Was spuffy just a phase ?

[ladydorotea]

Buffy chooses to embrace the aspects of Spike with which she bonded earlier

You mean she chooses to embrace the mindless boinking in the dark with the soulless creature that made her hate herself? Because honestly, that were the 'aspects of him' that she had bonded with - literally - earlier. Counting the handcuffs and all. The extent of that bondage though was purely self-punishment caused by self loathing, and it ended with attempted violence, that made 'the aspects' run off in search of some new mojo that would make her take him back.

Compare that to 'I am not clinically depressed' to quote from Buffy in the beginning of S9, and then think of why that was exact phrase Joss made her say - before the arc in which she was contemplating 'running away' with Spike, but then realized she hated the idea.

and forgive him for what he did, as well, because he now has a soul. One can judge her and disagree with her, but this is, essentially, what she does.

She might have forgiven the new person with the soul what the soulles shell of him did to her, it is a stretch though to take forgiveness for 'bonding with' and acceptance of sexual violence and darkness. In fact, the 'you are my Dark Place' is Buffy's continuous refrain vis-a-vis Spike in the comics. Hardly romantic, bonding or embracing. Add the 'you are everything my Slayer instincts make me run away from' , 'and I thought Spike was ugly in vamp face', 'even Spike deserves better' and you get a picture that is quite different from embracing or bonding.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

You mean she chooses to embrace the mindless boinking in the dark with the soulless creature that made her hate herself? Because honestly, that were the 'aspects of him' that she had bonded with - literally - earlier.

No, actually! Cool double entendre there, but when I said that she had a "bond" with Spike, I was not referring to their literal physical encounters. Again, my use of the term "bond" actually refers to the friendship (respect and trust) they'd begun to establish in season 5, and the beginning in season 6.

I'll say it one more time: if I thought season 6 was all of the "bonding" that Buffy did with Spike, I wouldn't ship them.

She might have forgiven the new person with the soul what the soulles shell of him did to her, it is a stretch though to take forgiveness for 'bonding with' and acceptance of sexual violence and darkness.

First part of the sentence acknowledges that she forgives him, the second part asserts that it's a stretch that she does? Anyway, the idea is that she chooses to embrace the aspects of his personality that led her to find him trustworthy for several years (this isn't my take on it, she absolutely trusted him otherwise she had a death wish for Dawn), and worthy of companionship, (again--in case it isn't clear let me say OUTSIDE of the physical relationship). And yet she does, also, give him a clean slate as far as his attack is concerned, (to say nothing of the 100 years or so of horrific deeds).

That's a pretty messy concept, sure. Not nice and clean, black and white. Forgive the guy for what he did as a demon but also acknowledge that toward the end, there were many aspects of his character that you embraced. Although it is of course because of this genuine side of the Spuffy connection--the one which has him save her and tell her she must go on living--that when he returns with a soul Buffy chooses to grant him this consideration for forgiveness.

As I said earlier, I realize that many fans take this particular consideration to be highly problematic and I acknowledge and respect that.

Generally, the way it goes in the show, if Buffy sees good in someone/likes a person/respects, trusts a person, and said character takes a nose dive into the realm of personal betrayal (whether due to soulessness or tragic consequence), Buffy forgives. She remembers the connection she'd had before the event, and she chooses to see the offender anew, to varying degrees. It doesn't happen for the first time with Spike, nor the last. Angel, Faith, and Willow are other examples.

In any case, it all sets the stage for what I consider to be a beautiful friendship in season 7. I embrace the messiness of her forgiveness, of the redemption arc. I think it makes for a great story.

As for the comics-- I spoke only based on what I remember but I have since stopped reading them. I'll have to let someone else weigh in where they are concerned.

 

[ladydorotea]

First part of the sentence acknowledges that she forgives him, the second part asserts that it's a stretch that she does?

Nope , mere constatation of the fact that forgiveness does not constitute acceptance or loving friendly embrace, especially in the case riddled with sexual violence, taking advantage of the other party's clinical depression, and perpetrator's history of obsessive behavior prior and post soul-getting. 'Forgive' does not mean bond with. One might forgive a personal offense, it is a stretch to build on this foundation the phantom castles of acceptance or bonding, that's all. Although Spike does that with not blinking an eye, it does not mean the audience laps it as given. I refer you to the many cases of Stokholm syndrome, as well as to the comics 'you are my Dark Place' once again.

Anyway, the idea is that she chooses to embrace the aspects of his personality

She does not. See 'Dark place' references one more time, as well as 'Stalky the Clown', and 'even Spike'. You seem to deliberately ignore the words Joss put into her mouth all through the comics season. Honestly, I am at a loss what to make of it. As for your examples of other sin-forgiveness situations with Buffy and her friends-lovers, none of them are applicable, because in none of that cases Buffy herself was an abuser taking advantage of a soulless and therefore emotionally stunted individual with whom she had no connection sans the physical dark side.

Although it is of course because of this genuine side of the Spuffy connection

There is no such animal as Spuffy-connection in the post S7 comics. Which makes me believe that there was no such animal in S7, or S5, or S4. What we saw in S7 was a combination of pragmatism ( 'he is my strongest fighter'), Stokholm Syndrome ( 'you are my Dark Place'), and plain shame for behaving in an exploitative and demeaning manner when taking advantage of (even) the soulless creature. Thus later it comes as 'even Spike deserves better'.

As for the comics-- I spoke only based on what I remember but I have since stopped reading them. I'll have to let someone else weigh in where they are concerned.

Well, the comics were at the very least conceived in Joss' head as his personal reflection of where the Spuffy post S7 should go ( thus Allie's desperate reference to Joss - 'I cannot give you what Joss does not think is right for the characters!' in one of the letter columns). This thread is titled about 'Was spuffy just a phase? So, to answer this from the perspective of the series creator himself expressed in his plot - yes it was. The rest is pure fanon fantasies, and that includes special spuffy-bond and special spuffy-embrace post AR.

 

[white avenger]

This is just a thought to toss around, but wouldn't it be more accurate to describe Spuffy as multiple phases, rather than just a single thing? Their relationship as it developed in Season 5 and carried over into the beginning of Season 6, trusted friend ans confidante. Later in Season 6, partner in a mutually destructive series of sexual encounters. Then in Season 7, close, possibly closest, friend, with definite overtures of an unrealized romantic relationship, cut short by Spike's incineration in the hellmouth. Very little in Season 8 due to short amount of time spent together. Season 9, back to possibly closest friend with very tentative feelings that might, if developed, result in something closer, with romance not an impossibility. Each one a different phase, running its course, always developing into something different.

Looked at that way might make explaining the Buffy/Spike relationship a little easier to understand.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

wouldn't it be more accurate to describe Spuffy as multiple phases, rather than just a single thing? Their relationship as it developed in Season 5 and carried over into the beginning of Season 6, trusted friend ans confidante. Later in Season 6, partner in a mutually destructive series of sexual encounters. Then in Season 7, close, possibly closest, friend, with definite overtures of an unrealized romantic relationship, cut short by Spike's incineration in the hellmouth. Very little in Season 8 due to short amount of time spent together. Season 9, back to possibly closest friend with very tentative feelings that might, if developed, result in something closer, with romance not an impossibility. Each one a different phase, running its course, always developing into something different.

This makes a lot of sense to me and it's essentially what I was trying to get across in my first post in this thread. I suppose any relationship would indeed have its phases and certainly this particular one takes many twists and turns as one half evolves in a very obvious and profound way, (committing an act of ultimate betrayal before that). So yes, Spuffy is indeed phasic, but to suggest that it was "Just a phase" implies that it only existed for a period of time and is now over, (ie there are no feelings of any sort between the two of them and absolutely no hope for a reunion. Which I understand is the case, in season 9!)

The rest is pure fanon fantasies, and that includes special spuffy-bond and special spuffy-embrace post AR.

I admit to not being particularly familiar with the comics but the above quote is a clear negation of the characters' relationship for the entirety of season 7. Sorry, I didn't write it. "Fantasies?" One doesn't have to support or like the fact that the characters share a bond or an "embrace" in that season, but they do. Whether it's mostly friendship or romantic love is certainly up for interpretation, but I won't argue facts.

Again, as for the comics, hey look--if it's true that Buffy really is going around saying that Spike is the worst, I've got nothing to add. She thinks he's the worst! Guess it really was just a phase that ended before the ink.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

This is just a thought to toss around, but wouldn't it be more accurate to describe Spuffy as multiple phases, rather than just a single thing? Their relationship as it developed in Season 5 and carried over into the beginning of Season 6, trusted friend ans confidante. Later in Season 6, partner in a mutually destructive series of sexual encounters. Then in Season 7, close, possibly closest, friend, with definite overtures of an unrealized romantic relationship, cut short by Spike's incineration in the hellmouth. Very little in Season 8 due to short amount of time spent together. Season 9, back to possibly closest friend with very tentative feelings that might, if developed, result in something closer, with romance not an impossibility. Each one a different phase, running its course, always developing into something different.

Looked at that way might make explaining the Buffy/Spike relationship a little easier to understand.

I dont think so, Spike was not a trusted friend and confidante in season 5/start of 6. Spike and Buffy were not proper friends in season 5, there are moments of respect, but that doesn't equal a friendship, he is still the person that had a robot Buffy to have sex with in season 5. And in 6, Buffy telling Spike she was in Heaven, isn't becasue he's a trusted friend, it's cuz he's Spike and he doesn't matter, telling details is easier to a stranger then it is to your closest friend.

The thing you guys are missing is exactly what ladydorotea has pointed out several times now, Spike isn't Buffys closest friends, he's her dark place. When she needs a yes man, strong fighter there in season 7, he's there, but that doesn't make him her closest friend, he doesn't give her the advise she needs to hear, he just back her up whatever she wants, same goes for season 9. Spike is not Buffys closest friend, she turns to Dawn as the first person she tells she's pregnant, and she turns to Robin for advise - she doesn't go to Spike for advice, she goes to Spike when she's made up her mind about getting an abortion, becasue he is her dark place.

 

[white avenger]

Spike was not a trusted friend and confidante in season 5/start of 6.

"We're not all going to make it.... I'm counting on you to take care of her," sounds pretty trusting to me, especially when you consider the fact that the person that she was asking had no soul, supposedly no sense of loyalty or honor, and not even fear of retribution from Buffy if he didn't keep his word.

And I have serious doubts that Buffy would reveal something as important to her as what Willow's spell had really done to someone who she couldn't trust to keep her secret. Buffy and Spike's relationship went very bad as Season 6 progressed, but from the last few episodes of Season 5 through the beginning of Season 6, she definitely trusted him, arguably more than any of her human friends.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

"We're not all going to make it.... I'm counting on you to take care of her," sounds pretty trusting to me, especially when you consider the fact that the person that she was asking had no soul, supposedly no sense of loyalty or honor, and not even fear of retribution from Buffy if he didn't keep his word.

He also had nothing else to do, he's chipped and couldn't be what he really was. She says that to him, not that he'll look after her, but that he'll still be the muscle. When Buffy dies, Spike isn't the one looking after Dawn, Willow and Tara are. Spike is the muscle, becasue the scoobies continued to fight evil, Spike is still the second best physical fighter of the group but Buffy doesn't entrust Dawns day to day life to Spike, she expects him to still be the muscle.

And I have serious doubts that Buffy would reveal something as important to her as what Willow's spell had really done to someone who she couldn't trust to keep her secret. Buffy and Spike's relationship went very bad as Season 6 progressed, but from the last few episodes of Season 5 through the beginning of Season 6, she definitely trusted him, arguably more than any of her human friends.

Telling secrets to strangers is a thing, I dont know if there is a term for it, but the idea behind it is that telling a stranger something is easier then a close friend becasue there is no judgement (or not judgement you care about), whereas telling a close friend makes it more real. The information she told Spike, is also one piece of information that would hurt her human friends, not telling them that information was Buffy trying to be the hero and not hurt them, she couldn't tell them that, that too diminishes the importance of telling Spike, becasue it's not like she trusted him most of all the tell, it's becasue she couldn't tell anyone else.

I definitely think they are good friends, but I dont think at any stage were they closest friends, Buffy has time and again used Spike knowing his feelings for her, I don't think she'd do that if he was her closest friend

 

[Kurai]

I can definitely say that she made some rash decisions regarding Spike throughout the Season, usually giving the whole 'he has a soul' excuse. I think that's because since she thought that since Angel had a soul and was a good vampire, that Spike would be the same.

She probably had some feelings for him, but I'm not sure if these were love or not.

 

[white avenger]

He also had nothing else to do, he's chipped and couldn't be what he really was. She says that to him, not that he'll look after her, but that he'll still be the muscle. When Buffy dies, Spike isn't the one looking after Dawn, Willow and Tara are. Spike is the muscle, becasue the scoobies continued to fight evil, Spike is still the second best physical fighter of the group but Buffy doesn't entrust Dawns day to day life to Spike, she expects him to still be the muscle.



Telling secrets to strangers is a thing, I dont know if there is a term for it, but the idea behind it is that telling a stranger something is easier then a close friend becasue there is no judgement (or not judgement you care about), whereas telling a close friend makes it more real. The information she told Spike, is also one piece of information that would hurt her human friends, not telling them that information was Buffy trying to be the hero and not hurt them, she couldn't tell them that, that too diminishes the importance of telling Spike, becasue it's not like she trusted him most of all the tell, it's becasue she couldn't tell anyone else.

I definitely think they are good friends, but I dont think at any stage were they closest friends, Buffy has time and again used Spike knowing his feelings for her, I don't think she'd do that if he was her closest friend

So now Buffy trusted Spike to take care of Dawn because he "had nothing better to do?" That's pitiful, but even if she did think that, the key phrase there is "Buffy trusted Spike."

Trusting Spike to stay with the gang to "be the muscle" is, once again, trusting him. He could just as easily played kitten poker with the demons at Willy's bar, or,if he just had to have the violence associated with demon hunting, do it on his own. The Scoobies needed him, he didn't need them.

Willow and Tara weren't the ones who kept Dawn safe from the motorcycle gang, and Xander and Giles weren't the ones who stayed there with her every night.

If telling secrets to strangers was Buffy's "thing," then she would have found a stranger to tell them to. Spike wasn't a stranger, strangers don't dream every night about saving someone, and the main reason that she told him about being in heaven was that she trusted him (there's that word again) to keep the information secret.

Face it, there are just too many examples of Buffy trusting Spike to have any doubt about it.

And my definition of "closest friend" doesn't include throwing you out of your own home because they don't agree with what you want to do. At the very best, they should have been the ones to leave. It's not like there weren't plenty of vacant houses for them to choose from.

At the time when Buffy needed support, encouragement, and just someone to hold her, it was Spike who was there, Spike who never stopped believing in her, and Spike, and Spike alone, who gave Buffy the strength and determination to go back to the vineyard and retrieve the Scythe. To me, that qualifies as "closest friend" quite well.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

So now Buffy trusted Spike to take care of Dawn because he "had nothing better to do?" That's pitiful, but even if she did think that, the key phrase there is "Buffy trusted Spike."

what I meant was, you made a point of Spike having no soul - thats irrelevent, he was monster-impotent, he is no threat to Dawn, your example made it sound like Buffy trusted him while he was soulless, that isn't the case she trusted him while muzzled.

Trusting Spike to stay with the gang to "be the muscle" is, once again, trusting him. He could just as easily played kitten poker with the demons at Willy's bar, or,if he just had to have the violence associated with demon hunting, do it on his own. The Scoobies needed him, he didn't need them.

The scoobies didn't need him, who are you kidding? Willow could squash Spike with the wave of a hand at this point, the start of season 6 shows that Spike is feeling undervalued, becasue he isn't valued by anyone else.
And Buffy trusting him does not make him her closest friend, I said I see there is a friendship there, she does trust him, but trust doesn't immediately equal closest friend.
Spike had no purpose, he was caught between being conditioned to be good and still being a soulless monster who couldn't be a soulless monster, he needed the scoobies to give him a purpose.

Willow and Tara weren't the ones who kept Dawn safe from the motorcycle gang, and Xander and Giles weren't the ones who stayed there with her every night.

Eh dont forget they only left the house becasue "hiding" in the house wasn't Spikes style, and he fails at keeping her safe, he gets cornered and Dawn runs off, actually remember what happened in the show before claiming he kept Dawn safe, Spike failed and Dawn was lucky the newly resurrected Buffy showed up and actually kept her safe.

If telling secrets to strangers was Buffy's "thing," then she would have found a stranger to tell them to. Spike wasn't a stranger, strangers don't dream every night about saving someone, and the main reason that she told him about being in heaven was that she trusted him (there's that word again) to keep the information secret.

She did find a stranger, Spikes isn't a close friend, she couldn't tell her closest friends about heaven, just like how she opens up to Tara about coming back wrong, Tara is a friend but she isn't a close friend like telling Willow or Xander.
Buffy opening up to people outside her close circle is common, she begins to open up to the guidance counselor in season 2, she opens up to Spike, she opens up to Tara, and in season 7 she opens up to Holden Webster

And my definition of "closest friend" doesn't include throwing you out of your own home because they don't agree with what you want to do. At the very best, they should have been the ones to leave. It's not like there weren't plenty of vacant houses for them to choose from.

Again thats not actually what happened. Buffy says she wont stay in the house and watch them be led by Faith, and Dawn says if she can't get on board with Faith she has to leave, as they need to work as a team to win - Buffy decides she can't be a member of the team unless she leads so she leaves. She wasn't thrown out, she undervalued everyone and treated them like crap, she had to leave becasue she refused to be a member of the team.

At the time when Buffy needed support, encouragement, and just someone to hold her, it was Spike who was there, Spike who never stopped believing in her, and Spike, and Spike alone, who gave Buffy the strength and determination to go back to the vineyard and retrieve the Scythe. To me, that qualifies as "closest friend" quite well.

It isn't odd to you that Spikes advise of taking back the team is ignored, she doesn't listen to him, she doesn't even wake him up to go to the vineyard, becasue she got what she needed from him and she didn't need him. absolutely Buffy is Spikes closest friend, but Spike isn't Buffys, she constantly talks of how he's the second best fighter, but when going after caleb again she decides she doesn't need him. That speech in Touched shows how much Spike cares for Buffy, no one denies that, but Buffy doesn't care enough to bring him with her.
She continues not to care enough to contact him after he returns from the dead, she doesn't care to ask for help when Twilight turns up, she goes to Riley instead, then she doesn't care for his opinion on her getting an abortion, she turns to Dawn and Wood for that.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

The scoobies didn't need him, who are you kidding? Willow could squash Spike with the wave of a hand at this point, the start of season 6 shows that Spike is feeling undervalued, becasue he isn't valued by anyone else.

The beginning of season 6 is heavily focused on scenes in which the gang very actively, very verbally, ask for Spike's help. They patrol together--Spike is very much part of the "team" even though no one is happy about it. The scoobies are shown, very much, to need Spike to survive. Now I'm thinking of that really cheesy scene in which Giles is pinned to a fence by a very large vamp who Spike has set on fire...and man if that doesn't illustrate how much contempt Spike and Giles have for each other!

Eh dont forget they only left the house becasue "hiding" in the house wasn't Spikes style, and he fails at keeping her safe, he gets cornered and Dawn runs off, actually remember what happened in the show before claiming he kept Dawn safe, Spike failed and Dawn was lucky the newly resurrected Buffy showed up and actually kept her safe.

So, in the beginning of the episode, Spike and Dawn are in the Summers' living room, and Dawn insists that she doesn't want to go to school. Spike insists that she must, because Buffy would want her to get an education (or something along those lines). He's watching her as she eats her dinner, waiting for Willow to get home, (obviously Spike, Willow, and Tara take turns looking after her).

Yes, later on that night, they leave the house. Spike does all he can to protect her when they are attacked by those ridiculous Hell's Angels, Demon Chapter wannabes. It's true that he fails--Dawn thinks Buffy might be around because of something the 'bot says, and she runs off. This does not mean that Spike was not helping out, that he didn't have a purpose, or that he wasn't genuinely invested in Dawn's wellbeing. It just means that he failed to keep her from running off.

Buffy also failed to keep Glory from grabbing Dawn at the end of Spiral, are we going to say that she was disinterested with Dawn's safety, too, and/or that she had no purpose because she failed?

Spikes isn't a close friend, she couldn't tell her closest friends about heaven, just like how she opens up to Tara about coming back wrong, Tara is a friend but she isn't a close friend like telling Willow or Xander.

Ok so maybe Spike isn't a close friend yet but he's certainly a confidant, by definition. Can we agree then that Buffy might consider Spike as good of a friend as she considers Tara to be? She confides in both when she doesn't want to tell her "closest" friends certain things.

It isn't odd to you that Spikes advise of taking back the team is ignored, she doesn't listen to him, she doesn't even wake him up to go to the vineyard, becasue she got what she needed from him and she didn't need him.

It's true that she didn't take his advice; I don't consider it odd though, I mean I think she just genuinely didn't agree with him. I disagree with my closest friends all of the time, and neglect to take their advice! (Even when I shouldn't. 🙂 )

It's also true that she got what she needed from him. She got a boost in confidence; she got reminded that she's a "hell of a woman" and that she's loved and respected. That's what she needed from him; that's what people need from their friends.

she doesn't care for his opinion on her getting an abortion, she turns to Dawn and Wood for that.

But we said earlier that sometimes you don't tell things to the people to whom you're closest, yes? I mean sometimes you do, and sometimes you don't. This doesn't prove that she didn't feel close to Spike; merely that she chose not to seek his advice, just like she chose not to tell her "closest" friends that she'd been in Heaven. Ya know?

 

[ladydorotea]

Ok so maybe Spike isn't a close friend yet but he's certainly a confidant, by definition. Can we agree then that Buffy might consider Spike as good of a friend as she considers Tara to be? She confides in both when she doesn't want to tell her "closest" friends certain things.

No, the pattern with Spike-the Dark Place was always about him being the one so 'beneath her' that him knowing certain things was not shameful, because he could not be the judge of her. Not something to be proud of, honestly. I actually find this particular side of Buffy quite unlikeable - she uses him for shameful secret sex and she also uses him for confiding things she finds too disturbing to share with friends. (She actually does it with another souless vampire in Conversations with Dead People, too.)

But we said earlier that sometimes you don't tell things to the people to whom you're closest, yes? I mean sometimes you do, and sometimes you don't. This doesn't prove that she didn't feel close to Spike; merely that she chose not to seek his advice

Roll eyes. She jokingly suggested that the baby could have been Spike's - but never actually asked him 'Btw did we happen to have sex while I was drunk at that party? Do you think with the new rules of magic you could have impregnated me ?' And you seriously insist she 'felt close' to the guy with whom she did not even choose to consult on *that* matter ?! Don't you think it was at the very least polite to ask these type of questions - ?

The only person you don't ask these kind of things - is somebody you 'treat like a dog' because you firstly don't respect them and, secondly expect them to absolutely take advantage of you being drunk and never apologize - which is exactly what the writers implied by omission.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

The beginning of season 6 is heavily focused on scenes in which the gang very actively, very verbally, ask for Spike's help. They patrol together--Spike is very much part of the "team" even though no one is happy about it. The scoobies are shown, very much, to need Spike to survive. Now I'm thinking of that really cheesy scene in which Giles is pinned to a fence by a very large vamp who Spike has set on fire...and man if that doesn't illustrate how much contempt Spike and Giles have for each other!

I'm not saying Spike wasn't useful in a fight, but to think that the scoobies needed him is a stretch, they had a fighter in the bot, they have a leader in Willow, Spike makes a very handy member of the group, but absolutely vital, in a can't do without way, absolutely not.

So, in the beginning of the episode, Spike and Dawn are in the Summers' living room, and Dawn insists that she doesn't want to go to school. Spike insists that she must, because Buffy would want her to get an education (or something along those lines). He's watching her as she eats her dinner, waiting for Willow to get home, (obviously Spike, Willow, and Tara take turns looking after her).

Yeah I'm not saying he's not useful, he's around and has nothing better to do. The others have work and school, the only thing Spike can do for Dawn is babysit her, thats incredibly useful to the gang who are busy working and providing for her. And I'd say everyone takes turns watching her, not just Tara, Willow and Spike. Spike was watching her becasue the 4 were at a meeting together.

Yes, later on that night, they leave the house. Spike does all he can to protect her when they are attacked by those ridiculous Hell's Angels, Demon Chapter wannabes. It's true that he fails--Dawn thinks Buffy might be around because of something the 'bot says, and she runs off. This does not mean that Spike was not helping out, that he didn't have a purpose, or that he wasn't genuinely invested in Dawn's wellbeing. It just means that he failed to keep her from running off.

Buffy also failed to keep Glory from grabbing Dawn at the end of Spiral, are we going to say that she was disinterested with Dawn's safety, too, and/or that she had no purpose because she failed?

I never said he was disinterested in her, I said he failed, and the reason I said it like that was becasue WA said that Spike protected her from the motorbike gang, when he didn't.
On top of that they leave the house becasue hiding isn't spikes Style, Spike is a throw himself into battle kinda guy and by doing that he put Dawn in danger.

Ok so maybe Spike isn't a close friend yet but he's certainly a confidant, by definition. Can we agree then that Buffy might consider Spike as good of a friend as she considers Tara to be? She confides in both when she doesn't want to tell her "closest" friends certain things.

Absolutely, in each of my posts I've said Buffy and Spike are friends, I'm arguing against the idea that WA suggested he is her closest friend. But absolutely he seems to be a friend in the same way Tara was.

It's true that she didn't take his advice; I don't consider it odd though, I mean I think she just genuinely didn't agree with him. I disagree with my closest friends all of the time, and neglect to take their advice! (Even when I shouldn't. 🙂 )

It's also true that she got what she needed from him. She got a boost in confidence; she got reminded that she's a "hell of a woman" and that she's loved and respected. That's what she needed from him; that's what people need from their friends.

I'd say thats what people need from a follower, people need mutual love and respect from their friends, Buffy and Spike dont have that, Spike loves and respects Buffy and Buffy has complicated feeling about an asset, her "most powerful weapon"

But we said earlier that sometimes you don't tell things to the people to whom you're closest, yes? I mean sometimes you do, and sometimes you don't. This doesn't prove that she didn't feel close to Spike; merely that she chose not to seek his advice, just like she chose not to tell her "closest" friends that she'd been in Heaven. Ya know?

But the difference is, she does tell Spike. With heaven, she doesn't tell the others till she is forced to, she chose to tell Spike, but only cuz she wanted her yes man from the dark place, absolutely that is a friend, but she didn't want his advise or guidance, so I dont see how asking him make him her closest friend when it seems she seeks out better people for advise and goes to him when she needs a dark place.

 

[white avenger]

Absolutely, in each of my posts I've said Buffy and Spike are friends, I'm arguing against the idea that WA suggested he is her closest friend. But absolutely he seems to be a friend in the same way Tara was.

WA said that Spike qualified as being Buffy's best friend in a specific time and place. I also said that he was "arguably" closer than any of her human friends.

Mainly because I knew that at least one person here would argue about the possibility.

 

[Himiko]

And my definition of "closest friend" doesn't include throwing you out of your own home because they don't agree with what you want to do. At the very best, they should have been the ones to leave. It's not like there weren't plenty of vacant houses for them to choose from.

OK, just to go slightly off topic here, but firstly, that isn't what happened- Buffy was removed from the leadership role because her friends and the Potentials did not agree with what she was doing. Her being told that she has to leave comes after she refuses to stay and work under Faith, and even then it's more an ultimatum- if she won't stay as part of the group rather than the leader, then she needs to leave. Buffy chooses the latter option.

And on a similar note, the constant talk of how everyone else in the house should have left and decamped somewhere else because the house is Buffy's. I do appreciate the point, and if this was a totally normal case where a group of people were lodging in a house, and then kicked out the owner of that house, then yeah, absolutely. Way out of line. But Buffy herself decreed that they (Scoobies, Potentials and assorted other allies) were an army now, and the Summer's house was pretty much their command central. It was where their training equipment and weapons were set up, it was where the entire army was housed, it was where all the research materials and books that Giles had managed to gather were kept, etc. Buffy LEFT the group/army, in the middle of the war, because she had been removed from the leadership role. Whilst the house was legally hers, it also made sense from all sides that the rest of the group, who still had every intention of fighting in that "army", remain where they are currently centered- not because they had any legal right to the house, but because it makes logistical sense. I don't believe that any part of Buffy being upset is because they got to stay in the house and not her, but because her family and friends- including her sister- have told her that they do not want her as their leader, that they no longer have confidence in her leadership, and, I suspect, because she sees their point.

Back on topic, I think it depends on your definition of a "phase". Buffy doesn't "see fat grandchildren" in the future with Spike, nor does she deny Spike's assertion that she doesn't love him. I don't see Buffy ending up in a happy long term romantic relationship with Spike, and I don't enjoy the relationship at all. BUT, that said, I do believe that the relationship was important to Buffy, and to her development as a character, as were all three of her major relationships on the show, but I wouldn't write any of them off as "just a phase", even though they might not work out in the long term. "Phase" in this context implies something less serious to me

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=10697]Himiko[/MENTION]

I do believe that the relationship was important to Buffy, and to her development as a character, as were all three of her major relationships on the show

I disagree. This relationship is extremely important to Spike's development but not to Buffy's in my opinion. It's not even as pivotal in Buffy's depression arc as being afraid to die in "Gone" or Riley's arrival in "As You Were" or the demon juice hallucinations in "Normal Again" or the humiliation and ass kicking she receives from Willow in the final episodes of the season. It's just sort of there. More importantly, whenever Buffy loses a lover it really hits her hard emotionally, it's a pattern done with Angel, Riley and Parker. There are entire episodes and arcs about her dealing. With Spike there's mostly one big nothing. Then in season 7 he bursts into flames and again, nothing. This leads me to believe that Spike was nothing more than a glorified sex toy.

I don't know, I just don't see any noteworthy development that stems directly from her romance with Spike.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I think, in determining whether Spuffy was a "phase," it's necessary to note what one thinks of when evaluating Spuffy itself, with regard to the time period in question. If the relationship is considered only in season 6 during which the two are physically intimate and unabashedly destructive, (to each other and to themselves), then I suppose you could call it a "phase."

But if Spuffy is limited to season 6 alone, then I'm not a fan and I don't ship it.

I see Spuffy as something that begins in season 5 with the slow development of a mutual respect and trust, ripening in "Intervention," carrying through and then culminating in that heartrending "I know I'm just a monster, but you treat me like a man" before Buffy's death.

Destruction ensues throughout season 6 and after Spike leaves for Africa, at that point, "Spuffy" as we knew it, as it was, is over. Each character eventually became acutely aware of its toxicity and ended it, Buffy in "As You Were" and Spike after realizing he could never prevent himself from regressing and harming Buffy, as he goes off to get his soul.

Season 7 is Spuffy born anew, in my eyes. I realize that a lot of fans don't share this opinion, and I respect that. But it has a lot to do with my appreciation for the relationship, indeed my eagerness to "ship" them. Buffy considers Spike as a "man" with a soul, and their fondness for one another is something that develops even further without the expectation from either that they will be defined as anything other than friends, companions, teammates. I love the dynamic of their relationship in this season and the bond they share.

As for the comics? Buffy, believing herself to be pregnant, turned to Spike and confessed to him that all she'd wanted to do was to run away with him and start over.

And now Spike is gone, certainly, because he realizes that what he wants with Buffy is something she can't give him, at least not now.

But was it, in its entirety, a phase? Is it over? Not the way I see it, at all.

Bravo, well said. Spuffy is not over, not by a long shot.

 

[ladydorotea]

Well, in canon the two-way Spuffy has never existed. But the never ending unrequited obsession of Spike's will probably remain unresolved through entirety of the comics seasons because hope runs eternal for these kind of ships.