Was it naive to think Buffy was in hell?

[JCoatsworth]

I don't think they meant the actual hell, like the one the devil lives in. They just meant some other dimension that Buffy's soul got trapped in.

 

[FlowerPower]

I'm just floored by how many people call Willow "selfish" or "power-hungry" for the resurrection. If power-hunger was the goal, I would think that Willow would have wanted to hold onto her Boss of Us title instead of bringing Buffy back. If making an easier, more fun life for herself was the goal, I would think that pulling a Giles and leaving the hellmouth and maybe even rejecting taking custody of Dawn would be a better way of going about that. Not going through a dangerous and incredibly painful spell chock full of unpleasantness for Willow from vomiting the snake to killing the deer

I mean, you did all see Willow knowingly going through cuts and snake vomiting and tremendous pain? You saw her breakdown in the woods when she was falling-down sick when she didn't have the energy to stand, let alone put on an Emmy-winning performance of noblity, about how she failed Buffy? You saw her reject Anya's "Let's stay safe in the Magic Box" plan when the horde of demons were taking over Sunnydale and leaving to fight the demosn and find and protect Dawn? Sheesh!

 

[Dagenspear]

And no one else was on board at all? So, it was only Willow that wanted Buffy to come back, in your opinion? I don't think that's fair. Tara, Willow, Anya, and Xander all banded together to bring her back. Willow didn't force them into anything. They all decided they wanted her back, and the other three declared Willow the "boos" of them anyway.

I didn't say that. It obvious that there is some clear hesitation among the group. But Willow insists upon it.

And it has nothing to do with the fact that the love of her life was shot to death right in front of her? It's not only that she failed. It's that Warren forced Tara to die, and not ever be able to come back. That's where the revenge part comes in.

That fact that she loved Tara only made the loss of power and control a harsher blow than it was with Buffy. It was no longer her best friend that died. It was the person she was in love with.

Her body wasn't, no. But her soul was. I don't believe they were incredibly stupid in thinking she could be in a hell dimension. She could have been in any dimension.

People do stupid things when they grieve. Everyone grieves differently. That's how it goes.

Yeah, but most of us don't grieve by causing immenent danger to the world by tearing a rift through it and RIPPING someone out of the underworld. Willow gave no thought to that. She gave no thought to the reprucussions. Her grieving is no excuse for her to endanger the very scale of good and evil.

Buffy had moved on. And Willow couldn't allow that. She thought it was her RIGHT to bring Buffy back. She screwed with the natural course of life and death. She played God. Like Giles said, she was rank, arrogant amateur, she was little more than child with no sense of responsibility for the powers she possessed.

---------- Post added at 10:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 AM ----------

I'm just floored by how many people call Willow "selfish" or "power-hungry" for the resurrection. If power-hunger was the goal, I would think that Willow would have wanted to hold onto her Boss of Us title instead of bringing Buffy back. If making an easier, more fun life for herself was the goal, I would think that pulling a Giles and leaving the hellmouth and maybe even rejecting taking custody of Dawn would be a better way of going about that. Not going through a dangerous and incredibly painful spell chock full of unpleasantness for Willow from vomiting the snake to killing the deer

I mean, you did all see Willow knowingly going through cuts and snake vomiting and tremendous pain? You saw her breakdown in the woods when she was falling-down sick when she didn't have the energy to stand, let alone put on an Emmy-winning performance of noblity, about how she failed Buffy? You saw her reject Anya's "Let's stay safe in the Magic Box" plan when the horde of demons were taking over Sunnydale and leaving to fight the demosn and find and protect Dawn? Sheesh!

She WAS not power-hungry. She WAS control hungry. She needed to control everything. Even the natural course of life and death.

 

[Icarium]

I'm just floored by how many people call Willow "selfish" or "power-hungry" for the resurrection. If power-hunger was the goal, I would think that Willow would have wanted to hold onto her Boss of Us title instead of bringing Buffy back. If making an easier, more fun life for herself was the goal, I would think that pulling a Giles and leaving the hellmouth and maybe even rejecting taking custody of Dawn would be a better way of going about that. Not going through a dangerous and incredibly painful spell chock full of unpleasantness for Willow from vomiting the snake to killing the deer

Word. I bash Willow for just about everything else she did that season but in what universe risking your life to bring your friend back is selfish?

Yeah, but most of us don't grieve by causing immenent danger to the world by tearing a rift through it and RIPPING someone out of the underworld. Willow gave no thought to that. She gave no thought to the reprucussions. Her grieving is no excuse for her to endanger the very scale of good and evil.

Only if you believe Giles's nonsense about resurrection spells endangering the world which was never mentioned before or since. Let's just say that I don't think Giles knows more about magic at that point than Wilow, let alone more than Willow, Tara and Anya, none of whom ever mentioned that possibility. Ignoring Giles, the main danger would be as Willow put it "making Buffy deader"

Buffy had moved on.

And yet, she seems to have no problem living right now. And has saved quite a few people since she was resurrected. She will die one day and for all we know she might well end up in heaven once again. So let's all lynch Willow for giving her friend the chance to live past the ripe old age of 20. Since it's totally natural for people to commit suicide at 20. If tomorrow science comes up with a way of brining people back no one should ever use it because everybody dies when they have experienced everything and have nothing more to live for. Oh, wait..

 

[Dagenspear]

Giles couldn't be bothered to stay in Sunnydale to help Buffy when she considered the world hell. Heck even without the benefit of hindsight, Giles couldn't be bothered to stay in Sunnydale to fight demons and be an adult guardian for Dawn while the much younger Scoobs stepped up. Giles was hardcore selfish in S6 and I can't take his lack of using powers that he doesn't have to bring back Buffy as the ultimate opposition to the team of Willow/Xander/Tara/Anya going through with the resurrection because they believed there was a legitimate chance that Buffy could be in hell.

I have tons of sympathy for Willow thinking that Buffy is in hell. I do think that her grief motivated her to not consider alternative possibilities of Buffy being in heaven. However considering that her method of getting a resurrection after Buffy being dead for three months was to count on her power and sacrifices to be impressive enough to successfully beg Osiris to bring Buffy back, it makes sense that Willow, maybe, wouldn't have had the ability to confirm what dimension Buffy was in. I know that people were hopping in and out of portals real easily on Angel but that doesn't seem to be the case on Buffy when it took a major production for even a hell goddess to get home.

I go with Icarium's notion that the strong risk that Buffy could be in hell motivated the Scoobs into fast action, particularly since their experience with hell dimensions tells them that time moves more quickly there. If the Scoobies were "naive", it was their belief that Buffy would want to choose life. I think that Willow and the others did whitewash Buffy's suicide in The Gift into The Most Perfectest Sacrifice and ignored the idea that maybe Buffy was fed up with life.

You're biast. I love Willow. But I see the reality of who her character WAS.

Also, Giles was being a good parent by leaving. The bird needs to be kicked out of the nest eventually. Giles being there made life easier for Buffy, so she wouldn't have to deal with her life and thus, not work through her sh*t, and THUS, not get any better. Buffy needed live life on her own. Doing this is never a perfect logic, but, Giles wasn't being selfish. If anything I'd say it's THE MOST self-less thing he's done on the show. He did what was best for Buffy. NOT what he wanted to do. Which was take care of her. That's not what she needed though. And Giles knew that. It's just good parenting.

 

[Icarium]

You're biast. I love Willow. But I see the reality of who her character WAS.

Also, Giles was being a good parent by leaving. The bird needs to be kicked out of the nest eventually. Giles being there made life easier for Buffy, so she wouldn't have to deal with her life and thus, not work through her sh*t, and THUS, not get any better. Buffy needed live life on her own. Doing this is never a perfect logic, but, Giles wasn't being selfish. If anything I'd say it's THE MOST self-less thing he's done on the show. He did what was best for Buffy. NOT what he wanted to do. Which was take care of her. That's not what she needed though. And Giles knew that. It's just good parenting.

Yes, it's good parenting when a parent leaves their suicidally depressed child to deal all on her own. You totally convinced me.

And there was no problem whatsoever with Giles leaving Willow too after witnessing that she was losing the plot and lecturing her a few times about that. It's not as if he had any experience in abusing magic and getting people hurt in the process. Oh, wait...

And it's not like he could have done what he did in Tough Love - saying no to Buffy without running to hide thousands of miles away. I think my sarcasm detector just broke. 🙂

 

[Dagenspear]

Word. I bash Willow for just about everything else she did that season but in what universe risking your life to bring your friend back is selfish?



Only if you believe Giles's nonsense about resurrection spells endangering the world which was never mentioned before or since. Let's just say that I don't think Giles knows more about magic at that point than Wilow, let alone more than Willow, Tara and Anya, none of whom ever mentioned that possibility. Ignoring Giles, the main danger would be as Willow put it "making Buffy deader"



And yet, she seems to have no problem living right now. And has saved quite a few people since she was resurrected. She will die one day and for all we know she might well end up in heaven once again. So let's all lynch Willow for giving her friend the chance to live past the ripe old age of 20. Since it's totally natural for people to commit suicide at 20. If tomorrow science comes up with a way of brining people back no one should ever use it because everybody dies when they have experienced everything and have nothing more to live for. Oh, wait..

Buffy said so herself. She was done. It was her time. And Willow couldn't allow that. You can't screw with the natural order of life and death just because you don't like where you THINK they ended up, or because it's incoveniant for your feelings. People die. It happens. What Willow did was wrong. Also, Willow had a lot of power. It doesn't mean she knew ANYTHING about it. She was a child weilding a sword when she didn't know how to use. Would you give a child a gun? No. And that's what Willow was. And kid using something she didn't completely or fully understand. Am I the only one who's forgotten that Willow ressurecting Buffy is what gave The First the opening it needed to DESTROY THE SLAYER LINE? Or, are we just ignoring that?

---------- Post added at 11:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 AM ----------

Yes, it's good parenting when a parent leaves their suicidally depressed child to deal all on her own. You totally convinced me.

And there was no problem whatsoever with Giles leaving Willow too after witnessing that she was losing the plot and lecturing her a few times about that. It's not as if he had any experience in abusing magic and getting people hurt in the process. Oh, wait...

And it's not like he could have done what he did in Tough Love - saying no to Buffy without running to hide thousands of miles away. I think my sarcasm detector just broke. 🙂

I don't think Giles had any REAL idea how bad off Willow was. And what exactly was Giles supposed to do? Coddle Buffy until she just got fed up and just offed herself. Taking care of her the whole way wasn't going to help her get ANY better. It was a risk leaving Buffy alone, sure, but it was either that or do nothing to TRULY help her. And maybe Giles leaving wasn't the best move to make, maybe he could have stayed and still tried to help Buffy take care of herself, but, like I said, parenting is never a perfect logic.

 

[Icarium]

Buffy said so herself. She was done

She also went catatonic in The Weight of the World, should Willow have let her stay so?

It was her time.

It was? Are we talking about the same show where defying fate was pretty much the Scooby gang's motto? I guess Xander should have gone to the dance in Prophecy Girl instead of saving Buffy since it was supposedly "her time" then too.

Also, Willow had a lot of power. It doesn't mean she knew ANYTHING about it.

She knew enough to succeed in doing the impossible and saving everybody's lives on quite a few occasions. You can't have it both ways - either Willow is competent enough that Giles leaving her study magic all on her own wasn't a moronic move or they are both "rank amateurs: in which case whatever Giles says about magic might well be far from the truth. And I see you conveniently ignored Tara and Anya (who was casting spells a thousand years before Giles was even born) agreed with Willow's plan.

Am I the only one who's forgotten that Willow ressurecting Buffy is what gave The First the opening it needed to DESTROY THE SLAYER LINE?

That's what The First says. Doesn't mean it's true. And he might have even referred to Prophecy Girl (or maybe not, I don't remember much of S7). Still, there are things you can't predict.

I don't think Giles had any REAL idea how bad off Willow was.

So why the lectures then? He thought her resurrecting Buffy was incredibly stupid, he witnessed her doing mind wipes, he went on and on about how she was relying on magic too much (All The Way). What else did he need, a copy of the Villains script?

. Taking care of her the whole way wasn't going to help her get ANY better.

There is a middle ground between doing everything for Buffy and doing nothing, you know.

 

[Willow My Love]

I didn't say that. It obvious that there is some clear hesitation among the group. But Willow insists upon it.

And I quote, "I base this entire issue on Willow's selfishness," you based the whole thing on Willow. There were other people that wanted her back.

Yeah, but most of us don't grieve by causing immenent danger to the world by tearing a rift through it and RIPPING someone out of the underworld. Willow gave no thought to that. She gave no thought to the reprucussions. Her grieving is no excuse for her to endanger the very scale of good and evil.

Key words? "Most of us." Had I been able to bring my father back from the dead and have him be exactly as he was, I would have in my grief. I realize now that that wouldn't be fair to him, but I would have brought him back then.

Buffy had moved on. And Willow couldn't allow that. She thought it was her RIGHT to bring Buffy back. She screwed with the natural course of life and death. She played God. Like Giles said, she was rank, arrogant amateur, she was little more than child with no sense of responsibility for the powers she possessed.

How could Willow honestly know that Buffy WASN'T in a hell dimension? She, all too possibly, COULD have been there. She didn't think it was her right. It was her duty in her mind. Were Willow trapped somewhere like that, Buffy would do anything to get her back, and Willow knew that. Xander even said they didn't know she wasn't in Hell. It was possible. I'm not talking religion here. I'm saying her soul was torn through dimensions, not that she was "in the underworld." I don't believe she actually was. She swan-dived into a mystical portal. She could have been in the dimension of perpetual Tuesdays for all they knew. And let's face it, as much as I like Tuesdays, I'd wanna get out of there pronto.

 

[FlowerPower]

Buffy said so herself. She was done. It was her time. And Willow couldn't allow that. You can't screw with the natural order of life and death just because you don't like where you THINK they ended up, or because it's incoveniant for your feelings. People die. It happens. What Willow did was wrong. Also, Willow had a lot of power. It doesn't mean she knew ANYTHING about it. She was a child weilding a sword when she didn't know how to use. Would you give a child a gun? No. And that's what Willow was. And kid using something she didn't completely or fully understand. Am I the only one who's forgotten that Willow ressurecting Buffy is what gave The First the opening it needed to DESTROY THE SLAYER LINE? Or, are we just ignoring that?

---------- Post added at 11:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 AM ----------


I don't think Giles had any REAL idea how bad off Willow was. And what exactly was Giles supposed to do? Coddle Buffy until she just got fed up and just offed herself. Taking care of her the whole way wasn't going to help her get ANY better. It was a risk leaving Buffy alone, sure, but it was either that or do nothing to TRULY help her. And maybe Giles leaving wasn't the best move to make, maybe he could have stayed and still tried to help Buffy take care of herself, but, like I said, parenting is never a perfect logic.

First, NO ONE predicted that the slayer line would be left vulnerable because of the resurrection. Not Giles. Not Anya. Not Tara. I don't remember any fans predicting it in S6/early S7. That's like blaming the inventors of the car/internal cumbustion engine for climate change. Blaming the creators of high fructose corn syrup for obesity.
As for the "You can't reverse death" argument, where does that rule come from? I know that, per the show, Wiccans believe that. However, how is it a moral imperitive when it is possible to ask a god to reverse death and it happens? It is physically possible to bring back some people in this 'verse and the morals of it are a subject of debate, not a clear wrong like killing people.

Now, Buffy never said that she was "done" in S5. Here's where the naivette of the Scoobs come in. I could read in S5 that Buffy was fed up with life period and this opportunity to take Dawn's place worked for Buffy's "protect Dawn" and "suicidal" instincts. However the gang did put Buffy on a pedestal. They thought that Buffy loved life and enjoyed being a heroine and that she would love to be brought back to save more people and watch Dawn grow up and be with them. They thought that like Buffy said at 16, she didn't want to die, and sacrificing herself was some horrible loss that Buffy had to endure to save Dawn. The Scoobs were wrong but it's because they had the best intentions/view of Buffy which *is* sympathetic.

As for Giles, he was being paid to be Buffy's Watcher. Buffy begged him to stay. Giles knew perfectly damn well that he was leaving the other twenty-something/pre-teen Scoobs (minus Spike and Anya) to help Buffy slay or watch Dawn. Why couldn't he, with his experience and knowlege and wisdom and financial means, participate in that? Me thinks its because life is more pleasant, calm and easy in Merry Ole' England (shown by the horsies and pastures of Lessons) than on a hellmouth with a suicidally depressed twenty something and a motley crew of people with problems looking for advice and help. That's *all* Giles leaving was to me.

 

[Dagenspear]

She also went catatonic in The Weight of the World, should Willow have let her stay so?

She wasn't dead then.

It was? Are we talking about the same show where defying fate was pretty much the Scooby gang's motto? I guess Xander should have gone to the dance in Prophecy Girl instead of saving Buffy since it was supposedly "her time" then too.

When did they ever defy fate? Buffy DID die in Prophecy Girl. The prophecy didn't say she would stay dead though. Like The Master said, "Prophecies are tricky things." Also, it wasn't like she was dead and gone. It was a simple drowning. People are brought back from the brink of those all the time. And they don't need to break the laws of nature to do it.

She knew enough to succeed in doing the impossible and saving everybody's lives on quite a few occasions. You can't have it both ways - either Willow is competent enough that Giles leaving her study magic all on her own wasn't a moronic move or they are both "rank amateurs: in which case whatever Giles says about magic might well be far from the truth. And I see you conveniently ignored Tara and Anya (who was casting spells a thousand years before Giles was even born) agreed with Willow's plan.

It's not about knowing magical spells or stupid stuff like that. Willow had NO sense of responsibilty for it. She raped Tara's mind. Twice. That's just disgusting.

And once again, I admitted that Giles leaving wasn't exactly the BEST choice. He's fallible. He's human that way.

Tara was biast at the time, and maybe a little naive. She had no idea what darkness Willow was F'ing with, and if she had none that Willow was going around stabbing Bambi, she would have stopped her. And Anya was just... well, Anya. She screwed with stuff like this all the time. It was no big to her.

That's what The First says. Doesn't mean it's true. And he might have even referred to Prophecy Girl (or maybe not, I don't remember much of S7). Still, there are things you can't predict.

That all seeing eye thing said so too. And yes, there are things you can't predict. That's why you shouldn't screw with stuff like that.

So why the lectures then? He thought her resurrecting Buffy was incredibly stupid, he witnessed her doing mind wipes, he went on and on about how she was relying on magic too much (All The Way). What else did he need, a copy of the Villains script?

Once again, not the best choice. Maybe he was in denial about how truly bad off she'd become. Like I said, human that way.

There is a middle ground between doing everything for Buffy and doing nothing, you know.

And I admitted that. He makes mistakes. But those mistakes don't include giving the ultimate evil opportunities to destroy the line of slayers.

---------- Post added at 11:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 AM ----------

First, NO ONE predicted that the slayer line would be left vulnerable because of the resurrection. Not Giles. Not Anya. Not Tara. I don't remember any fans predicting it in S6/early S7. That's like blaming the inventors of the car/internal cumbustion engine for climate change. Blaming the creators of high fructose corn syrup for obesity.
As for the "You can't reverse death" argument, where does that rule come from? I know that, per the show, Wiccans believe that. However, how is it a moral imperitive when it is possible to ask a god to reverse death and it happens? It is physically possible to bring back some people in this 'verse and the morals of it are a subject of debate, not a clear wrong like killing people.

Now, Buffy never said that she was "done" in S5. Here's where the naivette of the Scoobs come in. I could read in S5 that Buffy was fed up with life period and this opportunity to take Dawn's place worked for Buffy's "protect Dawn" and "suicidal" instincts. However the gang did put Buffy on a pedestal. They thought that Buffy loved life and enjoyed being a heroine and that she would love to be brought back to save more people and watch Dawn grow up and be with them. They thought that like Buffy said at 16, she didn't want to die, and sacrificing herself was some horrible loss that Buffy had to endure to save Dawn. The Scoobs were wrong but it's because they had the best intentions/view of Buffy which *is* sympathetic.

As for Giles, he was being paid to be Buffy's Watcher. Buffy begged him to stay. Giles knew perfectly damn well that he was leaving the other twenty-something/pre-teen Scoobs (minus Spike and Anya) to help Buffy slay or watch Dawn. Why couldn't he, with his experience and knowlege and wisdom and financial means, participate in that? Me thinks its because life is more pleasant, calm and easy in Merry Ole' England (shown by the horsies and pastures of Lessons) than on a hellmouth with a suicidally depressed twenty something and a motley crew of people with problems looking for advice and help. That's *all* Giles leaving was to me.

Read my previous post.

 

[Icarium]

She wasn't dead then.

She wasn't dead when she said she was done either. Let's say Willow could have stopped Buffy from jumping. Should she have just shrugged and said "Nah, that's what she wants"? Because, you know, deciding you are done when you think that's the only way to save your sister is totally the same thing as refusing to live even when both you and your sister could be alive.

When did they ever defy fate?

They did it constantly by not believing in things like fate in the first place.

Buffy DID die in Prophecy Girl. The prophecy didn't say she would stay dead though

Not really the point. If Xander was content in following what fate had supposedly decided he wouldn't have tried to save Buffy. And Buffy wouldn't have needed to die at all if she didn't decide to follow the prophecy herself, so...

It was a simple drowning. People are brought back from the brink of those all the time. And they don't need to break the laws of nature to do it.

Let's say there was a wide spread view that said that CPRs are not to be done and people who are clinically dead shouldn't be brought back to life. Would that make Xander wrong in bringing Buffy back? It's not like Buffy left instructions not to be resurrected or ever showed any indication in believing in heaven and so on. In a world where resurrection are a real possibility, I support Willow's view - I need more than vague "it's not natural" in order to rule out resurrections. In our world the same argument was used unconvincingly for many things, from automobiles to inoculations and blood transfusions.

It's not about knowing magical spells or stupid stuff like that. Willow had NO sense of responsibilty for it. She raped Tara's mind. Twice. That's just disgusting.

And Giles once used magic to get high. I guess this rules him out forever from being right about anything magic related... Yes, Willow lost the plot after the resurrection. Doesn't mean she was wrong about it. And there is again the small matter of Xander, Tara and Anya agreeing with the resurrection. Did they also lack all sense of responsibility?

And I admitted that. He makes mistakes. But those mistakes don't include giving the ultimate evil opportunities to destroy the line of slayers.

No, only an opportunity for the First Slayer to kill everyone in their sleep. for Willow to destroy the whole world thanks to the magic she borrowed from Giles, or for Angel to go evil and kill many people because Giles didn't forbid Buffy from dating him. Once we start blaming the characters for things they didn't see coming, we might as well conclude that everyone is an awful, awful person since they were so many things they could have prevented from happening if they had taken different decisions. Why blame Willwo for that but no one else?

 

[Dagenspear]

She wasn't dead when she said she was done either. Let's say Willow could have stopped Buffy from jumping. Should she have just shrugged and said "Nah, that's what she wants"? Because, you know, deciding you are done when you think that's the only way to save your sister is totally the same thing as refusing to live even when both you and your sister could be alive.

No. She should have allowed the natural course of life and death to play out.

They did it constantly by not believing in things like fate in the first place.

Give me an example.

Not really the point. If Xander was content in following what fate had supposedly decided he wouldn't have tried to save Buffy. And Buffy wouldn't have needed to die at all if she didn't decide to follow the prophecy herself, so...

Xander saving her life was fate. The prophecy said she would die, and so she did. It didn't say that she wouldn't be resesitated.

Let's say there was a wide spread view that said that CPRs are not to be done and people who are clinically dead shouldn't be brought back to life. Would that make Xander wrong in bringing Buffy back? It's not like Buffy left instructions not to be resurrected or ever showed any indication in believing in heaven and so on. In a world where resurrection are a real possibility, I support Willow's view - I need more than vague "it's not natural" in order to rule out resurrections. In our world the same argument was used unconvincingly for many things, from automobiles to inoculations and blood transfusions.

Doing those aren't ripping someone out of the afterlife and reversing the laws of life and death, screwing up the natural course of the universe.

And Giles once used magic to get high. I guess this rules him out forever from being right about anything magic related... Yes, Willow lost the plot after the resurrection. Doesn't mean she was wrong about it. And there is again the small matter of Xander, Tara and Anya agreeing with the resurrection. Did they also lack all sense of responsibility?

Yeah, when Giles was a punk kid he F'ed with dark magic. But you know what that doesn't do? That doesn't make Willow doing the same, and even worse in most cases, okay. And if they all knew the complete truth about the situation, they never would've allowed it. Like I said, Xander and Tara were both manipulated into this, because he was close to Buffy and because she believed in Willow, and that wake-up call for her was a rude one, when she discovered exactly and insane with power Willow had gotten. And Anya is just... Anya.

No, only an opportunity for the First Slayer to kill everyone in their sleep. for Willow to destroy the whole world thanks to the magic she borrowed from Giles, or for Angel to go evil and kill many people because Giles didn't forbid Buffy from dating him. Once we start blaming the characters for things they didn't see coming, we might as well conclude that everyone is an awful, awful person since they were so many things they could have prevented from happening if they had taken different decisions. Why blame Willwo for that but no one else?

Because no one else screwed with the natural course of life and death, by tapping into dark magic. Just Willow.

---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------

I can't believe that this is actually something that can be argued for.

 

[Icarium]

Xander saving her life was fate.

Says who?

Give me an example.

The burden of proof is on you. But I will indulge you - it's repeatedly stated that Buffy will die young. She wants to have a career anyway. If she was resigned to her fate, she wouldn't have gone to college. She would have killed herself after Willow resurrected her, if she believed that her fate was to be dead by now.

Doing those aren't ripping someone out of the afterlife and reversing the laws of life and death, screwing up the natural course of the universe.

Repeating this "Laws of life and death" phrase isn't going ot make it any more convincing. Wolfram and Hart broke those laws when they resurrected Darla and Spike, without nothing much happening as a result except for alive Darla and Spike. Chris Epps resurrected his brother - the world wasn't in peril as a result of that either.

Yeah, when Giles was a punk kid he F'ed with dark magic. But you know what that doesn't do? That doesn't make Willow doing the same, and even worse in most cases, okay.

It doesn't make every decision Willow ever took suddenly wrong either. If Willow hadn't done anything wrong after the resurrection would that convince you the resurrection was the right decision? Why not just stick to the actions of the characters rather than what they did after the events we are discussing.

Like I said, Xander and Tara were both manipulated into this, because he was close to Buffy and because she believed in Willow, and that wake-up call for her was a rude one, when she discovered exactly and insane with power Willow had gotten. And Anya is just... Anya.

On the flip side, maybe Giles made his "OMG, you could have destroyed the world" claim only because he was pissed they didn't tell him about the resurrection. Whether Tara and Xander were manipulated or not, the fact is they went along with the plan. So if Willow was monumentally irresponsible, so were they. They had ample time to think things through and decided to help Willow. And Anya would never go along with a plan that would risk the well being of the whole world just to help Buffy. So yes, the way I see it they all thought it was the right thing to do. Considering that Buffy is quite well adapted to life right now, I would say they were right.

 

[Pik]

Wasn't it something like they thought the portal she fell into led to hell?

 

[Dagenspear]

Says who?

The burden of proof is on you. But I will indulge you - it's repeatedly stated that Buffy will die young. She wants to have a career anyway. If she was resigned to her fate, she wouldn't have gone to college. She would have killed herself after Willow resurrected her, if she believed that her fate was to be dead by now.

Repeating this "Laws of life and death" phrase isn't going ot make it any more convincing. Wolfram and Hart broke those laws when they resurrected Darla and Spike, without nothing much happening as a result except for alive Darla and Spike. Chris Epps resurrected his brother - the world wasn't in peril as a result of that either.

It doesn't make every decision Willow ever took suddenly wrong either. If Willow hadn't done anything wrong after the resurrection would that convince you the resurrection was the right decision? Why not just stick to the actions of the characters rather than what they did after the events we are discussing.

On the flip side, maybe Giles made his "OMG, you could have destroyed the world" claim only because he was pissed they didn't tell him about the resurrection. Whether Tara and Xander were manipulated or not, the fact is they went along with the plan. So if Willow was monumentally irresponsible, so were they. They had ample time to think things through and decided to help Willow. And Anya would never go along with a plan that would risk the well being of the whole world just to help Buffy. So yes, the way I see it they all thought it was the right thing to do. Considering that Buffy is quite well adapted to life right now, I would say they were right.

No matter what you say, or how you justify it, Willow was wrong. And I still can't believe that this is actually debatable. I also think it's funny that you're using people like Chris Epps and Wolfram & Hart to try and make sense of your argument. And if I recall, didn't Spike coming back cause some kind of disturbance? And, Anya wasn't exactly the most thoughtful person of the group. And, yes, Xander is just as irresponsible as Willow, and maybe Tara is to some respect, but, I think it's clear that she wouldn't have gone along with it if Willow hadn't manipulated and lied to her about the nature of the spell. Also, she thought Willow understood her power, but, sadly for her, Willow's arrogance got the best of the situation. Buffy did die young. Fate fulfilled. But then Willow, arrogantly, brought her back.

 

[ticonderouga]

One of Willows character traits is that she has a very difficult time letting go of people that she cares about, its simply something she can't do easily. It is in fact one of the reason why she is such a good friend, she never gives up on the people that she cares about. However, whenever she is faced with any real loss, she gets trapped into a state of denial and has a tendency to go off the deep end. For example when Buffy runs away in season 3, Willow is the one that enforces the 'no past tense' rule, and I suspect she was the one that came up with that rule, and when Buffy does return Willow can barely talk to Buffy until she thinks that Buffy might be leaving again, then she basically blows up in minor sort of way. Again in season 4 with Oz and Veruca she comes very close to killing both, and when Oz leaves, Willow basically just shuts down and doesn't deal with it at all for good portion of season 4. For the most part this refusal to give up is a great quality and its why she is such an important member of the Scoobies, however its also the trait that leads her to the decision to resurrect Buffy, and go off the deep end when she can't do the same thing for Tara.

So while I do think that Willow was somewhat naive, to think that Buffy was in hell, I think that this was very consistent with Willow's character. It probably never even occurred to Willow that she should try to find out where exactly Buffy was, though even if she had I think that Willow might very well have gone through with the spell so she didn't lose her best friend.

 

[Dagenspear]

One of Willows character traits is that she has a very difficult time letting go of people that she cares about, its simply something she can't do easily. It is in fact one of the reason why she is such a good friend, she never gives up on the people that she cares about. However, whenever she is faced with any real loss, she gets trapped into a state of denial and has a tendency to go off the deep end. For example when Buffy runs away in season 3, Willow is the one that enforces the 'no past tense' rule, and I suspect she was the one that came up with that rule, and when Buffy does return Willow can barely talk to Buffy until she thinks that Buffy might be leaving again, then she basically blows up in minor sort of way. Again in season 4 with Oz and Veruca she comes very close to killing both, and when Oz leaves, Willow basically just shuts down and doesn't deal with it at all for good portion of season 4. For the most part this refusal to give up is a great quality and its why she is such an important member of the Scoobies, however its also the trait that leads her to the decision to resurrect Buffy, and go off the deep end when she can't do the same thing for Tara.

So while I do think that Willow was somewhat naive, to think that Buffy was in hell, I think that this was very consistent with Willow's character. It probably never even occurred to Willow that she should try to find out where exactly Buffy was, though even if she had I think that Willow might very well have gone through with the spell so she didn't lose her best friend.

Exactly. It's a pretty selfish attitude, don't you think?

 

[shadcat]

Didn't Buffy act like a different person when she was resurrected? It was rare to see her smile or act like herself. I'm trying to think of any time in the last two seasons where she was "her old self".... and all I can think of is a depressed person.

 

[PassionBecoming]

Didn't Buffy act like a different person when she was resurrected? It was rare to see her smile or act like herself. I'm trying to think of any time in the last two seasons where she was "her old self".... and all I can think of is a depressed person.

She was extremely depressed and desolate, and didn't know how to relate to the world anymore. Who wouldn't be after being ripped out of heaven?

Someone mentioned Buffy dropping into a portal, but she didn't go INTO the portal, she closed it.

Willow is extremely irresponsible with her magics. She claimed in S6 that she just wanted to help people, but when you look back, I would say the vast majority of her spells were motivated by selfishness. And no, none of the others should have gone along with the resurrection spell, either. That was a blatant act against the natural order of things. (Which I don't really understand that Willow and Tara would think of doing this so easily after the speech to Dawn about not being able to resurrect Joyce. That always bothered me.)