Was Joyce too hard?

[Phantom Dennis]

Well wasn't Joyce kind of drunk at the time? She seemed to regret it at the end when she found Buffy had packed up and left. It just seemed to be one of those things parents say to sort of threaten their children into doing the right thing.

 

[Angelic Slayer]

I think that Joyce did overreact, but probably no more than any average person would.

For starters, Joyce at this point had no prior knowlege of vampires.
As far as she's concerned, they're simply a make-believe character, a child's story of sorts. All she knows rationally is that: 1) Her daughter is out a lot, 2) Her daughter has been in some kind of an abusive relationship, had an emotional toll taken on her, 3) She's washed blood out of her daughter's clothing on several occations, 4) Her daughter could be in some kind of danger, and of course as we later learn, Buffy has been admitted to an asylum before. And now, on top of it, Joyce is stressed out, confused, unnatural things are suddenly happening around her, and N OWher daughter's saying she's "the chosen one" destined to fight the forces of darkness.

Man, I'd be a wreck too!

Given all this, it's also really not that far of a stretch to think that Buffy is insane. After all, she's (in Joyce's eyes) had this problem with vampire gibberish before- and she was admitted, and it was cured- it ended. Now she's having a relapse, talking about it all over again- so she must be going loony again.

Picture your daughter (or neice, or friend) coming up to you, after you've been through a ringer of a night, and saying they're the chosen one. What would your first reaction be (assuming you'd never seen or heard of the show Buffy or anything of the like 😉)

Some other things that could have gone through Joyce's head:
-Her daughter was in a bad relationship, is so emotionally wrecked that she's hurting herself (blood on the clothing) and is so off the deep end that she's making up ridiculous stories to try and cover it up
-The strangers coming around are dangerous, her daughter's part of some kind of cult
-Her daughter is somehow tangled up in a gang, maybe the kind of behaviour that got her expelled from Hermey, maybe worse

All are pretty reasonable assumptions from Joyce's point of view. Not only that, but Buffy isn't even willing to talk about it. Her daughter, who's acting like a totally different person, who she gave birth to and raised, is just tossing her aside and ignoring her concerns, her confusion, her fears. (She doesn't know why, what's going on, remember)

All this happening in just a few short minutes.

I think that the ultimatum (walk out this door- don't even think about coming back) was Joyce panicing, grasping at her last hope to take some kind of control over the situation. She can't physically stop Buffy, she can't call for help, everything's confusing and crazy and moving way too quick and now her daughter is about to walk out to god knows where-- what else is there for her to do? She threatens Buffy with the only thing she has left, more out of despiration I think, than anything. She, I don't think, expected Buffy to walk out after that.

So yeah, Joyce was obviously in the wrong here, but I think that under the circumstances, it's understandable. She was just trying to regain some kind of control in an unknown and chaotic situation (in the only way she knew how) and it unfortuanatly, ended for the worse.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

So Buffy had been in an asylum before, for the same thing that she was referring to, and what was Joyce's reaction like ?.
The alarm bells should have rung, Joyce should have tried to help her daughter.

 

[wehappyfew]

That was one of the best scenes in Buffy history. Joyce and Buffy were both hurt.

That's the best way to put it.
Joyce was hurt that she hasn't known her daughter at all, she's hurt that Buffy felt that she couldn't trust her mom (which isn't even why she didn't tell her mom), she feels like she hasn't even been able to protect her own daughter.
Buffy's hurt that her mom couldn't figure it out...buffy's hurt that her mom is hugging her and telling her that everything's gonna be okay...buffy's comrade has just been killed and the whole world may be sucked into hell! it was just a tense situation.

Acting out of that hurt led Buffy to run away. She felt that she had no one else to turn to. That's pretty much the last thing that Angelus said to her....that last little nibble. "What's left?"

...to be honest, i've always wanted to know what the letter said.

 

[definition of insane]

About the "if you leave this house, don't ever come back" thing. I would just think it's a last resort type of remark. But at the same time it's a bit like a 5 year old trying to run away because they got in trouble. They know they're going to come back eventually (if they even leave the house at all). I feel as though Joyce thought "sure, I said this thing I probably shouldn't have said and Buffy left but she's just letting off steam and she'll be back" so it was more upsetting to her to think that Buffy would actually take it literally and just leave, seemingly to never return.

 

[Joyce Summers]

I know the last reply to this was like a month ago but I'm new and browsing. hehe.

I honestly don't think Joyce over reacted, I just think both she and Buffy handled a difficult situation badly. Like a few of you said, Buffy had been admitted to a mental institution before for going on about vampires, so understanably Joyce was gonna think this all crazy talk, that her daughter was having a relapse. I mean, if you seriously consider your teenager daughter (real, hypothetical or otherwise) suddenly saying to you 'yeah, i slay vampires' your first instinct would not be, in my opinion, to believe them.
And I know she had just seen a vampire dusted in front of her but Joyce is pretty much Denial Queen and mix that in with the shock and speed at which everything was happening and everything is going to be pretty confusing for her. I mean she does try, when she's listening in to Spike and Buffy conversation/confrontation.
Spike: Me and Dru for Angel.
Joyce: Angel your boyfriend?
...
Joyce: So you didn't kill that girl?
Buffy: Of course not
Joyce: Did she explode like that man out there?
Buffy: She was a Slayer Mom
Joyce: Like what you are...?

But her whole reaction is so totally like how a parent would typically react when a child comes out revealing they are gay. Case in point: "Honey are you sure your a vampire Slayer? I mean have you tried not being a Slayer?"

She was slowly losing control of a situation Joyce felt she desperately needed to take control of. Everything was spiralling off in all directions and fantasy and reality were starting to bleed together. We already know from 'School Hard' that Joyce places authority on ability not status as she says to Buffy 'Principal Snyder said you were a trouble maker and I could care less. I have a daughter who can take care of herself and thinks of others in a crisis. No matter what dumb teenage stuff you think you need to do, I'm gonna feel better knowing all that.' and despite Snyder being in charge she tells him to follow Buffy's orders as she knows what she's doing and even critisises him for not following them 'Snyder: And I say this is not happening! Joyce: Oh well then! I guess the danger's over'
So, when, in Becoming, Buffy shows how much ability and power she has Joyce also realizes on some subconscious level that she doesn't have that authority/control over her daughter like most parents have, so she tries to reason, she grasps at straws, she demands explanation but eventually has to resort to pulling rank 'if you walk out of this house, don't even think about coming back'. Buffy walking out, no matter how somberly, shows that she has the greater ability and so the power/authority. I don't believe Joyce meant truly what she said though. Like most of you have said, it was something said in the heat of the moment. And you can't blame her- when asking for an explanation all she gets told by her daughter is 'just have another drink'.
As for the blaming of Giles, it's easier than blaming herself and Giles stands for all that her daughter is forced to be hence the blameage. The two do try to make nice again though in Dead Man's Party when they start talking Art.

 

[Kean]

I know the last reply to this was like a month ago but I'm new and browsing. hehe.

I honestly don't think Joyce over reacted, I just think both she and Buffy handled a difficult situation badly. Like a few of you said, Buffy had been admitted to a mental institution before for going on about vampires, so understanably Joyce was gonna think this all crazy talk, that her daughter was having a relapse. I mean, if you seriously consider your teenager daughter (real, hypothetical or otherwise) suddenly saying to you 'yeah, i slay vampires' your first instinct would not be, in my opinion, to believe them.
And I know she had just seen a vampire dusted in front of her but Joyce is pretty much Denial Queen and mix that in with the shock and speed at which everything was happening and everything is going to be pretty confusing for her. I mean she does try, when she's listening in to Spike and Buffy conversation/confrontation.
Spike: Me and Dru for Angel.
Joyce: Angel your boyfriend?
...
Joyce: So you didn't kill that girl?
Buffy: Of course not
Joyce: Did she explode like that man out there?
Buffy: She was a Slayer Mom
Joyce: Like what you are...?

But her whole reaction is so totally like how a parent would typically react when a child comes out revealing they are gay. Case in point: "Honey are you sure your a vampire Slayer? I mean have you tried not being a Slayer?"

She was slowly losing control of a situation Joyce felt she desperately needed to take control of. Everything was spiralling off in all directions and fantasy and reality were starting to bleed together. We already know from 'School Hard' that Joyce places authority on ability not status as she says to Buffy 'Principal Snyder said you were a trouble maker and I could care less. I have a daughter who can take care of herself and thinks of others in a crisis. No matter what dumb teenage stuff you think you need to do, I'm gonna feel better knowing all that.' and despite Snyder being in charge she tells him to follow Buffy's orders as she knows what she's doing and even critisises him for not following them 'Snyder: And I say this is not happening! Joyce: Oh well then! I guess the danger's over'
So, when, in Becoming, Buffy shows how much ability and power she has Joyce also realizes on some subconscious level that she doesn't have that authority/control over her daughter like most parents have, so she tries to reason, she grasps at straws, she demands explanation but eventually has to resort to pulling rank 'if you walk out of this house, don't even think about coming back'. Buffy walking out, no matter how somberly, shows that she has the greater ability and so the power/authority. I don't believe Joyce meant truly what she said though. Like most of you have said, it was something said in the heat of the moment. And you can't blame her- when asking for an explanation all she gets told by her daughter is 'just have another drink'.
As for the blaming of Giles, it's easier than blaming herself and Giles stands for all that her daughter is forced to be hence the blameage. The two do try to make nice again though in Dead Man's Party when they start talking Art.

someone studied psych!

I totally agree though, what Joyce said was an idle threat. nothing more. But I still believe Buffy would have left regardless after killing Angel.

 

[Joyce Summers]

in fact someone *tried* to study psych and quit, haha, but i'm glad I come across as the pysch 101 type there. makes me sound more....academic and all-knowledgable hehe. Satisfaction here. And yeah, I agree, Buffy would have left anyway, because isn't that basically what she says in Dead Man's Party? About how there was nothing that anybody could do she just had to deal with it on her own. and she tells Joyce that she didn't run away to punish her (despite Xander's added dig of 'yeah well you did'

 

[Kean]

well you sound waaaaaaaaay academic!!

The scoobies attitude when Buffy comes back has always driven me mad!! I mean they basically let her know at every oppertunity during season 2 that whats happening is all her fault, no consideration that the girl is DEVASTATED!!! Then when she leaves they all think she's living it up!! even though Giles had his suspicions that Buffy had to kill Angel (his actions in Faith, Hope and Trick pretty much prove that) and also Willow said she felt the spell work, and they knew only Angel's blood could close the vortex, so when they went back and Acathla was dormant and no trace of Angel or Buffy what did they think had happened!!

 

[Jules]

I think that Joyce was probably a little angry with herself aswell and was taking it out on Buffy. She had just found out that her daughter was a Slayer, I bet a part of her was wondering how she could have missed something so huge when all the facts were in front of her. Buffy's out all the time, Joyce washing blood out of Buffy's clothes. I bet it was all starting to make sense to Joyce and it was something she was wishing didn't.

 

[palabravampiress]

I agree with the majority here: Joyce and Buffy both reacted badly, but I can't blame Joyce for "pulling rank" as a last resort.

That said, I grew up in a neighborhood in which getting kicked out was a thing that happened sometimes. I never thought it would happen to me, but it did happen to kids I knew - even to people in my family. I had one cousin who burned down her house. She got kicked out. I had another cousin who engaged in physical altercations with his mother. He got kicked out. Drugs, gangs, violence... things of this nature, things that made the home unsafe for younger siblings or other family members, were the kinds of things that got kids kicked out. In most cases, police had already been involved. In some cases, the kids were taken into custody. The parents were always terribly torn up about it, but what else could they do? Usually, the kids would learn their lessons through facing the hardship of fending for themselves and be slowly welcomed back into the family fold. The parents tended to keep good tabs on where the kids were staying, too. Sometimes, the situation was so out-of-control that not even this last resort helped.

When Joyce gave her ultimatum, then, I may have had a different perspective on things than most people. I thought she meant it. And I thought she was justified. Now... when Buffy didn't go and take up residence in Xander's basement and, instead, disappeared with Angel, I thought that's when the situation backfired. I thought the time apart and away was good and needed. If Joyce had been able to keep tabs on Buffy instead of Buffy letting her think she was dead or worse... maybe it actually would have turned out well.

Okay... I can't finish my thoughts on this because the hubby and the roommate are seriously freakin' out about wanting to go to the grocery store. It appears as if I am needed for this impromptu expedition, so I guess I'll say more later.

 

[EvanCooper93]

I don't think she was. She was being rational. Buffy made a little remark "You should have another glass." (something along the lines of that) and Joyce got angry. She's only human...

 

[vicp]

I think Joyce was just acting the 'typical' mother - she'd been hit with this bombshell all at once having seen that vamp being staked outside then learning her daughter was the slayer after she thought she was involved with what happened in the library. I think she reacted quite calmly in comparision- could you imagine if you have never even heard of a 'hellmouth' then all of a sudden to find your living on one.
After her outburst , ' you leave this house, don't even think about coming back', you see her reaction after Buffy leaves. This is a mother who has finally lost control of her daughter and knows now that she must now learn to adjust to her daughters destiny - unfortunately she wasn't able to tell her the next morning as Buffy left Sunnydale. And don't forget Buffy was under a lot of pressure at that point not only did she have the 'scooby gang' to think about she had Spike and Dru and Angel and that Acathla dude as well. To be honest she could said a lot worse then she did .

 

[Vicariously]

Being a mom myself I can tell you that I would probally respond a whole lot worse. First and foremost I would like to think that when my kids are older I would know what went on in their lives (in relation to Joyce who didn't have a clue) But I can imagine if for some reason I was kept in the dark about what my sons were really doing everyday and I found out that they were doing anything that would put their lives in danger, I would flip! I cant imagine being in Joyce's shoes. I mean seriously, how would you handle it if someone told you everything you thought to be a myth wasn't? That, "Hey my job is to kill demons before they kill me and one day one just might...gotta go toodles!" I am sure thats one statement that would leave you sitting there going WTH? And if it was your child?!?!?! seriously now, you wouldn't take it well I am sure. I mean what would you do say, "sure honey, go have fun risking your life?!" Hard? NOPE...not at all!

 

[The Chosen]

IMO, Joyce and Buffy both acted horribly. Maybe it was because they wanted it to make it easier to say goodbye, because if you're mad at someone it's always way simpler to go, "Seeya," than if you just had a heart-to-heart. I don't think Buffy wanted to leave her home when Joyce gave her that choice, but ultimately it's what she knew to be right.

 

[SoBlind]

I don't think Joyce was a loon, and I don't think she was being too hard. I do believe that she was bluffing, thinking that Buffy, even if she did "go out that door," would be coming back. I also believe that she was being a protective mother who had just suddenly had a load of to say the least extremely disturbing news dumped on her. "I'm sorry, Mom, but I have to go out and kill a bunch of things that you only thought existed in horror movies, and, by the way, my boyfriend, the one I slept with at the age of sixteen? Well, he's a four hundred year old vampire who's planning on destroying the world, and I have to go and try to stop him. I may not survive the night, but if I do, could we please sit down in the morning over toast and juice and discuss this then? Oh, and just in case you're worried about me getting hurt, you don't have to, really, because I've already been killed once. It's no big thing. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've gotta go and save the world...again." Nope, I think Joyce showed remarkable restraint in not trying to tie her daughter up and call the guys at the funny farm to see if they do night pick up.

Add to all of that (and we didn't know this at the time, but Joyce certainly must have been thinking about it) Buffy had already had psychiatric care once before for seeing monsters. Joyce must've been thinking that her daughter was having a relapse.

i dont think she was over-reacting either...but for different reasons. joyce didnt know that angel was a vampire, that he was gonna destroy the world and that buffy had been killed before. i think she was just pissed off because buffy wouldnt listen to her. buffy was being rude ("just have another drink, mum!") and then pushed her against the table when joyce grabbed her. i think the comment "if you leave this house dont even think about coming back" was just plain anger and frustration for not being able to control her daughter

 

[InsaneMystic]

No surprise to anyone who knows my previous posts on Joyce, I guess, but I think Joyce was very wrong here. After all, she SAW Buffy stake a vamp on her doorstep. Call me unconventional if you want (I certainly am, among other things in the regard that my talent for denial is about diametrically opposite than Joyce's), but if someone proves to me that "monsters are real" by killing one in front of my eyes, I'd instantly be willing to humbly defer to them in any matter of saving the world form demonic apocalypse... no matter if they're 17 and my daughter or not.

And if Joyce had thought even for a second that Buffy had a psychotic relapse, well she should have called the "funny farm guys"... to pick up herself. There's a point where denial just can't be called sane anymore.

 

[T.I.P]

I agree almost 100% with Insanemystic, and i also thought when Buffy returned in s3, Joyce had a bad attitude about it, ecspecially in Dead mans party and Band candy(''i just dont want you driving, buffy'').
But if someone kills a vamp in front of you, you may not like it, but you've got to accept it.

 

[Fake Shemp]

i think oz handled it a lot better,lol, "no actually it explains a lot."

but nope i dont think she was too harsh, she needed to be for that whole "what do you have left?" thing to work in the fight with Angelus.

 

[Lou]

I thought this part was one of the HARDEST parts to watch. Joyce's reaction seemed WAY out there. It would be one thing if Buffy was rebelling or smoking pot in the bathroom. But, she knew that Buffy didn't have a choice in the matter when it came to being a Slayer. She was it and that was all.

I understand Joyce not liking it and not being happy. But I always have equated her reaction to being in a packed school gym when a mad gunman comes in and shoots up the place and you're kid is the only one that's been EMT trained and saying, "If you go help those people, I'm kicking you out of the house."

It was the only point I was REALLY upset with Joyce, most of the time, I completely adored her.