Was she lying?

actually you just proved my point. buffy was referring to her relationship with angel here, that was the love that didn't last - not the love itself but the relationship wit the loved one in question. and buffy, in the lowest year of her life, really didn't want that that. she wasn't looking for love, she was looking to lose herself and around that time, she was just coming around again. she was burned by her relationship with angel, she would be looking for something different at that point especially seeing as angel was something she could not have.
once again - their love survived through years. every single year during which they were apart, we were reminded on screen (and off but later on screen it was described as "very intense") how much the love and passion was still there. it's not really something that can be ignored, it's a given fact that they were meant for each other in the end, it's the one relationship joss did not break because they were his favorite and he really did put everything into creating it. but be my guest.
but with this particular argument, you actually did help my point.
and about the love that ended and didn't last. you obviously choose to ignore complete scenes and even episodes on both shows, so once again - be my guest. i'm not going to repeat the script as i don't see the need to, it's pointless.

and about giles - that was probably me. but i never once said that he told andrew to tell angel she loved spike, what i said was that he told him to tell angel that buffy did not trust him anymore and did not consider him to be fighting for her cause. 1) we know that buffy wasn't in the least behind andrew being sent for dana, she was with dawn, living her life in rome and 2) it is perfect strategy in regard to angel. these are the buttons to press and giles knew that.
 
T
Tainted Hope
I don't agree with you, but good post. I don't see exactly how she proved your point though...
See even though I'm Bangel and I sure as hell want a Bangel ending, just because there love is eternal does not mean that they will end up together in the end.

They're in different places in their lives right now and we don't even know what condition Angel is in now.

But this just struck me as odd:

1) we know that buffy wasn't in the least behind andrew being sent for dana, she was with dawn, living her life in rome

Even though Wesley or any of the Fang Gang may have contacted Giles and the New Council, we know that Buffy is in direct control. So I completely disagree with this statement. Giles himself probably had to clear sending Andrew to L.A. with Buffy before he could do so. In the corporate world of slayage and the Council, Buffy is CEO.

Things change.

You might always love someone but that doesn't guarantee that you will retire and live with them happily in a two bedroom condo in Boca Vista, Florida.

People love more than one person in their life and I know that you might say this person is your soulmate at a certain point, but in the end you find someone you love more.

"I Will Remember You" is the greatest on screen love that I have ever seen, but things do change.
 
you're right in a sense. in both. about the statement you disagree with, that was a speculation of mine that i found to make sense rather than a script-fact so obviously it's open to many opinions and debates. about the buffy and angel not ending up together, i should clear myself: in "chosen" they resumed their promise of five years ago from "bad eggs" of only seeing each other in their future and "five years from now (then)". so they promised each other their future. whether that will actually happen, whether they will really end up together? i don't know. i don't even know if angel is alive for a fact. but they promised their futures to each other and as a b/aer, that's enough for me.
 
once again - their love survived through years. every single year during which they were apart, we were reminded on screen (and off but later on screen it was described as "very intense") how much the love and passion was still there. it's not really something that can be ignored, it's a given fact that they were meant for each other in the end, it's the one relationship joss did not break because they were his favorite and he really did put everything into creating it. but be my guest.
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I don't recall Joss Whedon being a big fan of either the Bangel or the Spuffy relationships. The only reasons he brought Angel back in the first place, because Angel was the only way for Buffy to get her hands on the amulet; and 2) many of the Bangel fans kept complaining about a need to see the Buffy/Angel relationship again and again.

In the end, it's all in the eye of the beholder (or the viewer). Many of the Bangels and a good deal of the media believed that Buffy was never in love with Spike and that Angel was her only love. Many of the Spuffy fans believed that Buffy's feelings for Angel had died and that she had fallen in love with Spike. There are many fans who believed that Buffy was and remained in love with both vampires. And there are those who believed that she was better off without both vampires. Everyone sees what he or she wants to see. Like I said, it's all in the eye of the beholder. And in the end, there is no true answer on the matter.
 
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Cordelia
You're right. Joss made that pretty clear in the commentary for Chosen that he wasn't really a fan of either shipper. He preferred Buffy being alone & cookie doughish :D
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Cookie Dough
No, he's a fan of Buffy/Angel because he had a B/A picture hanging on his wall at ME, he said his favorite episode is IWRY because it makes him cry, their love transcends everything, and they're just so cute together. I'm pretty sure he's a fan.
I agree.

Well that is unless we get another glimpse of the Buffyverse, whether it be a movie, tv show, comic book, novel, et cetera.

I would hope that Joss would resolve the love triangle in the end, but knowing him, he'd leave it more open ended than ever...
 
well i'll just repeat what i said before and slightly rephrase it. i'm not for a second going to go down to 5-years-old level and link to direct quotes. nor am i going to quote episodes and bring any further examples because it's pointless as you've already proven to ignore everything that so much as suggests you are wrong. yes, i'm a b/a-er (here's a big secret). but while i do love my relationship, i *don't* ignore facts to make it look better, it just so happens things did work out in its favor in the end.
anyway, arguing about it like this is pointless. yes there are some things that are in the eye of the viewer, but these things are not.

see the thing is that i don't know about you guys but i don't have time to surf the net all day for direct quotes. and other than that, i don't see howi can debate with a person who disregarded entire episodes and scenes in the show that pointed to other opinion than hers even before i brought them as an example? so in all honestly, if this decision makes me immature - i am and proud of it.
 
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SlayerThe
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C
Cordelia
Please do not attack the beliefs of a member but if you're going to successfully debate, do it in a manner that only debates the ideas at hand.
It's not that we do not consider your points/theories/beliefs to be invalid, it is just that you seem to have no respect for the words of others.

When someone posts something directly from the script or from an episode commentary by Joss from one of the Buffy DVDs, it usually takes precedence over all other facts.

You have the basic human right to believe what you want, as do others, but it is not wise to have such disregard for cold hard facts.

I myself have been mid-debate when others have shown me direct quotes/commentary.

But that doesn't mean that you have to believe it. It's just that you have to have respect for other member's beliefs. You don't have to agree with them, but you certainly don't have to give them negative karma for it also.
 
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Tainted Hope
Yup, makes sense.
i'm sorry, but i don't remember disregarding anything at least because i don't remember getting any actual examples or links to direct quotes, which i seem to be expected to do.
 
In the past I have used quotes from the script in debate with yourself and you just shrugged it off.

It reminds me that there are still people in existence who believe the earth is flat...

But there is a thing called entitlement to one's own belief and I am not going to try to persuade you.
 
funny. that is actually something i can say myself.
and for the record, i don't actually remember arguing with anything that wasn't open to debate.
 
Let's please get back on subject here. If there are any issues any members have with this debate, please contact a moderator. Thank you.

Wicca said:
yes, i'm a b/a-er (here's a big secret). but while i do love my relationship, i *don't* ignore facts to make it look better, it just so happens things did work out in its favor in the end.
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Actually in the end Buffy was with the Immortal, so I don't see how that is any more of a Bangel ending than a Spuffy one...
 
Wow, this is still going on --what a debate!

I still stand by the "Its all over now, the rest is left up to our imagination" approach. I mean everybody has their own favorite relationship, and they'll defend it to the end--plus everyone sees things through their own eyes, so everyone has their own beliefs and opinions--I'd just leave it at that and spend our debate energy fighting for a motion picture or something--any news on that?

Haha, feel free to keep debating though, its very fun
 
Cordelia said:
I actually just watched the commentary for Chosen last night and from what Joss said it seemed like he meant for her to really love him. But that doesn't mean she was IN love with him...
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Excellent point right there!
 
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Cordelia
thanks :)
Was Buffy lying when she said "I love you" to Spike? That's a tough one because it has no clear cut answer. It was a white lie. Because, it was for conforting rather than for deceiving, no harm done. It was a tactful way to say Spike goodbye for Buffy and she said it so. Other than that, I don't think it held further and future promises. 😉
 
It was a lie!, if it wasn't she would have said something after he said no you don't, if the person you loved was about to die, you would want them to know that you loved them, if she had said it again I would have believed it - and I am a huge anti-Spuffy person.
 
I don't think Buffy was lying. She had never loved Spike before because he was the selfish evil vamp "trying" to be good while still being semi-bad. At the end of Chosen, I think that Buffy finally saw that Spike had changed and that he wasn't the same as he used to be. She had always had feelings for Spike but I think that when she saw what Spike was sacrificing, that she was sure she loved him. And in the sense of her not repeating herself, I understand why she wouldn't tell him again. I mean the hellmouth was collapsing and Buffy didn't have time to stay there and argue with Spike continuously telling him she loved him.
 
All she had to say was I do, there was no need to have an agruement, if someone said they loved you and you said they didn't but then they confirmed it again, you would believe them.
She said it to support spike, to show him that she cared by telling him what he wanted to hear.
 
Yeah but there was a whole big thing going on. Spike was on fire, his chest was exploding, the big cave was collapsing and everyone else was gone. And what makes you think Spike would have believed her even after that I do? Spike was stubborn and I'm sure it would have taken more than an I do to convince him otherwise.
 
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