was killed purely for the reason that for glory to work she would have killed Joyce to get BUFFY to tell her where the key is. A protagonists journey can't be fully realised without the mother/father/mentor figures dying so they have to bear the full responsibility and not fall back on their help. Joyce needed to die for dawn to be her full responsibility for dawn from then on in the shows mythology, and in the metaphor too that BUFFY had to now be the adult and pay house bills/look after a child as a parent (who was a teenager rather than a baby she had had herself as babies in the show would suck and dawn was more fully realised obviously.


Obi wan kenobii, yoda, dumbledore, Sirius black, other examples in this in literature of characters dying to make the protagonist have to do the last bit on his own and become the true hero.

Giles the father figure leaving was needed to so storyline it works well with the show. I didnt want to lose Giles but what would he have done in season six? Where could he have gone as a character and would willow have gone fully dark if he'd stayed (she lost her father figure too). would BUFFY have entered a destructive relationship with a soulless vampire if giles was there?