Question Was Lilah & Darla's ghost a manifestation of the First?

[Napoleon]

When Wesley was about to behead Lilah, there stood her ghost speaking to Wes. Was that the first or was that just a hallucination of Wes? Also, why wouldn't Wes notice a dagger sized stab wound on Lilah' neck? You know, a thick dagger, made of the Beast's bones.

ON TOPIC: A review, to finalize a consensus as well, was Darla appearing before Connor a manifestation of the First or was truly Darla sent by TPTB?

If that truly was Darla's human soul... she wouldn't know the feeling of being pregnant or connected to Connor because Darla's human soul left her dead body when Drusilla sired her. Connor's soul was what connected himself to the vampire Darla. Darla's human soul was no longer around at this point. So I vote, it's a manifestation of the First. You?

 

[janas]

I believe that there isn't connection between Ats S4 and S7 BtVS, the shows were aired on different networks and crossovers were impossible, except for the last episodes of both series. (Home/Chosen)

Regarding Darla if she was a manifestation of the First Evil in that case she was playing on the wrong side. The appearing of Darla had the purpose to dissuade Connor from killing the girl and prevent the Jasmine's birth and I don't see any advantage for the First, that instead (assuming a connection between the two stories) would have many advantages if Jasmine was born.

Besides, if that was a manifestation of the First, this way you delete the redemptive aspect of Darla. She died sharing the soul with his son, it's normal that she remember everything.

 

[thetopher]

I believe that there isn't connection between Ats S4 and S7 BtVS, the shows were aired on different networks and crossovers were impossible, except for the last episodes of both series. (Home/Chosen)

Regarding Darla if she was a manifestation of the First Evil in that case she was playing on the wrong side. The appearing of Darla had the purpose to dissuade Connor from killing the girl and prevent the Jasmine's birth and I don't see any advantage for the First, that instead (assuming a connection between the two stories) would have many advantages if Jasmine was born.

Besides, if that was a manifestation of the First, this way you delete the redemptive aspect of Darla. She died sharing the soul with his son, it's normal that she remember everything.

Apart from the whole Faith/Willow crossover thing, right? 🙂

I always took the scene where Lilah is talking to Wes to be what he was imagining, not a ghost. (he doesn't react to her like a ghost for example)
He was working through various emotions- guilt, depression and grief. He'd seen the demon wearing his friends face kill a woman he had feelings for. Wesley was trying to rationalise his emotions; could he have saved Lilah? Had she actually loved him?
At the end of it Wesley came to the conclusion that he must save Angel. So he rallies the troops and then goes and fetches Faith.

The Darla thing is a little more tricky, it could've been the First I suppose, trying to scupper Jasmine's plan, but I don't think so.
Firstly, I never saw any evidence that the First was that smart, and the 'manipulations' by ghost Darla are very persuasive. From what we've seen of the First previously, I just didn't buy it.
And I'd like to think it was Darla, the actual good part of her (from when she was human) trying to save Conner from doing his first truly evil act (killing an innocent), not yet another evil thing trying to manipulate him.

 

[Xin Rong]

I don't think it was the first, I get why it would have maybe been the first as Darla, as Jasmine's World Peace would not have been beneficial to its Sunnydale plans, but I prefer to think of it as Darla. I love that scene so much, it would pain me if it were revealed to be inauthentic.

Lilah was definitely not the first, IMO, it only goes for big players, so I don't see why it would taunt Wesley, bypassing Angel and co.

 

[Napoleon]

But that's the thing though... it couldn't be Darla's human ghost. Darla's soul left her body once Drusilla sired her. Everything that happened with Connor was with vampire Darla. Darla didn't have a soul then. Sure, she shared a soul with Connor but that was Connor's soul, not hers.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Oh, wow...I have never thought of this.

It's definitely possible.

 

[Blaze]

You know what I hate about the First...now every time there is an apparition of someone dead, we have to take into consideration that it might be the First. This means that we'll never have a truthful touching moment of someone dead appearing without us having to doubt it. And that sucks.

As for my own opinion, I don't think either were the First.

For Lilah in general, she belongs to W&H, so I take it that any apparition of her is like Wesley in AtF. In that specific scene, it might have just been Wesley's imagination.

For Darla, it just didn't ring like the First. Yes, I'm basing my opinion on the fact that it felt like Darla. Not the most convincing argument, but I'd like to believe it was her.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Napoleon,
when and where was it said on the show that a ghost is a soul.
Darla came back as a ghost, did the show state a ghost can only be if the person it is from had a soul?
Lilah was a ghost. The contract she signed with the senior partners was for life and beyond, so she in death belonged to them.

 

[Napoleon]

Napoleon,
when and where was it said on the show that a ghost is a soul.
Darla came back as a ghost, did the show state a ghost can only be if the person it is from had a soul?
Lilah was a ghost. The contract she signed with the senior partners was for life and beyond, so she in death belonged to them.

You misunderstand me. Darla as a resurrected human (via W&H) had a human soul. That said human soul left her dead body when Drusilla sired her. So all the events that took place past that point, birthing Connor, was the experiences of the vampire Darla and the demonic entity wearing her face. Darla's human soul already left her body the instant her human body died. Vampire Darla was soulless. Vampire Darla shard a soul with Connor but that soul was Connor's. In other words, this human Darla soul/ghost that appeared in front of Connor, does not know what it feels like to be the mother of Connor. Sure, her soul could have been given a preview of what happened by TPTB but she will never truly know the true feelings for Connor. That Darla ghost spoke to Connor as if she knew what it was like to sacrifice herself to give birth to Connor. She doesn't. Only the vampire Darla does. Which makes me wonder, was that the First?

As for Lilah. Yes, W&H owns her even after death. But during the time when Wesley was about to chop her head off, was that her ghost or just the First Evil or just Wesley's imagination?