Was Spike always a love sick puppy?

[zobothehobo]

The most common complaint I hear about Spike is that he got lame when they made him a love sick puppy. But I never quite understood that. I mean, everything he did in season 2, he did for Drusilla and his love for her. He even helped save the world. As a soulless chipless vampire, he helped save the world because of his love for Dru. If that's not a love sick puppy, I'm not sure what is.

I mean personally, I think he was always controlled by his emotions of love. I mean we can go in order we saw things in from season 2 on... or from his character's chronology with William to William the Bloody (soulless Spike) to chipped Spike to soulful Spike and still everything he did was with the love of a woman in mind.

So my question is to those who don't like Spike (and this is not to be an arugment more of a question), was Spike always a love sick puppy, or did he become that way when he fell in love with Buffy? In other words, what changed between his love for Dru and his love for Buffy?


Also a disclaimer: I've posted threads sort of similar to this in the past and been criticized for it. I am not posting this thread to create an argument. Just like I, personally, do with everything... I am trying to understand people of different opinions.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

1. I'm always so relieved, Z, when I see a thread out of the corner of my eye about Spike (and the hair on the back of my neck begins to rise), and then I see that you are the initiator!

2. I need to give this some serious thought--brush off my lack-of-BB dust. Will return soon!

 

[wickedtiger86]

Well, I can't answer as someone who doesn't like Spike . . .since I love him. 😀

But!

I think he certainly always was. It's one of the things about him that didn't change when he became a vampire. Cecily, Dru, and Buffy.

I guess one could argue that before them, there was his mother, albeit a different kind of love in that case.

Love has always been his main motivation. And usually it's some kind of love, platonic or romantic that drives him.

Like even in season 5 of AtS he stayed with the gang there because of Fred.

 

[white avenger]

I don't qualify as one of those who don't like Spike, but I think "love sick puppy" doesn't describe him as well as "hopeless romantic." We never actually saw for sure, but I have always imagined William as a lonely boy, bullied by his much larger and more aggressive peers, who found solace and refuge between the covers of books. Most likely, stories about the brave and noble knights of Arthur and Charlemagne were his favorites, because they always depicted heroes with pure hearts and strong resolve overcoming tremendous monsters, demons, and evil knights, all in the service of their Lady Fair. Most likely, he grew up dreaming of someday, somehow, being a hero like that with a Lady to protect, love, and defend. The first such, though in a warped sort of way, was Drusilla. You can see it in every scene that they share together. Okay, granted, they were both murdering blood sucking monsters, but nobody's perfect. William made allowances. Dru became the damsel in need of his services, and he was happy, or at least thought that he was, with his lot in life.

Then along comes the Initiative, the infamous chip, and the Third Slayer.

And, once more, the wannabe knight finds himself a damsel in need of defending (Okay, she didn't really NEED his protection, but, little by little, he managed to force himself into her life, to earn her respect, and even her trust. But, unlike Dru, Buffy actually WAS the sort of lady who any knight worth his spurs would die to serve. And, unlike Dru, Buffy inspired Spike to finally BE that noble knight, even if his interpretation of nobility did slightly, and sometimes more than slightly, fall short of heroes like Galahad, Lancelot, and Ogier. And, like all of the really great knights, eventually he even went out on a great quest in order to honor, please, and earn the love of his Lady Fair. And there's even a happy ending for our young knight. He proves himself to his Lady Fair, and she is so impressed with his loyalty, honor, and affection that she nsmes him, above all others, as her one true Champion, and he gives his life in her service, defeating an army of ogres in the process.

(Okay, that's a bit more than an answer to the original question, but I got on a roll here. You'll just have to take that into consideration)

Original question:

"was Spike always a love sick puppy, or did he become that way when he fell in love with Buffy?"

Spike was NEVER a love sick puppy. He was a knight in search of a Lady, a Quest, and a Noble Act Of Heroism. He just PRETENDED to be a love sick puppy because Joss wrote him that way originally, back when he was just another fictional character. Once he actually came to life for the fans, we got to know him and we realized that the real Spike is the classic hero personified. No puppy at all.

 

[Zeppo]

When being referred to as "lame once he's a lovesick puppy" it's just a way to differentiate between villian Spike and pining-for-Buffy Spike, with a bit of lightness or insult depending on who labels him that.

To me, you're right. He always was like this. The difference between Dru and Buffy is that he had Dru. When elated, we all become the "best" we can be, or at least feel like it, so he was this total bad-ass villian who would do anything for his gal.

Then she dumped him and he resorted to drunkingly crawling back to Sunnydale and kidnapping all in an effort to get his love back. I mean, he sought out such means in "Crush" in trying to make Buffy understand. When Spike falls for someone and it doesn't go his way he's dangerous and pathetic, clearly.

Then, when he falls in love with Buffy he totally looses/trades in his bad-asseness for pathetic and suddenly his role is that of this annoying creature trying to get her, break into her circle, become her right-hand and when she rejects he gets a robot and builds mannequins and shrines for her and ... cries! That's pretty love-sick to me.

I mean, that annoyed me just as much as it annoyed the title character. Only difference is that I didn't eventually feel I needed to have sex with Spike, I still continued to be annoyed by it. But anyway:

To short-answer your question, for me, what changed is litterally the difference between having and not having whomever his eyes were set on. And he always has been a lovesick puppy and it can be dangerous and pathetic. Even once he started boinking Buffy he was getting some edge back, despite being neutered.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I'm another one of the "not really the target group for this thread" bunch, but...

I don't qualify as one of those who don't like Spike, but I think "love sick puppy" doesn't describe him as well as "hopeless romantic."

I kinda don't see the difference... 😛

On a more serious note, everything before the ensoulment at the end of S6 was very consistently "Spike, the romantic". "Dru vs. Buffy" is just replacing the object in the equation; the difference in tone of those two romances being mostly due to (I agree with [MENTION=10496]Zeppo[/MENTION] here) the accessibility of Dru in contrast to Buffy, with the added factor of Buffy's less than enthused reaction to his advances being due to moral reasons (which he wouldn't even understand).

The greatest thing about Spike, to me, is how he managed to go beyond his consistent pattern in S7 and arrive at love, where there was romance before.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Whoops, just skimmed over the part about this being a thread for non-Spike lovers. But like other Spike lovers before me, I will answer anyway. 😛

I love what WA said about Spike being a knight, not a puppy. Love, and his need to please a particular woman, makes him stronger, actually. Yes, he pines. Yes, he wallows. But he gets his strength from love. With Dru, it gave him the confidence and drive he needed to become a(n evil) warrior. With Buffy, it makes him want to become a (good) man. Interestingly enough, it's only when he's a human being that love, or desire, takes away from who he is. This is probably because in the case of Cecily, he is rejected without the chance of reconsideration. Had Cecily eventually come around and returned his affection, I have no doubt that we would have seen a stronger and more confident William.

Anyway, puppy or not, I just can't understand at all that people want to label Spike's persistent affections and devotion as pathetic. Of course, this isn't meant to be an argument and I respect everyone's opinion always, etc. But I think there is a difference between getting tired of a writing style which might arguably at times focus too much on a character's unfaltering and unconditional devotion and labeling such emotions as detrimental to a character's strength.

When he falls in love with Buffy, sure on one hand he's much more mopey and reflective; characteristics which can be considered weak on the surface-- but I think at the same time, he becomes even more "cool," "badass," whatever you want to call it-- than ever. It's the point at which a freaking demon decides to start helping a bunch of humans and begins to show empathy and restraint. Like no other before him. Man, that's cool.

 

[Hale Caesar]

I never had a problem with lovesick Spike.

He was epic in season 2, but I had a problem with him in season 4, that chip was the dumbest idea ever and it was clear they brought him back to please fans but they had no idea what to do with him that whole season. Thank goodness he became awesome again in seasons 5,6 and Angel season 5

 

[prophecygrrl]

I love Spike, but I don't really think of him as a lovesick puppy. Mostly because I think the way he loves can be dangerous (mostly pre-soul). But he's definitely lovesick in some way, lol.

 

[zobothehobo]

I feel I should clarify. By "love sick puppy" I meant controlled and motivated by his feelings of love. Not pathetic. Because to me, being a love sick puppy is a good thing.

 

[Zeppo]

I dunno if you were clarifying for my sake but I knew what you meant. Pathetic to me was his actions when the love was unrequited (save for when he didn't tell Glory about Dawn but there's gonna be some good with the bad and vice versa) and when it was requited, depending on where he was in life, he was liberated and thus not ... pathetic. Of course, I was just trying to explain how love sick puppy would be an insult from a non-Spike fan and how I see pathetic you saw as a good thing, so ... hopefully that clarifies, too.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

First of all, character progression is very important in tv. If they kept him evil, or even less evil but in love with Buffy, I would have been very disappointed and think they couldn't think of anything to do with him.

Second of all, I'm not so sure Buffy would have built trust in him if he stayed a bad ass, even if he was good and working with her. Buffy would probably have a hard time seeing the good in him that he is.

Third, Spike have a soft heart. This is who he really is. He has human emotions, he's not completely the evil vamp he claimed he was. It was mostly a pose. Spike is a love's bitch, he didn't become one, he IS one. He's not a lovesick puppy, he is just more sensitive than most vampires. He's very human who fell for a women who hates evil. Nothing inside him changed, just the outer core, IMO.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Even though Spike has always been driven by his emotions and love for his ladies, he was still a badass vamp in the early seasons... I don't know. I do think the Spuffy 'ship had some beautiful moments in it, but I just prefer Spike before he fell in love with Buffy. He seemed to lose his edge once he fell for her.

 

[brinkster130]

I'm one of the people who has described Spike as a love sick puppy in the later seasons; I don't really mean it as an insult, its just an easy way to describe his attitude/actions. By love sick puppy I mean that he seemed to be completely and totally controlled by his feelings for Buffy.

I think that Spike has always been driven by his feelings for a women, we saw a glimpse of it when he was human then we saw it with Dru and Buffy. The object of his affection has always had huge impact on the person he is/becomes. Its as if he becomes who he believes they want him to be; to me it seemed like he didn't know who he was. I know some people love this about him, but its one of my least favorite things about him.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Its as if he becomes who he believes they want him to be; to me it seemed like he didn't know who he was. I know some people love this about him, but its one of my least favorite things about him.

Thanks for pointing this out! I'm always asking for clarification from fans who like Spike less than I do, and I think this sums up one of the reasons really well. I love this about him, and I can understand that those who don't like this aspect of his nature would have trouble liking Spike, (not that you do completely, but you know what I mean).

 

[This Year's Girl]

I think that Spike has always been driven by his feelings for a women, we saw a glimpse of it when he was human then we saw it with Dru and Buffy. The object of his affection has always had huge impact on the person he is/becomes. Its as if he becomes who he believes they want him to be; to me it seemed like he didn't know who he was. I know some people love this about him, but its one of my least favorite things about him.

Really well put, what a interesting perspective! I agree, Spike was always driven by his feelings. You can even see that with the way he acted with his mum. It makes sense that he was that way and let him get lost in those feelings 'cause he didn't know who he was himself.

 

[Whirlwind]

It seems that whether human or vampire, love is something that Spike always wanted and cherished. While other vampires like Angelus or even Spike's love Drusilla would sleep around, Spike continued to believe in true romantic love. In a lot of ways it is what defined his character, and a lot of the decisions he made on the series are because of this.