Was Tara Abusing Willow in Passive-Agressive Ways?

[vellavu]

Who Are You?
"Well you should be safe. Nobody knows you're here. I mean, they don't even know I exist, right?"
Seems like Tara was intentionally trying to make Willow feel guilty.

The Yoko Factor
"Oh. I figured you'd be dorming it up with Buffy again."
Is this saying "I'm less important than Buffy to you and you are gonna change that"?

Real Me
"They're gonna be a little while longer, doing the detective thing. Best non-Scoobies like you and me stay out of their way."
Seriously? Complaining to a young teenager when you are supposed to comfort her?

"I know. You're right. It's just hard. The outsider feeling."

"You guys all just have this really tight bond. It's hard to break into that. I'm not even sure I want to."
First you say the outsider feeling is hard, then you say you are not sure if you want to be inside. And you accused the Scoobies of not allowing you to join in for no reason.

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Is Willow's brainwash an overreaction to this? I'm not defending Willow, but I found that Tara's behavior can be an explanation to some of Willow's choices.

 

[Wildfly]

Though Tara's sutter annoys me and i'd seen dead fish with more charisma than her and I've no idea how brilliant Willow managed to fall in love with her, Tara is right voicing her concerns. Yes, she does it Tara-style with sadeyes and that monoton voice, i think it's fair to talk about issues in a relationship instead of doing a spell equalient of lobotomy, building a sexbot that complies with all her wishes or going to a vamp brothel.

She wants in to the scoobies treehouse but being insecure she also voices her concerns about it. Perfectly legitimate, even if i like Kennedy's style better and Oz's million times better.

 

[vellavu]

She wants in to the scoobies treehouse but being insecure she also voices her concerns about it.

No, she was more than just voicing her concerns. The way she was saying her concern was kinda guilt-tripping Willow into blaming herself.

 

[Wildfly]

No, she was more than just voicing her concerns. The way she was saying her concern was kinda guilt-tripping Willow into blaming herself.

That is open to interpretation. In Will's place i'd preferred to know how my partner felt.
But really, where is the optimum between guilt tripping and between "Crying is blackmail. Good girlfriends never cry." ?

 

[vellavu]

That is open to interpretation. In Will's place i'd preferred to know how my partner felt.
But really, where is the optimum between guilt tripping and between "Crying is blackmail. Good girlfriends never cry." ?

Well emotional crying is different to intentional prepared crying...

And yes. Maybe I over-interpreted much. But actually this makes me like Tara more. The "supposed" Tara was too perfect to be likable.

 

[Mr Trick]

I don't see any guilt tripping to it at least not on purpose. When Tara is introduce she just has low-self confiderence and is enjoying her new found friend and just a bit nervious that Willow might get bored with her. Those kind of emotions are all quite normal for someone that age.

 

[thetopher]

I always thought Tara was too sincere to pull passive-aggressive guilt trips. It comes from her own deep-seated insecurites. Tara feels out of the loop (because she is) until Family at the very least.
She wasn't really manipulative (too littel self-esteem) but I suppose you could interpret what she says that way. I never ever thought that it was intention.

 

[Lyri]

Tara, when she's first introduced, is the epitome of an abused child. She doesn't make eye contact if she can help it, she doesn't expect to be introduced to people's friends, she doesn't expect to be treated kindly, she doesn't expect to be important enough to anyone to be their whole world, so she's okay waiting for any scrap of time Willow decides she wants to spend with her.

Tara, when Willow first meets her, has no self-esteem, she has no sense of self-worth, and she certainly doesn't have what it takes to manipulate anyone, especially not someone like Willow, who has the kind of friends that Tara herself wants. One of the greatest things about Tara was seeing her grow throughout the season, from someone who couldn't make eye contact, to someone who was capable of standing up to vampires and walk away from a relationship she knows is damaging.

 

[Wildfly]

One of the greatest things about Tara was seeing her grow throughout the season, from someone who couldn't make eye contact, to someone who was capable of standing up to vampires and walk away from a relationship she knows is damaging.

Sure, it's was the best option for her, to walk out. Real great. After all, she knew Buffy and Xander will take care of Willow and help her, so she needen't worry and strain her pretty head about all that inconvenient and ugly addiction issue that damaged their affair. Willow had her friends for her hard times, so Tara could just wait and take her back as soon as Will was OK again.

 

[Blaze]

Even if (and I say if because I don't believe one bit that Tara was manipulative), but if Tara was manipulative or confrontational, it wouldn't even come close to something abusive.

In all of those examples, Tara is actually communicating, she's not trying to put Willow down or anything of the likes.

In Who Are You, right after the example you mentionned, Tara goes on to say that she is Willow's, clearly trying to establish that first and foremost she's Willow's partner (even if they weren't together together at that point). I don't blame Tara for wondering if Buffy knows about/of her. Sounds more like she's insecure than accusatory.

The Yoko Factor, Tara legitimately sees herself as less important than some of Willow's other friends, even partners (see Tough Love). It never even crossed Tara's mind that Willow would want to live with her over Buffy.

Real Me, Tara WAS comforting Dawn. Non-Scooby isn't a bad thing, it's kind of a truth. At that point Tara was still not as involved with the killing the bad guys thing, same with Anya, same with lots of the other SO. I think Dawn always got along so well with Tara exactly because of that reason. She wasn't part of that tight knit Buffy/Xander/Willow/Giles group. Tara actually took care of Dawn when the others were too busy to do so. Of course if I was in a relationship I'd also find it hard if my gf had a group of close friends that aren't very accepting of outsiders (which let's face it, they are not). It doesn't mean it's a bad thing of that Tara is guilt tripping Willow, no she's just voicing a concern. If I dated someone and they felt that way, I would want them to tell me.

The notion that any of those things are abusive is just beyond me. Tara is one of the most passive character in the verse.

Sure, it's was the best option for her, to walk out. Real great. After all, she knew Buffy and Xander will take care of Willow and help her, so she needen't worry and strain her pretty head about all that inconvenient and ugly addiction issue that damaged their affair. Willow had her friends for her hard times, so Tara could just wait and take her back as soon as Will was OK again.

Yes it was. What Willow did to Tara WAS abusive. Addiction does not excuse that. If a woman is getting beaten up by her drunk of a husband, you'd want her to get out of that situation. Mental abuse is the same, Willow violated Tara's mind. And although there is no comparison in real life, I think that constitute of a fair enough reason to get the hell out of the situation. Now I do believe in second chances if someone can clean themselves up (like Willow did later on). But at that very moment, we weren't just dealing with Willow's addiction, we were dealing with Willow out right abusing Tara. Tara 100% made the right move by getting out. Addiction does not excuse the behavior.

 

[Lyri]

Sure, it's was the best option for her, to walk out. Real great. After all, she knew Buffy and Xander will take care of Willow and help her, so she needen't worry and strain her pretty head about all that inconvenient and ugly addiction issue that damaged their affair. Willow had her friends for her hard times, so Tara could just wait and take her back as soon as Will was OK again.

It doesn't matter one tiny bit about Willow in this situation. Willow was abusive, she was 100% abusing Tara, and Tara had every right to walk away, to do what was right FOR HER in this situation. Tara had to take care of herself. If Willow wasn't willing to get help, then Tara had every right to leave her. If a woman is being abused by her alcoholic partner, even if it's just mental abuse, we would all be screaming at the top of her lungs that she should walk away. Why is this situation any different?

 

[Wildfly]

Yes it was. What Willow did to Tara WAS abusive. Addiction does not excuse that. If a woman is getting beaten up by her drunk of a husband, you'd want her to get out of that situation. Mental abuse is the same, Willow violated Tara's mind. And although there is no comparison in real life, I think that constitute of a fair enough reason to get the hell out of the situation. Now I do believe in second chances if someone can clean themselves up (like Willow did later on). But at that very moment, we weren't just dealing with Willow's addiction, we were dealing with Willow out right abusing Tara. Tara 100% made the right move by getting out. Addiction does not excuse the behavior.

Sure. And if Buffy would kick out Will after she endangered and hurt Dawn and justify her actions with not wanting to be in a same house with an addict that abused her kid sis and wait until Will was fit again to be with them she also would have been perfectly right.
As would all the scoobies to send Tara back from where she'd came from when Tara abused/raped their mind making them unsee demons, as @vellavu pointed out earlier. HOW STUPID someone can get to make the Slayer and her slayerettes to UNSEE DEMONS?! So why no one kicked her out? Because she was mentally defective and as such not responsible for her actions? Or why she haven't left voluntarily? Accrding to her own moral code, that's the highest treason - violate the mind of the person/s that trusts you.

 

[Lyri]

Tara wasn't abusive. Tara didn't use that spell because she wanted to hurt her friends or make herself feel better. She used that spell because she was scared of what Willow and Buffy would do to her when they found out that she was supposedly a demon. She was scared out her mind and the spell she used was supposed to hide her own demon aspect - except her fear made the spell back fire and hide ALL demons. And the spell didn't affect their minds like Willow's dead. It didn't erase their memories or twist a situation into making it something better for her.

What Willow did was completely different. She used that spell on Tara to make herself feel better. She manipulated Tara's mind to make her forget about what they were fighting about just because she didn't feel like fighting anymore. She took away Tara's agency, her right to choose. Willow was addicted to magic and refused to see it and hurt and abused Tara - and the rest of her friends - because of it. It's not even remotely the same thing. The fact that Buffy allowed Willow to stay in her house after everything doesn't tarnish or diminish the fact that Tara did what she thought was best FOR HER.

 

[Blaze]

Sure. And if Buffy would kick out Will after she endangered and hurt Dawn and justify her actions with not wanting to be in a same house with an addict that abused her kid sis and wait until Will was fit again to be with them she also would have been perfectly right.
As would all the scoobies to send Tara back from where she'd came from when Tara abused/raped their mind making them unsee demons, as @vellavu pointed out earlier. HOW STUPID someone can get to make the Slayer and her slayerettes to UNSEE DEMONS?! So why no one kicked her out? Because she was mentally defective and as such not responsible for her actions? Or why she haven't left voluntarily? Accrding to her own moral code, that's the highest treason - violate the mind of the person/s that trusts you.

Actually yes, I think Buffy would have been justified. Although it's important to make the distinction. Willow endangered Dawn by driving under the influence (that's the metaphor they were going for anyway). Willow herself did not hurt mentally, or physically Dawn by her own hands (aka, hit), but she did put Dawn in a lot of danger. That situation is more akin to someone drunk driving and hurting a friend. Doesn't make it right, but it also does not make it abusive. No one is talking about waiting for Willow to be fit again before she's accepted into the group. Willow clearly needed help, help that mind you Tara would have offered (and tried to offer) until Willow crossed the line. Also, it's not Buffy or Xander that made Willow quit. Willow made Willow quit. Had she continued down the same path, yes, I think she would have lost all of her friends, and they would have been justified in doing so for their own health. I cannot, and would not ever blame someone for making a decision base on their own health and safety.

Also, Tara did not rape their mind. You cannot rape someone's mind, that is an "expression" that needs to stop being thrown around. It was a spell, the same kind of spell Xander performed in BBandB and OMWF, or the spell Willow cast in Something Blue. Meaning basically a mistake of a spell, performing a spell with one intention and something else happening. Not the same kind of spell Willow cast directly on Tara with the clear intention of erasing her mind. Was it stupid or Tara, yes, absolutely. Notice how Tara 100% thought that they would cast her out. Tara knew that she was responsible for her actions and that they were wrong. The reason they let her stay if because one, they knew the intention was not to hurt them, she just messed up royally. Two, it's called forgiveness, they chose to forgive on the basis under which Tara performed the spell (because of her asshole of a family really). Again, not an excuse, but circumstances do matter. Tara made a mistake, just like Xander did, just like many of the other characters did. But she in no way violated the mind of her friends on the same extent that Willow violated her own mind.

Also, Tara did forgive Willow, time and time again in s6, and tried to help Willow. Willow pushed Tara until there was nothing left of Tara.

 

[Wildfly]

Tara wasn't abusive. Tara didn't use that spell because she wanted to hurt her friends or make herself feel better.

Sure she did it to make herself feel better. She thought she was a demon and decided that for her own convenience and to keep her new paramour + friends she'd lie to them. She took away their choice by magic means.

She used that spell because she was scared of what Willow and Buffy would do to her when they found out that she was supposedly a demon. She was scared out her mind

don't care how scared she was. then i could say Will did the spell because she was scared to lose the love of her life.

and the spell she used was supposed to hide her own demon aspect - except her fear made the spell back fire and hide ALL demons. And the spell didn't affect their minds like Willow's dead. It didn't erase their memories or twist a situation into making it something better for her.

'twas to hide her identity and is kinda was for Tara. To improve HER situtation, not, for example help hungry kids in Africa.

What Willow did was completely different. She used that spell on Tara to make herself feel better. She manipulated Tara's mind to make her forget about what they were fighting about just because she didn't feel like fighting anymore. She took away Tara's agency, her right to choose.

both witches abused magic and pretty much for the same reasons. They didn't want to lose their loved ones.
Tara physically endangered her lover and friends, Will brainwashed her lover. Both are wrong.

Willow was addicted to magic and refused to see it and hurt and abused Tara - and the rest of her friends - because of it. It's not even remotely the same thing. The fact that Buffy allowed Willow to stay in her house after everything doesn't tarnish or diminish the fact that Tara did what she thought was best FOR HER.

look, i am not saying the abused should stay with his/her abuser. She had the right to leave. She also had the right be less passive and stay and help. I remember Kennedy insisting to help Willow with her inner Warren. I wonder what meek and passive Tara would have done in similar situation. Be soothing and wait it out at home? It's the two things she is best at.
Not saying staying is the best, far from it. from experience, helping in such cases can be REAL scary and painful, especially if you have a friend with a mental condition and who physically is a lot stronger than you, who also refuses to get help, cos he cames from a family background like Tara's.

 

[Lyri]

Then if you agree that leaving is the best thing to do for someone in Tara's situation, why are you ragging on her and dragging her through the mud? Everyone reacts to this sort of situation differently, we see this in the actual show, with Tara deciding to leave for her own health, and Buffy and the other deciding to stay.

As I said in my OP, Tara grew SO MUCH since her introduction, mostly, yes, because of Willow's influence, but that just gave Tara the strength to walk away from something that was harmful to her. Just because Willow loved her doesn't mean that Tara owed her anything.

 

[gite63]

Also, Tara did not rape their mind. You cannot rape someone's mind, that is an "expression" that needs to stop being thrown around. It was a spell, the same kind of spell Xander performed in BBandB and OMWF, or the spell Willow cast in Something Blue. Meaning basically a mistake of a spell, performing a spell with one intention and something else happening.

The only mistake Tara did was casting the spell to protect herself; she did it out of fear and she was selfish - she didn't stop to think of the consequences, but it's understable due to the circumstances. Maybe she thought that a couple of days (or hours?) would not put anyone in danger... Aside that, Tara didn't abuse Will in any way.

 

[Wildfly]

Actually yes, I think Buffy would have been justified. Although it's important to make the distinction. Willow endangered Dawn by driving under the influence (that's the metaphor they were going for anyway). Willow herself did not hurt mentally, or physically Dawn by her own hands (aka, hit), but she did put Dawn in a lot of danger. That situation is more akin to someone drunk driving and hurting a friend. Doesn't make it right, but it also does not make it abusive. No one is talking about waiting for Willow to be fit again before she's accepted into the group. Willow clearly needed help, help that mind you Tara would have offered (and tried to offer) until Willow crossed the line. Also, it's not Buffy or Xander that made Willow quit. Willow made Willow quit. Had she continued down the same path, yes, I think she would have lost all of her friends, and they would have been justified in doing so for their own health.

Taking a minor to a drug den or whatever that thing stands for and then finish the night with a drunken accident and hurting her is 'endanger and hurt' in my book. not intentional abuse, but still.

I cannot, and would not ever blame someone for making a decision base on their own health and safety.

that's why i was silent about that until someone started praising her for it. So yeah. i said, good for her, lucky she got different treatment in similar situation.

Also, Tara did not rape their mind. You cannot rape someone's mind, that is an "expression" that needs to stop being thrown around. It was a spell, the same kind of spell Xander performed in BBandB and OMWF, or the spell Willow cast in Something Blue. Meaning basically a mistake of a spell, performing a spell with one intention and something else happening. Not the same kind of spell Willow cast directly on Tara with the clear intention of erasing her mind.

i think the HP universe they call it the imperio spell and it's one of the three unforgivables. in other universes it's called mind control and such. it's to make people to do things they dont want. or alter their minds and perceptions.
it's called unforgivable for a reason. i maintain that it's the worst violation / rape even if the consequences in Something Blue were negliable. that was luck. If Xander would have been killed or if Spuffy would have sex then or if Buffy was killed by the invisible demons who would then kill all the others in the magic box after Tara's spell that'd convince you that playing with people's mind is kinda wrong, even if a poor, poor stuttering girl with cow eyes does it?

Was it stupid or Tara, yes, absolutely. Notice how Tara 100% thought that they would cast her out. Tara knew that she was responsible for her actions and that they were wrong. The reason they let her stay if because one, they knew the intention was not to hurt them, she just messed up royally. Two, it's called forgiveness, they chose to forgive on the basis under which Tara performed the spell (because of her asshole of a family really). Again, not an excuse, but circumstances do matter. Tara made a mistake, just like Xander did, just like many of the other characters did. But she in no way violated the mind of her friends on the same extent that Willow violated her own mind.

and who says if you do it for good intentions then you can be excused? who decided what's good and bad intentions? Tara? Willow? You? Me? for Willow it was the best intentions both in Someting Blue and playing with Tara's mind. she wanted the best when she wanted her will to be done.
same with Tara. she wanted the best. She knew she wasn't dangerous, so she, instead of getting into troublesome explanations, just did a spell. Best intentions.

Also, Tara did forgive Willow, time and time again in s6, and tried to help Willow. Willow pushed Tara until there was nothing left of Tara.

no need to be overly dramatic. nothing left...? hey, she earsed a conversation.
Also I think that Tara lacked the charisma and personality to deal with Willow and actually help her, so it was fine with me when she left.
 

The only mistake Tara did was casting the spell to protect herself; she did it out of fear and she was selfish - she didn't stop to think of the consequences, but it's understable due to the circumstances. Maybe she thought that a couple of days (or hours?) would not put anyone in danger... Aside that, Tara didn't abuse Will in any way.

no. but it proves to me that in circumstances when she fels cornered she is cabable to do potentially harmful and morally wrong things for selfish reasons.

 

[Blaze]

Taking a minor to a drug den or whatever that thing stands for and then finish the night with a drunken accident and hurting her is 'endanger and hurt' in my book. not intentional abuse, but still.

That's exactly what I said.

i think the HP universe they call it the imperio spell and it's one of the three unforgivables. in other universes it's called mind control and such. it's to make people to do things they dont want. or alter their minds and perceptions.
it's called unforgivable for a reason. i maintain that it's the worst violation / rape even if the consequences in Something Blue were negliable. that was luck. If Xander would have been killed or if Spuffy would have sex then or if Buffy was killed by the invisible demons who would then kill all the others in the magic box after Tara's spell that'd convince you that playing with people's mind is kinda wrong, even if a poor, poor stuttering girl with cow eyes does it?

No. The Imperius curse is not just mind control. It's complete body control. You can make the person do whatever you wished them to do, including jumping off a building or killing someone else. Not remotely similar to what Tara did. Once again, how does that even equate to rape? There's zero relation between what Tara did and rape. I'm not saying what Tara did was right, but there's a big, big difference between mind control, and the spell Tara performed. She didn't alter the group's mental capacity in any way.

and who says if you do it for good intentions then you can be excused? who decided what's good and bad intentions? Tara? Willow? You? Me? for Willow it was the best intentions both in Someting Blue and playing with Tara's mind. she wanted the best when she wanted her will to be done.
same with Tara. she wanted the best. She knew she wasn't dangerous, so she, instead of getting into troublesome explanations, just did a spell. Best intentions.

Clearly the group decided that. You may not like it, but it's cannon that they forgave her, so clearly they chose to excuse her. Please explain to me how Willow's intentions were good when she decided to erase Tara's memory, cause I just don't see it. The spell Tara performed was done out of fear due to her abusive past. She did it because she did not want to go back to that abusive family. It wasn't just about having an uncomfortable discussion in the group, Tara was petrified that she would have to relive what she went through growing up, and what her mother went through. Willow erased Tara's memory because at that point she didn't give one shit about Tara's feelings, she would rather have a shell of her girlfriend than have someone question her addiction. If you can't see the difference between the two events than so be it, I will stop debating it.

no need to be overly dramatic. nothing left...? hey, she earsed a conversation.

Forget Tabula Rasa? Willow erased their entire lives! And although the spell affected everyone, it was aimed at Tara and Buffy. And had Willow not been caught, she would have done it over and over again.

 

[Mr Trick]

Another reason why Tara may come off self-centred is because of the way she is constructed as a moody goth type in the fourth season. I don't think that actually played to Benson's strengths and was a lazy choice by the writers. From season 5 onwards this changed and I could engage more with her.