Was Joyce a good mother?
- Thread starter Slayrunt
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Yes, she was a good mother. A very good mother, even... Which is not to say that she was perfect.
She's actually my favorite fictional mother, because of how many mistakes she made despite her good intentions and her great love for Buffy. She felt very realistic.
Also, Kristine Sutherland was the PERFECT casting.
She's actually my favorite fictional mother, because of how many mistakes she made despite her good intentions and her great love for Buffy. She felt very realistic.
Also, Kristine Sutherland was the PERFECT casting.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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W
WillowFromBuffy
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I think some of the characters are hurt by the fact that the Buffyverse is an analogy for real life. Joyce does not realise that she lives in a supernatural world and her daughter is a superhero. It is a genre problem.
Spike's attempted rape of Buffy causes a similar problem. In the real world, rape is an awful and dangerous thing. Buffy, however, has super powers and its hard to believe, in the context of the show, that Spike poses that much of a danger to her. Then Spike goes and gets his soul back. There is nothing in the real world that getting your soul back could be an analogy for.
The show is uncertain how to deal with these problems and everything gets kinda muddled. Sometimes the characters act appropriately to the fictional world they exist in. Other times the act like real people in the real world. Joyce does the latter.
Spike's attempted rape of Buffy causes a similar problem. In the real world, rape is an awful and dangerous thing. Buffy, however, has super powers and its hard to believe, in the context of the show, that Spike poses that much of a danger to her. Then Spike goes and gets his soul back. There is nothing in the real world that getting your soul back could be an analogy for.
The show is uncertain how to deal with these problems and everything gets kinda muddled. Sometimes the characters act appropriately to the fictional world they exist in. Other times the act like real people in the real world. Joyce does the latter.
I thought she was a good mother. There is no such thing as the Perfect Mother, because that Perfect Mother people talk about has incredible high standards that no human being can meet. I mean people talk endlessly about how horrible Joyce is, but Joyce is the parent who stayed. She's the one who kept Buffy, she's the one who gets judged and hated on for daring to date someone, she's expected to be sympathetic towards Buffy when she's not allowed to know what's really going on. Honestly, if I had a teenage daughter - who burned down a gym - sneak out on a nightly bases, I'd assume she's doing drugs - 'cause 'vampire slayer' isn't anyone's first guess.
Actually, I thought Joyce's reaction to Buffy 'coming out' as a vampire slayer was completely mild than the reaction I would have.
Joyce isn't allowed to be a human being because she's a mother. And when you become a mother, you are no longer a person. You're not allowed to have fun, you're not allowed to make mistakes, you're not allowed to do anything unless it's related to your kids' happiness. Funny how fathers are not judged the same way mothers are.
Actually, I thought Joyce's reaction to Buffy 'coming out' as a vampire slayer was completely mild than the reaction I would have.
Joyce isn't allowed to be a human being because she's a mother. And when you become a mother, you are no longer a person. You're not allowed to have fun, you're not allowed to make mistakes, you're not allowed to do anything unless it's related to your kids' happiness. Funny how fathers are not judged the same way mothers are.
YummySushiPJs
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I feel so sorry for Joyce in the early years. The main problems and distance between herself and Buffy arise solely from the secret Buffy is keeping from her - something that's not Joyce's fault at all (it might not be Buffy's either, but that's beside the point I'm making). Remember from Joyce's point of view Buffy is a difficult and troubled teenager - and Joyce is trying so hard, on her own, to be a good mother, with no idea really how. Being a mom doesn't come with instructions. She even says in a few episodes that she has consulted books to help her - to me that's just so sad that she's struggling so much to help Buffy that she's gone to the extent of getting books. But she's hitting her head against a wall and the sad truth is that she probably IS doing all the right things... for a normal teenage daughter. But Buffy is the slayer and "mom rules" don't apply to her life and never will. She's in an impossible position really which could only be helped by knowing the truth about Buffy's life. And of course as soon as she does, things improve immensely.
I know there are "in-story" reasons why Buffy doesn't tell Joyce earlier - and probably a truckload more that could be fanwanked, but to me it's too obviously a writer's choice which often takes me out of the "moment". I can't escape that the writers just chose for Joyce not to know cos, plot. Let's give Buffy more angst. Let's make her life unnecessarily hard. For every reason they wrote that Joyce shouldn't/couldn't know, they could have written a reason she should.
I remember reading an interview with Russel T Davis about how involved Jackie (the "mom" character) in Doctor Who was, and the reason he gave was because he said when he watched Buffy, he couldn't understand why the writers were keeping Joyce as an outsider. And it's true. There's no real reason other than "because that's the way we wanted the plot to go." Ok, fair enough, you could say that about anything that happens. But some of it seems natural and some of it seems forced. And this always seemed forced.
I know there are "in-story" reasons why Buffy doesn't tell Joyce earlier - and probably a truckload more that could be fanwanked, but to me it's too obviously a writer's choice which often takes me out of the "moment". I can't escape that the writers just chose for Joyce not to know cos, plot. Let's give Buffy more angst. Let's make her life unnecessarily hard. For every reason they wrote that Joyce shouldn't/couldn't know, they could have written a reason she should.
I remember reading an interview with Russel T Davis about how involved Jackie (the "mom" character) in Doctor Who was, and the reason he gave was because he said when he watched Buffy, he couldn't understand why the writers were keeping Joyce as an outsider. And it's true. There's no real reason other than "because that's the way we wanted the plot to go." Ok, fair enough, you could say that about anything that happens. But some of it seems natural and some of it seems forced. And this always seemed forced.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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Joss wanted Joyce to be an absentee mother. Hell, he didn't even want parents at all. I don't think he really cared how she appeared or did not appear. He simply didn't think about it. There was another issue (where I cannot recall at the time, about homosexuality) where people were praising him for his bold storytelling and he said it was not something he intended to do and wasn't even aware he was making a statement.
I think the fact that Joyce is viewed, or not viewed, as a good parent is more to do with Sutherland's ability and less the character itself. The character, on paper, is a horrible parent. Sutherland added empathy in the role where you could see from her perspective somewhat.
I think the fact that Joyce is viewed, or not viewed, as a good parent is more to do with Sutherland's ability and less the character itself. The character, on paper, is a horrible parent. Sutherland added empathy in the role where you could see from her perspective somewhat.
thrasherpix
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Overall, she was good (more specifically, I'd say not as good as some, but better than many, perhaps even most). I wouldn't call her "unfairly hard" in that she was lax, which I attribute to her great insecurity as a mother (so she listens to all those "experts" and the like, always scared Buffy was going to run away after the first time, etc). She was a bit too good at pretending the bad wasn't there which makes her naive, but that's something a lot of people do in the real world, no matter what their ages are, because the alternative (as it was for Joyce) was to obsess about the things that can go wrong in a neurotic way. At least most of Joyce's more infuriating moments are done with Buffy's interests at heart...and sometimes Buffy's smart mouth really brings out an annoyed Joyce who reacts accordingly for reasons I understand. (Though Joyce acts with selfishness at times, I think she does so less often than the typical mother.)
At the very least, she tries to help Buffy (as opposed to Willow's mom for Willow), and she knows Buffy's name (unlike Xander's mom who has to ask who he is when he calls).
That mix of care and naivety/denial makes her lucky to have survived as long as she did. It was a well-meaning, if mind boggling clueless, gesture to make Buffy's patrol into a mother-daughter night without telling Buffy first, in the episode Gingerbread (speaking of which, Joyce has damn good reasons to be terrified of, and hate, the supernatural though I do believe the demon in that episode exerted a type of mind control over her rather than that was Joyce provided with a podium so I'm not holding her terrible behavior this episode against her similar to why I don't hold it against her for coming after Xander while she's under a powerful love spell).
Though I have wondered how much Joyce knew at a subconscious level (Buffy asks her how many times she washed blood out of Buffy's clothes without asking anything about it). For example, when Willow shows up on a school night (after Angelus kills Willow's fish) Joyce lets her in to spend the night, something that is very easy going for a mother to do (but I'm imagining that even as Joyce's conscious mind shut out what was going on around her she could sense something wrong with Buffy and perhaps general unease as Angelus was watching Joyce sleep as well, and then the telltale signs of fear in Willow's eyes and voice, and truly concerned for Willow she lets her in without clearing it with Willow's parents or worrying about her house or extra morning chores, her subconscious mind justifying it to the conscious somehow to explain away the fear she has for Willow's safety).
I've also wondered if Joyce was once a potential Slayer, but she was lucky enough to miss the call...I especially wonder that in scenes like where Joyce whacks Spike with the axe. 🙂 (That, by the way, is more than I think most mothers would do in that case, even if they did love their daughter.)
At the very least, she tries to help Buffy (as opposed to Willow's mom for Willow), and she knows Buffy's name (unlike Xander's mom who has to ask who he is when he calls).
That mix of care and naivety/denial makes her lucky to have survived as long as she did. It was a well-meaning, if mind boggling clueless, gesture to make Buffy's patrol into a mother-daughter night without telling Buffy first, in the episode Gingerbread (speaking of which, Joyce has damn good reasons to be terrified of, and hate, the supernatural though I do believe the demon in that episode exerted a type of mind control over her rather than that was Joyce provided with a podium so I'm not holding her terrible behavior this episode against her similar to why I don't hold it against her for coming after Xander while she's under a powerful love spell).
Though I have wondered how much Joyce knew at a subconscious level (Buffy asks her how many times she washed blood out of Buffy's clothes without asking anything about it). For example, when Willow shows up on a school night (after Angelus kills Willow's fish) Joyce lets her in to spend the night, something that is very easy going for a mother to do (but I'm imagining that even as Joyce's conscious mind shut out what was going on around her she could sense something wrong with Buffy and perhaps general unease as Angelus was watching Joyce sleep as well, and then the telltale signs of fear in Willow's eyes and voice, and truly concerned for Willow she lets her in without clearing it with Willow's parents or worrying about her house or extra morning chores, her subconscious mind justifying it to the conscious somehow to explain away the fear she has for Willow's safety).
I've also wondered if Joyce was once a potential Slayer, but she was lucky enough to miss the call...I especially wonder that in scenes like where Joyce whacks Spike with the axe. 🙂 (That, by the way, is more than I think most mothers would do in that case, even if they did love their daughter.)
Joyce was a better mother than any other mother in the show. She was a better mother than Hank was a father. She was the best parent in Sunnydale! That's not saying much, but it's enough.
I do think that in the hands of any other random actress that the character would probably be universally despised. Kristine Sutherland is very warm, very approachable and brings a charm to the role. She also grows into it over several seasons.
I do think that in the hands of any other random actress that the character would probably be universally despised. Kristine Sutherland is very warm, very approachable and brings a charm to the role. She also grows into it over several seasons.
Carrie Hopewell
Little girl lost in the woods
No she wasn't.
Joyce was only a decent mother in season 5 and parts of season 4. But let's not forget that she was barely present in season 4 and still managed to use her daughter's room as storage! And in season 5, Dawn happened. Maybe the monks saw how shitty Joyce had been with Buffy and decided that their precious key needed to be better protected...
In the high schools years, Joyce neglected Buffy. It wasn't just Joyce being a "flawed" mother, it was neglect.
Joyce never realized that Buffy left her house at night or that her clothes were torn and bloody? Joyce didn't even keep an eye on Buffy's mental state and how she was doing at school. School Hard seems to be the first time Joyce asks Buffy about that in season 2, despite the fact that she was so hard on her in season 1. Joyce grounds Buffy in Bad Eggs because Buffy wasn't at the library yet she had been involved in that whole mess herself for no reason! What a hypocrite. In season 2, Joyce is downright mean sometimes and in season 1 she's even more neglectful. There a lot of episodes in which Joyce rubs in Buffy's face how she had to move her life for her daughter, and how said daughter wasn't living up to the expectations...
Even after knowing Buffy's a slayer in season 3, she still prefers to think about her daughter going to college and not the hard reality of her daughter's life. By then, she's had some time to process things, and instead of accepting how Buffy is and trying to be there for her, she's all: maybe you should leave your slaying behind, and I could go with you on patrols, or I can just tell your bf to stop dating you! Buffy has to make compromises with her mother, while Joyce doesn't do much other than nag imo. She kind of only makes things worse.
So yeah, despite how great Kristine is, Joyce isn't all that great.
Joyce was only a decent mother in season 5 and parts of season 4. But let's not forget that she was barely present in season 4 and still managed to use her daughter's room as storage! And in season 5, Dawn happened. Maybe the monks saw how shitty Joyce had been with Buffy and decided that their precious key needed to be better protected...
In the high schools years, Joyce neglected Buffy. It wasn't just Joyce being a "flawed" mother, it was neglect.
Joyce never realized that Buffy left her house at night or that her clothes were torn and bloody? Joyce didn't even keep an eye on Buffy's mental state and how she was doing at school. School Hard seems to be the first time Joyce asks Buffy about that in season 2, despite the fact that she was so hard on her in season 1. Joyce grounds Buffy in Bad Eggs because Buffy wasn't at the library yet she had been involved in that whole mess herself for no reason! What a hypocrite. In season 2, Joyce is downright mean sometimes and in season 1 she's even more neglectful. There a lot of episodes in which Joyce rubs in Buffy's face how she had to move her life for her daughter, and how said daughter wasn't living up to the expectations...
Even after knowing Buffy's a slayer in season 3, she still prefers to think about her daughter going to college and not the hard reality of her daughter's life. By then, she's had some time to process things, and instead of accepting how Buffy is and trying to be there for her, she's all: maybe you should leave your slaying behind, and I could go with you on patrols, or I can just tell your bf to stop dating you! Buffy has to make compromises with her mother, while Joyce doesn't do much other than nag imo. She kind of only makes things worse.
So yeah, despite how great Kristine is, Joyce isn't all that great.
Professor Walsh
Feminist slayerette
To me, Joyce is a fairly real depiction of a mother. Not "The Mother" or all mothers, but one woman with a teenager to raise, a job that demands something of her and a somewhat chaotic personal life. Sometimes she's great, sometimes she says things I hope I will never, ever say.
If I were to take a close look at all Joyce's appearances in the show, I suspect I would find that the character is a bit inconsistently written. Sometimes, the writers needed her to be absent, then she didn't notice Buffy's disappearances. At other times she was needed as a complicating factor in the plot, then she would become stricter all of a sudden.
(A small thing I noticed: The Wikipedia article on Sutherland mentions that she is married to John Pankow and that they have one daughter. The Wikipedia article on him only mentions that he is married to her, the child is not mentioned,)
If I were to take a close look at all Joyce's appearances in the show, I suspect I would find that the character is a bit inconsistently written. Sometimes, the writers needed her to be absent, then she didn't notice Buffy's disappearances. At other times she was needed as a complicating factor in the plot, then she would become stricter all of a sudden.
(A small thing I noticed: The Wikipedia article on Sutherland mentions that she is married to John Pankow and that they have one daughter. The Wikipedia article on him only mentions that he is married to her, the child is not mentioned,)
Zenseem
Evil, skanky and kinda gay
Yes, she is. She's not perfect tho, and she's made some questionable decisions, but, hell, everybody make's them and that doesn't mean she's a bad mother. She's a single mom raising two (or one, it depends) daughters and we all know she did a hell of a great job.
The whole "how does Joyce not know about the supernatural" thing is not a reflection about Joyce's character, it's just how things work in Sunnydale. Remember 'The Harvest'? The Scoobies had a huge fight against vampires in the Bronze, and yet none of the civilians remembered the vampires the day after. It's never explained properly, and it's never explained why Willow and Xander could catch on so quick when everyone else couldn't (Man, season 1 did NOT set up the world of the show well at all), but that's just how it is. So I don't think that Joyce's inability to notice Buffy's slayer-ness makes Joyce a bad mother - it just makes her a normal citizen of Sunnydale.
If I was in Joyce's place, I would do almost all of these things too. I wouldn't want my daughter to risk her life every day, and I wouldn't want her to date someone like Angel (He's literally centuries older than she is, and he has a very bad history), and I would want my daughter to go to college. What parent WOULDN'T want these things for their child?
And Buffy could totally go to college. As evidenced by the fact that she DID.
Skanky Vamp
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All this combined with the fact that Buffy had previously been institutionalized for burning down her gym after seeing vampires. Buffy's being institutionalized was, more or less, the cause of her parents divorce so each time Joyce throws the 'woe is me a single parent' line in Buffy's face it could be considered downright vindictive.
DeadlyDuo
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Agreed. Also in season 4 and 5, Buffy was older and had that freedom to come and go as she needed. In seasons 1-3 she couldn't do that because of still being in high school. Joyce couldn't catch her sneaking out to slay otherwise the show would be called Buffy the stuck in her room vampire slayer.
I didnt think Joyce was a bad mum at all. Absent like many who work, but providing a nice house, full wardrobe, food... She was caring when she had time. She wasnt neglectful, but i never noticed what @Mr Pole mentioned before - hmm.
GraceK
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Not to mention the whole Ted thing. I don't care how many happy cookies she ate, she completely absorbed herself in him...telling
Him all these personal things about Buffy, not being disturbed that he's trying to discipline her, or that he's creeping in her room. Doesn't believe that he hit her and blames Buffy for cheating. Then in Crush, when Buffy tells her about Spike her first response is to ask if Buffy lead him on. Really???
She wasn't a terrible mother, just kind of lame and neglectful.
I don't mean this to be disrespectful but you seem to have a low opinion of mothers. Most mothers I know, including me, and my mom would have done the same ,maybe more. Anyone who laid a hand on me would have gotten their butts kicked by my mom, and I feel the same about my son. To me, Joyce is a lot more neglectful , oblivious and lame than most mothers in my experience. She sets a pretty low bar lol
thrasherpix
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That's probably true of you, and it is of me. I still don't think it's true of most (nor do I mistake the greater society by my personal acquaintances as many do, nor do I believe naivety or pretending people are better than they are is a virtue as I know it is for many people who have the "(s)he who smelt it, dealt it" philosophy, or worse, that their beliefs actually shape reality by direct force so that to prepare for the worst is to invite it to happen, or that it angers God by a lack of faith and thus God will punish them with what they fear, etc). I started to share my reasoning but it was turning into an essay that involved history (including how common parents sent their children to abusive factories for the extra money rather than to school or otherwise protecting them, and I've seen enough to know many still would today if it were allowed by law), sociology, and personal experience (I don't mean just me, but of many I've known, and plenty of news stories show the same, as do the rates in which children are killed everyday in abuse, if not by their mothers then by people their mothers knew, and may have even watched, which is worst case scenario, many prefer convenience and like to pretend all is okay or simply shut down when put on the spot).
From my perspective, Joyce was downright smothering rather than neglectful. Guess I went too many days without eating (or having to go to friends, raid free food samples, etc) even on my mother's better days as a child for it to appear any other way (and I consider my mother better than some others I've known). I can buy that Joyce was (like many if not most people) deeply flawed, but not that she was neglectful, and certainly not unloving. If Buffy was neglected then that word has no meaning to me.
But in any case, I wasn't saying YOU were a bad mother, nor was I meaning to specifically slam mothers as a demographic since I have fairly low expectations of about everyone (though not in a hair pulling way, and it's much easier to pleasantly surprise me as often happens than to disappoint me). I'm sure we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether Joyce was better or worse than many, but I didn't want you to think I was slamming all mothers. It's not my intent to make anyone feel bad about themselves, and everyone (mother, childless by choice, kids, and about everyone else) feels constantly criticized for their choices or how they are.
Though there was one tidbit of info I read in a book on criminal psychology: when the FBI find a murdered child who has been put into a coat then they automatically look to the mother. It seems even mothers who murder their own children retain some maternal feelings for an offspring even after dead. I share that as I find it interesting (and it does imply an ingrained protectiveness even in the mothers who kill their own children), and also because it reminds me of the scene where Willow's mother tells Willow to get her coat even as she intends to burn her at the stake (insanity caused by demonic power aside, that's actually accurate!).
Hmmm....this song sums up how I view people (which includes mothers), and set to Buffy...and I just found it this morning:
I'm sharing because it's Buffy/Angel (and I just found it this morning so it's fresh on my mind), but I mean it more for the lyrics, though ("Underneath it all, we're just savages, hidden beneath shirts, ties, and marriages, how can we expect anything at all when we're animals still learning to crawl").