Was spuffy just a phase ?

[JustNancee]

I've been thinking lately that buffy and spikes romantic relationship was buffy trying to replace angel and yet still feel or have something that was his --- in this case the whole vampire with a soul --- am i the only one who thinks this ?

 

[Blaze]

I don't believe that Spuffy was just a phase, I think Buffy did develop some genuine feelings for the guy (can't say if it was love, but she cared for him a lot, and she even tells Angel that).

Also, I'm almost positive that if Buffy could have chosen, she would have wanted a non vampire boyfriend to get over Angel, the whole point of them not being together was partially because going out with a vamp sucks.

Finally, I think that by the time she got with Spike, she was over Angel and wasn't looking to replace him (when I say over, I don't mean that she didn't love him any more, I mean that she had moved on with her life).

 

[white avenger]

We're really gonna open that floodgate again?

Okay, whatever else Spuffy was, it most certainly was not Buffy trying to replace Angel with anyone. I have great doubts that anyone could ever replace Angel for Buffy. First loves can never be replaced, they can only be used as a yardstick with which to compare every relationship that comes later.

Season 6 Spuffy was Buffy trying to deal with the darkness in her soul that returning to life created. Season 7 Spuffy was Buffy, knowing first hand what it was like to be soul sick and alone, trying to help Spike through his own dark place.

You can call that love, friendship, pity, or simply a commander trying to keep one of her most powerful and loyal assets at peak efficiency, but you can't in any way call Season 7 an attempt by Buffy to recreate what she previously had with a different ensouled vampire.

 

[ladydorotea]

'Spuffy' was a phase, indeed , but not in a sense of replacing Angel. SMG in all her interviews regarding Spuffy called it more or less 'it was not great love, sure, but it was great sex'. We all, well many of us anyhow, go through this particular phase. There is nothing to be ashamed of, there is nothing to be proud of either. Buffy is only human. Might as well blame her for falling for Parker.

 

[JustNancee]

Its really interesting to see everyone elses point of view.
In a way i think that buffy was using spike slightly especially because i think its clear that she didnt feel as strongly about him as he felt for her.
I took on the view that he was someone just to fill a spot in her heart, especially after angel, even though that was years before. Maybe i feel this way because spike was a vampire and had a soul.

 

[ladydorotea]

The way I saw it , the show tried to go after: 'love of her life' , try to replace it with 'good boy', then when it fails try to fill the emptiness with 'bad boy' then try to rectify the original sin with 'I still care, even though he is not my it'. Vampirism had nothing to do with the essence of it. But surely, many have different views.

 

[JustNancee]

The way I saw it , the show tried to go after: 'love of her life' , try to replace it with 'good boy', then when it fails try to fill the emptiness with 'bad boy' then try to rectify the original sin with 'I still care, even though he is not my it'. Vampirism had nothing to do with the essence of it. But surely, many have different views.

I really like this view. I havent thought about it like that.
Do you think the love she had for spike was real ?

 

[ladydorotea]

I really like this view. I havent thought about it like that.
Do you think the love she had for spike was real ?

It depends on what one means by 'real'. If you mean did she really care whether Spike lived or died after she discovered he went and got his soul just to try and earn her love - then absolutely, yes, she cared. Buffy is no Darla. If you mean would she have had nightmares and visions of Spike haunting her dreams after he burned for the greater good, would she feel like she lost part of her herself, would she mourn to the point of needing to cut all ties with her present life and run - then no. She did not feel like her life has changed forever or in any way seriously after they were over in S6, after he burned in S7, or

Spoiler

after she found out he was not really dead 'undead' in S8.

But it does not mean Spike was not important to Buffy , or that she would not care about him being well. One can be affectionate yet not mortally wounded by separation. The degree of affection is the key.

 

[JustNancee]

I understand where your coming from. In fact agree. But i guess The degree of what they felt and the consequences of them not being together for each individual would differ.

 

[Lyri]

As much as I hate Spuffy, and Spike in general, I have to admit that I don't think he was any kind of phase for Buffy. If he had been, then it would have been over by now, but it isn't. Spike is still a big part of her life going into S10, and though it's largely a platonic friendship now, that romantic undertone will never, ever go away. Because Joss likes the idea that we're all still guessing and arguing about it.

Despite the fact that they're both vampires (and later vampires with souls) Spike and Angel are nothing alike, so I find it hard to imagine Buffy thinking or accepting Spike as any kind of substitute for Angel. Buffy was in a very low point in her life when she started her relationship with Spike, at a time when she needed validation without qualification and Spike provided that, and he's still providing that four (in story) years later because Buffy still needs it.

I don't think Spike will ever be able to pull himself away from Buffy and I don't think that Buffy will ever get to the point where she won't need the kind of unwavering support she gets from Spike.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Yes it was, I dont think it was to get over Angel though, I think she was over that by that stage, but I think it was to get over her own death.

She used him in season 6, and thats were the romance between them ends. I see nothing more then friends in season 7, and if there was romance there they'd be together now in season 8/9 nothings stopping them, she's said "I love you" to him, if she meant it they should be together now, but I dont think they will be more then friends, I think the romantic phase is over.

 

[white avenger]

This is just something that occurred to me, not an argument pro or con either way, but, of all the people in her life that Buffy has cared for and lost, Spike is the only one for whom she made any special effort, much less "kicking down doors," to assure herself that, yes, under Joss Whedonesque law, death is simply a temporary thing, and Spike was, indeed, back, healthy, and more or less happy, with his own mission.

And maybe, just maybe, when she found out that that mission involved making (un)life a living hell for Angel, she decided to just stand back and let the boys have it out, once and for all, whether or not any kind of oil was involved.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

This is just something that occurred to me, not an argument pro or con either way, but, of all the people in her life that Buffy has cared for and lost, Spike is the only one for whom she made any special effort, much less "kicking down doors," to assure herself that, yes, under Joss Whedonesque law, death is simply a temporary thing, and Spike was, indeed, back, healthy, and more or less happy, with his own mission.

And maybe, just maybe, when she found out that that mission involved making (un)life a living hell for Angel, she decided to just stand back and let the boys have it out, once and for all, whether or not any kind of oil was involved.

What special effort?

Also since we know she knew he was back and didn't feel the need to seek him out, and didn't care so much when he came back from season 8 that theory doesn't hold any weight.

 

[EVIL UU]

Buffy was never in love with Spike and Spike/Buffy seized to exist as a romantic non-relationship in "As You Were". Since then nothing of romantic nature has happened between them. Phase is a good enough word for it, I guess.
[MENTION=12593]JustNancee[/MENTION]

was buffy trying to replace angel and yet still feel or have something that was his --- in this case the whole vampire with a soul

It's not about Angel. What Buffy seeks in a relationship is pain, misery and punishment, she's attracted to, in her own words, impossible ones, but hey, at least she's woman enough to admit that she's a crazy masochist. On the top of that, Buffy might just have a vampire fetish - I think that it started with her first ( non-masturbatory? ) orgasm with The Master in "Prophecy Girl".
[MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION]

If he had been, then it would have been over by now, but it isn't. Spike is still a big part of her life going into S10, and though it's largely a platonic friendship now, that romantic undertone will never, ever go away.

That's just pure shipper talk. I know that the writers bait and pander to shippers as much as they can in the comics but Spike is not an isolated case - it's the same with Angel, Xander, Willow and even Riley, but it's just that, shipper pandering. Nothing will ever come out of it.

Shipper pandering. I hate it, it's so juvenile, ridiculous, disgusting.

 

[white avenger]

What special effort?

Also since we know she knew he was back and didn't feel the need to seek him out, and didn't care so much when he came back from season 8 that theory doesn't hold any weight.

Yeah, but I was getting nervous about all the stuff we were agreeing on. Two in a row! I just knew you couldn't hold back from something like this.

Just out of curiosity though, where does it say that she didn't care so much when he came back in Season 8? Without him and his ship, Buffy and her gang would have had a much harder time bugging out (Catch the clever pun? Bugging out in Spike's Bug... aw, you get it) after the Buffy/Angel smash up.

I'd say that she was pretty glad for Spike's fortuitous appearance, even if she didn't fall on her knees before him with sobs of joy. I might even go so far as to say that he saved the day. Course, I know you'll disagree about that.

We're on a roll, here.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Yeah, but I was getting nervous about all the stuff we were agreeing on. Two in a row! I just knew you couldn't hold back from something like this.

Just out of curiosity though, where does it say that she didn't care so much when he came back in Season 8? Without him and his ship, Buffy and her gang would have had a much harder time bugging out (Catch the clever pun? Bugging out in Spike's Bug... aw, you get it) after the Buffy/Angel smash up.

I'd say that she was pretty glad for Spike's fortuitous appearance, even if she didn't fall on her knees before him with sobs of joy. I might even go so far as to say that he saved the day. Course, I know you'll disagree about that.

We're on a roll, here.

Where does it say she was glad? I'm going off what the character did and said, she didn't seem to care that he was back.

We agree that I dont agree that Spike saved the day though! I dont think realising who was terrorising Buffy months earlier and not bothering to tell her counts as all that heroic, just Spike doing what he does best, looking out for himself (showing up at the last minuet with answers only helps Spike scores points)

 

[VisionGirl]

I don't think Spuffy has anything to do with Angel. But the OP brings up a point. Buffy seems to want "a little monster in her man". So whether that's about being attracted to danger, or finding her darkness mirrored in someone else, or just wanting someone who understands her life, I don't know exactly. Heck, even Riley has that little bit of enhanced soldier (albeit by drugs) thing going for him. Buffy's attempts with completely normal guys (Owen, Scott, Parker) were completely disasters.

 

[white avenger]

Where does it say she was glad? I'm going off what the character did and said, she didn't seem to care that he was back.

We agree that I dont agree that Spike saved the day though! I dont think realising who was terrorising Buffy months earlier and not bothering to tell her counts as all that heroic, just Spike doing what he does best, looking out for himself (showing up at the last minuet with answers only helps Spike scores points)

This is the perfect example of you always seeing the vessel half empty, while see it half full. Whatever Spike's motivations were, his appearance provided Buffy and her team with transportation away from where they were, to where they needed to be. Plus, if he had arrived 2 issues earlier, shouting, "Angel is Twilight, Angel is Twilight!" all of the surprise of the Big Reveal would have been spoiled. Or, if he had arrived an hour before the space frack and transported everyone away, we might never have known what a real hero Angel was by conspiring with a supernatural entity who made the First Evil look like one of Caleb's choir girls. His arrival HAD to be timed precisely for dramatic effect if nothing else.

And if we're getting into the "where does it say" territory, where does it say that Spike didn't set out to tell Buffy about Twilight as soon as he found out, but when he ordered his bug crew to move at top speed, they went into a space/time warp and skipped ahead several weeks or months? If you can interpret Spike's actions and motivations just to suit your own low opinion of him, I can interpret them as Buffy's Champion arriving in the nick of time to save the day.

My vamp can beat your vamp any day!

Now, really, isn't this more fun than all that agreeing crap?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

This is the perfect example of you always seeing the vessel half empty, while see it half full.

I think it's more an example of you making up a glass thats not there, but we digress.

Whatever Spike's motivations were, his appearance provided Buffy and her team with transportation away from where they were, to where they needed to be.

So? They weren't in immediate danger, and they've never had a problem getting places before, Willow still had her magic, she could have zapped them thre.

Plus, if he had arrived 2 issues earlier, shouting, "Angel is Twilight, Angel is Twilight!" all of the surprise of the Big Reveal would have been spoiled. Or, if he had arrived an hour before the space frack and transported everyone away, we might never have known what a real hero Angel was by conspiring with a supernatural entity who made the First Evil look like one of Caleb's choir girls. His arrival HAD to be timed precisely for dramatic effect if nothing else.

I dont see how that matters. I hate blaming something a character does on the writing, if it's written it becomes a character fault not a writers.

And if we're getting into the "where does it say" territory, where does it say that Spike didn't set out to tell Buffy about Twilight as soon as he found out, but when he ordered his bug crew to move at top speed, they went into a space/time warp and skipped ahead several weeks or months? If you can interpret Spike's actions and motivations just to suit your own low opinion of him, I can interpret them as Buffy's Champion arriving in the nick of time to save the day.

My vamp can beat your vamp any day!

Now, really, isn't this more fun than all that agreeing crap?

Spike did, Spike says it, Spike says in issue 36 that it took him ages to gather all the information - had he not wasted all that time and just shown up, Giles could have said what it was straight away and problem sorted. Because Spike took it upon himself to investigate and not tell anyone they wasted ages when they could have sorted it ages ago.

But you right, it's better he didn't, that would have ruined the best day of Buffys life (her words)

🙂

 

[white avenger]

Because Spike took it upon himself to investigate and not tell anyone they wasted ages when they could have sorted it ages ago.

Kind of like another ensouled vampire taking it upon himself to ally with an entity whose plan was to... Aw, let's don't go there again.

Spike is your demon and my hero. That's a fact that is never going to change. And whoever brought the container to the discussion, the half empty/half full analogy still holds true. And saying that Spike's timing was for dramatic effect, just like Angel's was, is a valid argument, whether you choose to see it or not.

I really can't see what you're being all that hard headed for anyway. Angel got Buffy. All Spike got was a space ship full of oversize cockroaches. But then again, Spike didn't get to keep the ship, so that might mean that Angel won't get to keep...

Maybe Buffy and Angel are the ones who were just a phase.