Was spuffy just a phase ?

[NeonNightLight]

Well, lots of people are going to definitely have different opinions on this. I definitely saw Buffy/Spike as a phase in season 6 and was waiting for their relationship to go up in flames (which it coincidentally did in Chosen). I guess a better word would be temporary. I never saw Spike having a big positive impact on Buffy, and when he died I felt that was pretty much the end of it. One could classify their time together as destructive, beautiful, whatever they want, but to me, their relationship was simply not something that could, or would last.

Like others have said, I don't think Buffy was trying to replace Angel; she was just trying replace her feelings of emptiness and used Spike as a mean. One interesting thing, though (and I haven't watched season 6 & 7 for awhile so I might be remembering wrong) is that Buffy seemed to accept a newly ensouled Spike right away. She stood by his side and defended him. On the other hand, with Angel she was a bit more on the unsure side, she hid his return from her friends, and struggled more with being around him. I guess it's because of Buffy's relationship with Angel, she learned to become much more open minded and acceptive of Spike.

But that doesn't stop me from wishing it was Angel who was there to help Buffy during season 6 😛

 

[white avenger]

But that doesn't stop me from wishing it was Angel who was there to help Buffy during season 6 😛

Probably just as well that it wasn't Angel. He would have experienced that "best night of his life" comforting Buffy after the gang threw her out, and he might very well have lost his soul again. Having to fight Angelus AND the First Evil at the same time would have been too much, even for Buffy.

 

[janas]

Spuffy was a phase, but I don't think it was to get over Angel. For Buffy, Angel is irreplaceable. Us don't confuse the devil with holy water, are us? 😛

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Kind of like another ensouled vampire taking it upon himself to ally with an entity whose plan was to... Aw, let's don't go there again.

Nice attempt at deflection, but do you see anyone defending Angels decision? Unlike Spike fans, Angel fans dont tend to defend every little decision, like it was was the greatest heroic choice in history.

Spike is your demon and my hero. That's a fact that is never going to change. And whoever brought the container to the discussion, the half empty/half full analogy still holds true. And saying that Spike's timing was for dramatic effect, just like Angel's was, is a valid argument, whether you choose to see it or not.

No its not. If we're having a discussion about the show, blaming something on dramatic effect is a choice of the writers, it's an argument outside the show, it was obiviously for dramatic effect but because of that in the show it makes Spike as ass for waiting so long.

It's like saying that the only reason Buffy and Angel broke up was becasue Angel got his own show - it may be a point, but within the context of a discussion about characters motives it's irrelevant.

I really can't see what you're being all that hard headed for anyway. Angel got Buffy. All Spike got was a space ship full of oversize cockroaches. But then again, Spike didn't get to keep the ship, so that might mean that Angel won't get to keep...

Maybe Buffy and Angel are the ones who were just a phase.

Cuz I dont care that Angel got Buffy, even though it comes across the opposite, I'm not a massive shipper. My ultimate hopes for the characters aren't that they just get together.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

Angel got Buffy. All Spike got was a space ship full of oversize cockroaches.

Now that's a weird thing to say. I prefer Spike getting a spaceship than getting Buffy ( and may I just vomit here? Buffy's not a piece of meat, can we agree on that? ) when the getting involves brainwashing/roofies and rape. Would you prefer Spike to put on a stupid mask, merge with the big bad in a Caleb-y fashion, completely ruin Buffy's life, murder hundreds of slayers etc just so he could shag her, without her consent on the top of that?

 

[Kean]

Can we not with this whole "getting Buffy" crap. There is not getting of Buffy. She isn't a prize handed to the bestest vampire in the whole wide world. She cannot be earned. She's a person, with her own mind and will. She cannot be awarded to someone.

 

[white avenger]

If we're having a discussion about the show, blaming something on dramatic effect is a choice of the writers, it's an argument outside the show, it was obiviously for dramatic effect but because of that in the show it makes Spike as ass for waiting so long.

And if we're having a discussion about the story as it was presented, using only the facts as they were depicted, all that we can truthfully say is that Spike arrived at that particular moment with the evidence that he had gathered.

Nowhere do we hear Spike say, "I'm gonna wait until Angel tips his hand, because I know that Buffy's gonna go nympho all over him, then when the dust settles, she'll be more impressed with my big entrance and shiny new bug ship."

Nowhere do we hear him say, "If I wait until the very last moment to make my big entrance, Buffy will be more impressed with me and maybe she'll forget all about that, 'No, you don't, but thanks for saying it,' thing and only remember the, 'I love you.' part."

For that matter, we never hear him say, "Buffy needs me, and I must go! Hi Yo Bug Ship, AWAYYYYY!"

All that we know is that he arrived at the particular moment that he did, with evidence and proof that was no longer necessary, and transportation that was. You can call that being an ass if you want to, but it remains only your opinion with no more confirmation than your initial desire to prove Spike to be an ass with ulterior motives. He didn't know what had happened just prior to his arrival, so I seriously doubt that it was anything more than a coincidence.

It would be just as valid an argument to say that Twilight knew that Spike was coming with evidence to prove that Angel was the bad guy, and decided to spill the beans first because it knew that Buffy would go nympho all over Angel, and, while thinking primarily with just her hormones, she would agree to anything that he suggested.

All of that is theory, assumption, and judgement, based on the interpretation of the individual reader, and not necessarily what the writers intended, something that you take great pleasure in accusing me of at every opportunity.

You say Spike's arrival just when he did was premeditated and makes him an ass. I say that Spike's arrival at that moment was him simply arriving at that moment with assistance that Buffy and her friends could use. Neither version is either affirmed nor denied by anything actually presented in the story. What was presented was that Buffy trusted him and made use of his ship, with no accusations of being an ass for waiting so long to show up. Giles never called him an ass. Willow never called him an ass. Xander never called him an ass. Faith, Andrew, or any of the others there called him an ass. I got the opinion that they were grateful for his help, no matter how late he came to the fight.

Maybe, just maybe, Spike really wasn't an ass after all.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

You say Spike's arrival just when he did was premeditated and makes him an ass.

Reread what I wrote thats not what I said. I said he's an ass becasue he knew Angel was Twilight months before, and did nothing to warn anyone.

 

[white avenger]

Reread what I wrote thats not what I said. I said he's an ass becasue he knew Angel was Twilight months before, and did nothing to warn anyone.

Knowing something and being able to prove it are two very different things. It's highly likely that if Spike had reported what he knew without being able to back it up with solid evidence proving that Angel was Twilight, he would have been merely called a trouble making ass, trying to get on Buffy's good side once more while trying to tarnish Angel's spotless behavior.

By the time that Spike got there with his irrefutable proof of Angel's guilt, it wasn't really an issue anymore.

Now, as much as I enjoy our little sparring sessions, we have strayed so far off the original topic that we would need Spike's bug ship to get back to the point of origin. You go ahead and have the last word, not that it will influence me in the slightest, and then let's let the other members discuss whether or not Spuffy was just a phase.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I've been thinking lately that buffy and spikes romantic relationship was buffy trying to replace angel and yet still feel or have something that was his --- in this case the whole vampire with a soul --- am i the only one who thinks this ?

Wow, this is interesting. There's a lot going on in this question. I've never heard this theory before.

Firstly, no, I don't think Buffy's sexual relationship with Spike was a "phase", if that's what you're referring to. Rather, I think Spike had what she wanted or arguably needed at the time, and for the reasons [MENTION=10354]VisionGirl[/MENTION] stated above.

What interests me is the last part of your question regarding their romantic relationship in s7 right? No, I absolutely do not think that Buffy was trying to replace Angel with Spike. At that point, Buffy was over Angel - but that's beside the point. Spike is nothing like Spike, and Buffy knows that. The only thing they have in common is that they now both have souls (though, lately, Angel hasn't acted very much in line with his). Really, you could argue the opposite more effectively: that Spike got his soul for Buffy, to be more like Angel, so she'd love him like she did (does?) Angel.

Buffy got involved with Spike before he had a soul, hence it obviously wasn't about his soul. Buffy never asked Spike to get a soul. She didn't want that. She makes it clear how disturbed she is when she sees him after he comes back.

---------- Post added at 10:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 AM ----------

As much as I hate Spuffy, and Spike in general, I have to admit that I don't think he was any kind of phase for Buffy. If he had been, then it would have been over by now, but it isn't. Spike is still a big part of her life going into S10, and though it's largely a platonic friendship now, that romantic undertone will never, ever go away. Because Joss likes the idea that we're all still guessing and arguing about it.

Despite the fact that they're both vampires (and later vampires with souls) Spike and Angel are nothing alike, so I find it hard to imagine Buffy thinking or accepting Spike as any kind of substitute for Angel. Buffy was in a very low point in her life when she started her relationship with Spike, at a time when she needed validation without qualification and Spike provided that, and he's still providing that four (in story) years later because Buffy still needs it.

I don't think Spike will ever be able to pull himself away from Buffy and I don't think that Buffy will ever get to the point where she won't need the kind of unwavering support she gets from Spike.

This is such a great post, and I totally agree with everything you'd said.

 

[ladydorotea]

As much as I hate Spuffy, and Spike in general

I guess we evolved in different directions then. Because I honestly cannot see what is there to hate about Spike or Spuffy in the comics.

Verily, Spuffy in the comics is not just over, it is presented as if it has never truly was. And that's what finally made me make my peace with Spike as a character - the fact that the comics roughly followed my personal canon for reasons for Spike soul-getting and put Spuffy (peacefully) into the gallery of the verses quirky curious.

I have to admit that I don't think he was any kind of phase for Buffy. If he had been, then it would have been over by now

But it is. Over that is. Totally, completely, and, what's most important in Whedon's shows - peacefully. Down to the point when Buffy can admit it to herself that 'even Spike deserves better than that' ( hanging around her feeling 'piney'), to quote from the source , and then sigh and turn away without needing to explain why the idea of him inviting her to fly away with him is plain silly. It does not mean something bad ain't still happening - look at Fred and Gunn after their final breakup. (He still was unwillingly and unknowingly cause of her death.) But the fat lady had sung on the Spuffy the moment Buffy said something to the point of 'that was mighty studly'.

Spike is still a big part of her life going into S10

He in fact, is not. He was absent for 2/3 of the season trying to come to grips with the idea of being rejected for the emptienth time, and before that he was hanging at the 'edges of her life' to quote from him, waiting to be invited in or acknowledged otherwise - but it never happened before

Spoiler

she got drugged by Andrew and then body-switched

In the end of the day Spike arrived all ruffled and basically woeful over being freind-zoned, then pretended it was all for Dawn's sake only. And still got nothing but nodded acknowledgement - 'ah, you are back , as I knew you would be'.

and though it's largely a platonic friendship now, that romantic undertone will never, ever go away.

It is not romantic undertone, as far as I can see. It is a one-way extreme doormat kind of submissive relationship that was the tone of S4-5. Back to square one, only with a soul. I seriously doubt any serious Spike fan will stand for that, but if they do continue to go this way I will have a mighty laugh. As I said - S9 comics finally made me feel okey-ish about Spike, the same way I was actually feeling after AtF.

Because Joss likes the idea that we're all still guessing and arguing about it.

I think even Joss by now got bored with this particular chewy toy - that's why Masters is writing Spike comic based around S6-7 , and that's why twas no Joss who plotted Spike's arc in S9 post the robot switch.

I don't think Spike will ever be able to pull himself away from Buffy and I don't think that Buffy will ever get to the point where she won't need the kind of unwavering support she gets from Spike.

The more the fools the writers/editors of S10 will be if they would pursue the extreme doormat trope to infinity and beyond. I certainly hope that won't be the case. But with Joss having no story for Spike - as confirmed many times and the last time just recently by fact of Masters writing the comic - and the fandom all resilient to any kind of change you might be proven right. But that still does not constitute 'romantic', only 'tiresome'.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=3210]Joan[/MENTION] the Vampire Slayer

There is no proof it's pandering. What we know is that it's canon.

Spike/Buffy does not exist in vacuum, BtVS is a franchise that eats its own tail, rehashes the stories over and over again and this particular story was also already done on the show...

...with Xander. Unrequited love -> rape attempt -> friendship. Around season 3 there is no doubt anymore that Buffy/Xander is not happening and yet, the show keeps on delivering, as [MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION] put it, romantic undertones between those two. Xander telling Buffy that he still fantasizes about her, in season 4, all those pep talks when he tells her that she's basically ( oh, I'm so bad ) a hell of a woman, his behavior that can be interpreted as jealousy and so on not to mention the blatant stuff from the comics. And they are friends, nothing else, but shippers will ship. Why not throw them a bone once in a while? Pandering, OK?

I think that Spike might get his own Anya very soon, that should make things clear.

 

[white avenger]

I think that Spike might get his own Anya very soon, that should make things clear.

I've said more than a few times in the past, regardless of my primary ship affiliation, Spike and Faith could make beautiful music together if it were written right. No "slam, bam, thank you, ma'am," but a sickeningly sweet adolescent romance, the thing that neither one has ever had and (I think) secretly yearn for.

Just watching the others roll their eyes and shake their heads at all the Spaith giggling, whispering, and smooching would be worth the cost of the books.

And watching Buffy's thinly veiled jealousy would be the icing on the cake.

 

[Kairos]

Spuffy was a product of Buffy's depression, but I don't like to call depression a phase. Say rather that it was a bad time in her life, which is thankfully over.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I think, in determining whether Spuffy was a "phase," it's necessary to note what one thinks of when evaluating Spuffy itself, with regard to the time period in question. If the relationship is considered only in season 6 during which the two are physically intimate and unabashedly destructive, (to each other and to themselves), then I suppose you could call it a "phase."

But if Spuffy is limited to season 6 alone, then I'm not a fan and I don't ship it.

I see Spuffy as something that begins in season 5 with the slow development of a mutual respect and trust, ripening in "Intervention," carrying through and then culminating in that heartrending "I know I'm just a monster, but you treat me like a man" before Buffy's death.

Destruction ensues throughout season 6 and after Spike leaves for Africa, at that point, "Spuffy" as we knew it, as it was, is over. Each character eventually became acutely aware of its toxicity and ended it, Buffy in "As You Were" and Spike after realizing he could never prevent himself from regressing and harming Buffy, as he goes off to get his soul.

Season 7 is Spuffy born anew, in my eyes. I realize that a lot of fans don't share this opinion, and I respect that. But it has a lot to do with my appreciation for the relationship, indeed my eagerness to "ship" them. Buffy considers Spike as a "man" with a soul, and their fondness for one another is something that develops even further without the expectation from either that they will be defined as anything other than friends, companions, teammates. I love the dynamic of their relationship in this season and the bond they share.

As for the comics? Buffy, believing herself to be pregnant, turned to Spike and confessed to him that all she'd wanted to do was to run away with him and start over.

And now Spike is gone, certainly, because he realizes that what he wants with Buffy is something she can't give him, at least not now.

But was it, in its entirety, a phase? Is it over? Not the way I see it, at all.

 

[ladydorotea]

As for the comics? Buffy, believing herself to be pregnant, turned to Spike and confessed to him that all she'd wanted to do was to run away with him and start over.

It has to be noted that the said 'turning to' was about getting an abortion, after jokingly suggesting to Dawn that in her drunken stupor she might have inadvertently had sex with Spike - without remembering it - and that with the rules changed he could have gotten her pregnant. That alone implies complete lack of respect for the gentleman involved, as well as lack of care about hurting his feelings. Meaning she joked about Spike 'possibly' taking advantage of her while drunk, while obviously not believing any of that. What is even more 'romantic' - not- about that particular event was that Buffy neglected to ask Spike if he was 'still in love with her' until after the fact of deciding for both of them that no, she does not want to run away and raise the the drunken sex child with him after all because 'we will end up in a place like that' , i.e. a dingy little hole infested with roaches. Now, how much more not 'romantically-undertoned' one can get than that ?

And now Spike is gone, certainly, because he realizes that what he wants with Buffy is something she can't give him, at least not now.

Which is something he had wanted from her since S4, obviously.

But was it, in its entirety, a phase? Is it over? Not the way I see it, at all.

The question in the original thread was not was Spike's obsession with Buffy was just a phase, because yes, from Spike's PoV it is definitely not so. But for spuffy as in something two-way I believe the comics made it clear that it is.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think, in determining whether Spuffy was a "phase," it's necessary to note what one thinks of when evaluating Spuffy itself, with regard to the time period in question. If the relationship is considered only in season 6 during which the two are physically intimate and unabashedly destructive, (to each other and to themselves), then I suppose you could call it a "phase."

But if Spuffy is limited to season 6 alone, then I'm not a fan and I don't ship it.

I see Spuffy as something that begins in season 5 with the slow development of a mutual respect and trust, ripening in "Intervention," carrying through and then culminating in that heartrending "I know I'm just a monster, but you treat me like a man" before Buffy's death.

Destruction ensues throughout season 6 and after Spike leaves for Africa, at that point, "Spuffy" as we knew it, as it was, is over. Each character eventually became acutely aware of its toxicity and ended it, Buffy in "As You Were" and Spike after realizing he could never prevent himself from regressing and harming Buffy, as he goes off to get his soul.

Season 7 is Spuffy born anew, in my eyes. I realize that a lot of fans don't share this opinion, and I respect that. But it has a lot to do with my appreciation for the relationship, indeed my eagerness to "ship" them. Buffy considers Spike as a "man" with a soul, and their fondness for one another is something that develops even further without the expectation from either that they will be defined as anything other than friends, companions, teammates. I love the dynamic of their relationship in this season and the bond they share.

As for the comics? Buffy, believing herself to be pregnant, turned to Spike and confessed to him that all she'd wanted to do was to run away with him and start over.

And now Spike is gone, certainly, because he realizes that what he wants with Buffy is something she can't give him, at least not now.

But was it, in its entirety, a phase? Is it over? Not the way I see it, at all.

I dont understand how you can see season 5 and 7 as Spuffy and omit season 6, it either has to be omit everything before season 7, or accept it all.

Spike after realizing he could never prevent himself from regressing and harming Buffy, as he goes off to get his soul.

I'm sorry but thats just fantasizing the character, the character has never come to that conclusion, he says it in the show himself, he got a soul to be spiteful, and to be forgiven.

As for the comics? Buffy, believing herself to be pregnant, turned to Spike and confessed to him that all she'd wanted to do was to run away with him and start over.

I'd be odd if this thought didn't pass through her head right after finding out she was pregnant, every thought would have, but she explains it more in detail, says she expects life with him would basically be awful and then tells him he's everything she doesn't want.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I dont understand how you can see season 5 and 7 as Spuffy and omit season 6, it either has to be omit everything before season 7, or accept it all.

Sorry friend, think you misread my post. 🙂 Season 6 is absolutely included, my point is that it isn't the entirety of it, (far from it), and if it was, I wouldn't "ship" it. Spuffy becomes something entirely different in season 7, and again--if one only considers Spuffy to be season 6, then perhaps it is merely a phase inspired by depression and confusion. But even season 7 Spuffy has its roots in earlier seasons; there is a foundation there. Buffy chooses to embrace the aspects of Spike with which she bonded earlier, and forgive him for what he did, as well, because he now has a soul. One can judge her and disagree with her, but this is, essentially, what she does.

I'm sorry but thats just fantasizing the character, the character has never come to that conclusion, he says it in the show himself, he got a soul to be spiteful, and to be forgiven.

He also says he did it to be "the kind of man who would never..to be a kind of man." He chose man over monster when he could have done otherwise, and sure, a huge part of it was to be forgiven by Buffy. It was for his sake, and it was for hers. But as usual, this is not a black and white, either/or scenario.

 

[iShower4free]

Sorry I didn't read the previous posts so if this has been said I apologize. I think Spuffy was intended to e a phase and after the shippers got so into it Wheddon gave them what they wanted. I also think that it is over and done with now though, the story is kinda played out. I personally think angel and Spike need new women but the show has made it clear that Buffy is Angels true love, they leave Spike more up for interpretation.

 

[Robb Stark]

Just as a bit of an abstract thought, and I'm not really leaning one way or the other, it suddenly struck me that Spuffy was intended to be a bit of a phase when the possibility of it was introduced in S5. Spike has a very nice speech in "The Gift" which appears to conclude Spuffy.

Now, this is obviously mitigated somewhat by S6 and S7, where Spuffy is very much focused on (and interestingly, where it is hardly touched on at all in the comics, which kind of led me to Whedon's original intent on the matter), but I thought it was interesting and worth mentioning. Also, when Spike dies in "Chosen" and the comics were a distant possibility, Buffy appears very at peace with how things unfolded. I don't think she was happy Spike died of course, I'm not suggesting that at all, but she seems content by her final smile. Unless it was anticipated that she would make crossover guest appearances on AtS (which of course never materialized) that would involve Spike in some way, that would lead me to think that Whedon always intended for Spike and Buffy's romance to have a definitive ending.

Personally, I don't think Spuffy was a "phase" in the context that's been used here. I think of Spuffy as having an ending, and I don't think that has to be a bad thing. I don't think, because Buffy and Spike may not ultimately end up with one another, that their relationship is somehow minimized or made unimportant. It was hugely important. But the sequence of events in S5 and S7, and even into S5 of AtS and beyond, make me think that, for now at the very least, it's over. That's compounded by the fact that in S5 of AtS and in the comics, the characters are very free to take up with each other, and yet neither chooses to do so. That says a lot to me.

That said, I think the possibility of Buffy and Spike together will always be there, and I have no problem with that either.