Was it really Doyle who passed the visions to Cordy?

T

The Arcane

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It occurred to me that the idea that it was Doyle who passed the visions onto Cordy may be a flawed one. I'm thinking this for two reasons.

One, he loved her. Now I realise that he understood that the visions were an important part of the mission Angel was on but ultimately would that have been enough for him to willingly pass them to Cordy? Given that he was aware how painful they were to him, even as a half demon, it would be a little unlikely that he would want to put any regular human through that kind of agony, no matter how important they were. Even less likely that he would give them to the girl of his dreams.

"I love you Cordy but I have to sacrifice myself. Just before I go though, here's a little gift of mind numbing, head splitting, life threatening visions. Take care now!"

Doesn't make a lot of sense really, does it?

Secondly, and maybe more significantly, is the how he would even go about it if he had wanted to. I can't imagine that passing on the visions was written into the Vision Getter's Manual so it begs the question how he would know what to do to pass them to anyone. And if we assume that he did somehow develop that knowledge then why not get rid of them a long time ago?

Personally I think it makes a lot more sense to assume that it was either the PTB or more likely Jasmine that was responsible for Cordy getting the visions. That was a necessary part of her plan to use Cordy as her mother, after all.
 
You do raise some very interesting points. I'd say I'm 80% convinced! I guess my other 20% is still stuck in the romantic part of it.
 
Well I always assumed that the powers did have a little something to do with it.

The Watcher said:
One, he loved her. Now I realise that he understood that the visions were an important part of the mission Angel was on but ultimately would that have been enough for him to willingly pass them to Cordy? Given that he was aware how painful they were to him, even as a half demon, it would be a little unlikely that he would want to put any regular human through that kind of agony, no matter how important they were. Even less likely that he would give them to the girl of his dreams.
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Well I think it was a nice thing, he gave her pretty much the only thing of importance to him in the world - He didn't have much else.

"I love you Cordy but I have to sacrifice myself. Just before I go though, here's a little gift of mind numbing, head splitting, life threatening visions. Take care now!"[

Doesn't make a lot of sense really, does it?
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Well it kinda does, It's possible he loved his visions but didn't show it. And he gave Cordy something he loved, and they became something she loved, remember how protective she became over them!

Secondly, and maybe more significantly, is the how he would even go about it if he had wanted to. I can't imagine that passing on the visions was written into the Vision Getter's Manual so it begs the question how he would know what to do to pass them to anyone. And if we assume that he did somehow develop that knowledge then why not get rid of them a long time ago?
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Well he couldn't have done it with someone else, cuz there had to be some kinda love feelings between the people for the exchange to happen. Like remember when Cordy first got them - She tried to give them to Angel and Wesley but couldn't.
 
I kinda like that Cordy is most reminded of Doyle when she is in pain.

Hmm, I think this question will lead to the "was what we were shown in the birthday ep real or fabrication" debate.

See, if it was real, Angel didn't so much as give the visions to Cordy, more like she took them.

I don't know, interesting question.
 
I think whether or not Doyle wanted to give Cordy the visions, the PTB would have made sure that she got them. At least, Jasmine would have saw to it that she got them because she needed them.
 
Black Eye Guy said:
Well he couldn't have done it with someone else, cuz there had to be some kinda love feelings between the people for the exchange to happen. Like remember when Cordy first got them - She tried to give them to Angel and Wesley but couldn't.
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Why did there? Why are we assuming that the passing on of the visions had absolutely anything to do with "love"? Perhaps the reason that Cordy couldn't pass the visions on to either Angel or Wes was simply because there was absolutely no way of willingly passing the visions on in the first place. In which case there would be no way that Doyle could have made the choice to pass them on to Cordy either.

Basically we have always assumed what Angel and Cordy chose to assume without questioning the fact that they had no way of knowing themselves that it was Doyle who made that choice. It gave Cordy some form of comfort to believe that Doyle had given her the visions but that doesn't mean that this was the truth.
 
I always thought he did intentionally pass em on to Cordy but having read this debate and seen "birthday" and if i remember rightly the orticles said " a door closes another door opens". So that tells me the ptb had a hand in it and Used Doyle to pass em on, the question of wether he was aware or not remains a mystery, and Jasmine just saw it as an oportunity to further her plan, knowing this was going to take place.I still feel that she delibratly made the visions more painfull then they shoulda been.
 
Okay, here is how I actually think it went down.

It's already been established in the explanation given by Skip (in Inside Out I think) that Jasmine had been using Angel and the team as pawns from as far back as when he first came to L.A. or at the very least from the night that Angel and Cordy crossed paths at the party. Very possibly longer than that, given that he mentioned everything from Fred ending up in Pylea to Lorne leaving there was a manipulation of Jasmine. The fact he was aware of the specifics suggests some truth in his words.

Therefore it is very safe to assume that it was Jasmine that influenced the events of Hero. Basically she needed a "mother" to give birth to her and that mother needed to be a certain way in order to contain her. Any old half human/demon wouldn't do. It had to be a woman specifically altered to Jasmines needs. Hence the need to manipulate a girl into allowing herself to be altered physically.

We know that Jasmine was behind Angel and Cordy meeting that night so we also know that it was intentional that she had to be the one that received the visions. However, the logic of it being Doyle who would force them upon her is not something I believe she would have depended on. As I said before, he saw them as being as much of a curse as a gift and she had already told him (in Lonely Heart) that she would not be exactly happy if she had been given them. Let's also not forget the head splitting pain that goes along with them.

With all that in mind I simply cannot believe that Doyle really would have wished them onto Cordy, even if he could have.

That really only leaves one option. See, as sneaky as Jasmine was I doubt she could have got away with transferring the visions herself without the other PTB knowing about it. It's much more likely that she simply had manipulated them as well, ensuring that the only real possible candidate to be given the visions was Cordy, Angel's only other ally at that time. Also, conveniently the one person that Jasmine needed to receive them.
 
The Watcher said:
Therefore it is very safe to assume that it was Jasmine that influenced the events of Hero. Basically she needed a "mother" to give birth to her and that mother needed to be a certain way in order to contain her. Any old half human/demon wouldn't do. It had to be a woman specifically altered to Jasmines needs. Hence the need to manipulate a girl into allowing herself to be altered physically.
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But as you say, its ONLY safe to assume under the belief that Jasmine had any control of anything pre-Hero.
Jasmine was a 'Power-that-Was' and Skip was in her 'employ', as it were.
So its highly plausible that the events she witnessed she only witnessed and decided to use them for her own gain. Informed Skip of what he needed to know and thus we have a reason why he had some truth.
If Skip had been impartial or indeed another impartial observer had said this, it would/could be given credence however, Skip isn't exactly trust worthy.

I believe that it was an opportunity the PTB's took advantage of when they saw what was happening in Hero.
 
Bored of the Dead said:
But as you say, its ONLY safe to assume under the belief that Jasmine had any control of anything pre-Hero.
Jasmine was a 'Power-that-Was' and Skip was in her 'employ', as it were.
So its highly plausible that the events she witnessed she only witnessed and decided to use them for her own gain. Informed Skip of what he needed to know and thus we have a reason why he had some truth.
If Skip had been impartial or indeed another impartial observer had said this, it would/could be given credence however, Skip isn't exactly trust worthy.

I believe that it was an opportunity the PTB's took advantage of when they saw what was happening in Hero.
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I have to agree that I took a lot of what Skip said with a large grain of salt. The fact is that some of the stuff he mentioned had very little (even nothing) to do with Jasmine's plan. I mean, what exactly did sending Fred to Pylea do to help get Cordy to agree to the half-demon change?

If you look at the big picture hard enough then you would have to assume that Jasmine was responsible for everything from Angel becoming a vampire to Cordy and Oz walking in on Xander and Willow kissing in order to make sure that Cordy left Sunnydale. At some point you have to assume that Jasmine simply used events that were already in motion as best she could.

So I go back to what I said in my last post. Jasmine knew that she needed a female human to give birth to her and that the woman would need to be partially demon in form. She used the coincidence of Angel and Cordy being at the same party in City of Angel to get them together again and later used the developing relationship between Cordy and Doyle to make certain that the other PTB chose Cordy to receive the visions.

Ultimately though, with all we know, the bottom line is that it is extremely unlikely that Doyle was responsible for passing the visions onto Cordy.
 
No, there is merit to it. For example, Cordy going to Pylea is the turning point of her.
She is given everything she desires by becoming a Princess and realises thats not what she wants.
This in turn helps her become the woman capable of deciding to be part Demon.

I don't think Doyle knew what he was doing, cause I really don't think he would have burdened Cordy no matter his feelings, I believe that the PTB's realised Doyles intentions and stepped in/
 
Yeah, I see what you mean by there being merit for having Cordy go to Pylea but I'm talking more about just how much that Jasmine would have needed to do in order to make that happen.

What I mean is, if you take Skip at his word then you would have to assume that it was part of Jasmine's plan that Fred opened the book that sent her to Pylea. However, was that really necessary for what Jasmine wanted to happen to Cordy? Were there not easier ways to manipulate things so that she would be sent there? In fact, how could she be certain that things in Pylea would go exactly how she needed them to and Cordy not just stay there with Groo? Either Jasmine was already convinced that Cordy would do as she needed or she was going on guess work which could have ruined her entire plan.

Basically, it's like I said before. Exactly how far back do you have to believe that Jasmine was manipulating Angel and the gang in order to make her plan happen? If you assume that she only started using Cordy at the point in time she met Angel in LA then there is absolutely no reason to assume that she had anything at all to do with Fred going to Pylea, which occured at least three years earlier. There are a lot of things that don't add up to too close scrutiny. Unless Jasmine had somehow orchestrated everything that we ever saw happen to Angel and Cordy (which is unlikely as surely the other PTBs would have noticed at some point) then it's fair to say that most of the other things that happened that Skip gave Jasmine credit for were not really of her doing, more that she simply used the occurences to her advantage after the fact.
 
Arcane, you are preaching to the Choir. I personally don't give much merit to the whole 'Jasmine Orchestrated the whole thing way back when', I think she saw an opportunity, maybe at 'The Trial', and seized on it.

However, if we stop thinking, for just one moment, in the time frame from a Mortal perspective, instead from a being almost infinite, then we begin to see time has no meaning and that 5 years can be 5 hundred years to this entity.
Heck, if it truly had the ability to manipulate events it may go back as far as 'The Master' or even further.
There is no limit to this except the limits we place.
As for the 'What ifs' of things not going to plan i'm sure any omnipotent being would have many back-ups and fail safes.

This, to me, is simply down to which one you want to believe as you can simply explain each with the right logic.
 
My 2c =
I am totally on board with the improbability that Jasmine orchestrated the whole thing

I'm not sure how or why a season with so much promise disintigrated at the end but the whole Jasmine did it all arc was truly pulled out of someone's butt at the last minute

Secondly - I believe that Doyle deliberately passed on the visions to Cordy
I don't think he stopped to consider the idea that they were painful etc .. he was on the brink of sacrificing himself and he was looking at the bigpicture - the 'good fight' had to go on

As for how he knew how to pass them on - to me it was implied that his epiphany (about himself, his visions + his place in the good fight) bought with it acceptance & insight.

That's how I read it anyhow 🙂
 
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