Was Tara Abusing Willow in Passive-Agressive Ways?

[gite63]

no. but it proves to me that in circumstances when she fels cornered she is cabable to do potentially harmful and morally wrong things for selfish reasons.

The thing is that it was a pattern of Willow's, to try to easy the pain, fix things with magic (because she could); she did it so many times, time after time seeing the consequences and not learning anything from them. This wasn't Tara's case; she just make a mistake, and we are all bound to make mistakes in life...

 

[thetopher]

Intent matters.
Tara wanted to hide her demon side and so cast a spell with an unforseen side effect. Willow's spell was intended to toy with Tara's mind so they wouldn't have had a fight.
And Tara stil took more responsibility than Willow did when her spell went wrong. Comparing 'Family' and 'Tabula Rasa' is apples and oranges.

 

[Wildfly]

That's exactly what I said.



No. The Imperius curse is not just mind control. It's complete body control. You can make the person do whatever you wished them to do, including jumping off a building or killing someone else. Not remotely similar to what Tara did. Once again, how does that even equate to rape? There's zero relation between what Tara did and rape. I'm not saying what Tara did was right, but there's a big, big difference between mind control, and the spell Tara performed. She didn't alter the group's mental capacity in any way.



Clearly the group decided that. You may not like it, but it's cannon that they forgave her, so clearly they chose to excuse her. Please explain to me how Willow's intentions were good when she decided to erase Tara's memory, cause I just don't see it. The spell Tara performed was done out of fear due to her abusive past. She did it because she did not want to go back to that abusive family. It wasn't just about having an uncomfortable discussion in the group, Tara was petrified that she would have to relive what she went through growing up, and what her mother went through. Willow erased Tara's memory because at that point she didn't give one shit about Tara's feelings, she would rather have a shell of her girlfriend than have someone question her addiction. If you can't see the difference between the two events than so be it, I will stop debating it.



Forget Tabula Rasa? Willow erased their entire lives! And although the spell affected everyone, it was aimed at Tara and Buffy. And had Willow not been caught, she would have done it over and over again.

I still think you guys are being sentimental waving off as unimportant and harmless Tara's spell that was super invasive just because she was miserable when she did it and she was always nice, & never wanted yo hurt anyone.

Say i alter your perception so you'll see things different than they are, with the best intentions. For example someone is poor and lives in a ghastly, polluted neighbourhood with the clouds obscuring the sky in a rat-infested apartment. Instead, I'll present him a paradise with meadows, blue skies and so on, without asking him. Everyone's happy, no one is rioting. There is not even the slightest treat as in Tara's invisible demons case.

I give you different input. It may or may not affect your decisions and actions but clearly you're in control of your limbs, etc
 

Intent matters.
Tara wanted to hide her demon side and so cast a spell with an unforseen side effect. Willow's spell was intended to toy with Tara's mind so they wouldn't have had a fight.
And Tara stil took more responsibility than Willow did when her spell went wrong. Comparing 'Family' and 'Tabula Rasa' is apples and oranges.

She took responsibility? How?
 

The thing is that it was a pattern of Willow's, to try to easy the pain, fix things with magic (because she could); she did it so many times, time after time seeing the consequences and not learning anything from them. This wasn't Tara's case; she just make a mistake, and we are all bound to make mistakes in life...

Yes. Clearly, Willow repeated her pattern trying to solve her problems, Buffy's problems (tabula rasa), the problems in their relationship, did that transportation spell to Glory that also caused her harm, brought back Buffy which was potentially dangerous. Tara would never do such things, she is more passive, she misused magic only once, for herself.
I agree that Willow is arrogant and so on and clearly plays with forces that eventually kick her in the ass.
Tara is the nice one, she is the girl who sits back and warns others not to overexert themselves and provides moral support. Really cute. I don't respect her like i do Buffy, Kennedy, Willow and Spike who take their fate in their hands and protect their loved ones, even if sometimes they mess up royally.

 

[Lyri]

She said she would leave. She was willing to go home to her father, she was willing to put herself back into that abusive, possibly-violent, loveless, depressing environment because of how guilty she felt over what she'd done. How is that NOT taking responsibility?

Willow never once apologized for what she did to Tara's mind, or to everyone's mind in 'Tebula Rasa'. The only time she felt any sort of guilt was when she caused Dawn physical harm.

And it's got NOTHING to do with sentimentality or how 'nice' Tara is, so please don't put words in our mouths. We're just looking at the fact that Willow cause FAR more damage than Tara ever did, and she did it all with intent, where as what Tara did was accidental and borne through fear. Willow just wanted to make her life easier.

 

[Blaze]

I still think you guys are being sentimental waving off as unimportant and harmless Tara's spell that was super invasive just because she was miserable when she did it and she was always nice, & never wanted yo hurt anyone.

Say i alter your perception so you'll see things different than they are, with the best intentions. For example someone is poor and lives in a ghastly, polluted neighbourhood with the clouds obscuring the sky in a rat-infested apartment. Instead, I'll present him a paradise with meadows, blue skies and so on, without asking him. Everyone's happy, no one is rioting. There is not even the slightest treat as in Tara's invisible demons case.

I give you different input. It may or may not affect your decisions and actions but clearly you're in control of your limbs, etc

I'm not excusing the behavior. It WAS wrong. But the difference here is you're implying Tara wanted to just alter every one's perception and make them blind to demons. That was not her intention. Her intention was to hide her own demon, nothing more. Yes it's wrong, but she didn't go into it with the intent to blind everyone, not like Willow did in Tabula Rasa. Tara wanted to hide that one aspect of her, but the spell backfired. A better comparison would be someone in real life lying about who they are because they're scared people will judge them. It's not like she wanted to go into perfect la la land and make everyone happy (that would be Xander's job).

 

[Wildfly]

She said she would leave. She was willing to go home to her father, she was willing to put herself back into that abusive, possibly-violent, loveless, depressing environment because of how guilty she felt over what she'd done. How is that NOT taking responsibility?

so she went home? Must have missed that. But i don't think so, really not. She assumed she'd be sent off, so she passively agreed. She never insisted that she was wrong and that she should leave. She just whined that Spike hurt her nose 🙂 and all forgave her. it was so very touching.

Willow never once apologized for what she did to Tara's mind, or to everyone's mind in 'Tebula Rasa'. The only time she felt any sort of guilt was when she caused Dawn physical harm.

Willow did apologize after something blue, and after tabula rasa she was left by Tara so we dont know if she would have. But what if she would have? We're discussing here if altering one's mind can be excusable. I maintain it can't no matter the case. You can forgive or try to help. It doesn't change the fact that it's wrong.

And it's got NOTHING to do with sentimentality or how 'nice' Tara is, so please don't put words in our mouths. We're just looking at the fact that Willow cause FAR more damage than Tara ever did, and she did it all with intent, where as what Tara did was accidental and borne through fear. Willow just wanted to make her life easier.

Tara also wanted to make her life easier. So if i get your meaning the intent is what counts? Or was it the damage? So if Tara's spell would have caused the death by invisible demons for all involved then she'd be more wrong than Willow where the biggest damage was Tara's hurt feelings?

 

[Lyri]

She was WILLING to leave. She said, and I quote: 'I'll go, I've very sorry.' To which her father replies: 'The camper's outside.' And Tara then starts moving towards the door, with intent of getting in said camper. She only stops when Willow makes her.

So yes, intent matters, as does taking responsibility for ones actions. Would you treat a person who's car brakes fail and results in them killing someone the same way as someone who shoots a person in the head? They both killed someone, but in very, very different ways. Do they both deserve the same amount of scorn? Of punishment?

The same applies to Willow and Tara. They both cast spells, they both caused damage, but Willow cast her spells with the specific intention of manipulating someone's mind and taking away their right to choose and make their own decisions. Tara's spell was to possibly save her life as she thought that she would have been in mortal danger had the SLAYER found out that a demon had been living among them for over a year.

And Willow cause FAR more damage than Tara's 'hurt feelings'. She broke Dawn's arm, she caused a car crash, she caused everyone to lose their memories and their lives, she lied to everyone, she threatened Giles, and she refused to listen to people when they tried to tell her that she had a problem. That's a lot more than someone's hurt feelings.

 

[Wildfly]

I'm not excusing the behavior. It WAS wrong.

So it is wrong then what Tara did. I thought you guys said it was nothing.

But the difference here is you're implying Tara wanted to just alter every one's perception and make them blind to demons. That was not her intention. Her intention was to hide her own demon, nothing more. Yes it's wrong, but she didn't go into it with the intent to blind everyone, not like Willow did in Tabula Rasa. Tara wanted to hide that one aspect of her, but the spell backfired.

what willow did in Tabula Rasa? Willow wanted something much milder, to help Buffy forget heaven, but her spell backfired. it was also an accident. Same diff, as Dawn would say. Or you really think Willow wanted to wipe out all their memories and make them vulnerable?
 

She was WILLING to leave. She said, and I quote: 'I'll go, I've very sorry.' To which her father replies: 'The camper's outside.' And Tara then starts moving towards the door, with intent of getting in said camper. She only stops when Willow makes her.

So yes, intent matters, as does taking responsibility for ones actions. Would you treat a person who's car brakes fail and results in them killing someone the same way as someone who shoots a person in the head? They both killed someone, but in very, very different ways. Do they both deserve the same amount of scorn? Of punishment?

The same applies to Willow and Tara. They both cast spells, they both caused damage, but Willow cast her spells with the specific intention of manipulating someone's mind and taking away their right to choose and make their own decisions. Tara's spell was to possibly save her life as she thought that she would have been in mortal danger had the SLAYER found out that a demon had been living among them for over a year.

And Willow cause FAR more damage than Tara's 'hurt feelings'. She broke Dawn's arm, she caused a car crash, she caused everyone to lose their memories and their lives, she lied to everyone, she threatened Giles, and she refused to listen to people when they tried to tell her that she had a problem. That's a lot more than someone's hurt feelings.

@Lyri, forget for a sec about poor Tara and wicked Willow.
Do you think it's wrong or not if i manipulate your mind to make see things that aint there or make things that there disappear? I assure you i have perfectly good reasons and you probably won't come to harm, because my magic is perfectly safe.

 

[Blaze]

So it is wrong then what Tara did. I thought you guys said it was nothing.

I never said it was nothing.

what willow did in Tabula Rasa? Willow wanted something much milder, to help Buffy forget heaven, but her spell backfired. it was also an accident. Same diff, as Dawn would say. Or you really think Willow wanted to wipe out all their memories and make them vulnerable?

Willow wanted to erase memories of two people she loved because she didn't want to deal with her problems and her addiction. Tara never erased anyone's memory. Willow did not erase Tara's memory to help her, not at all. You might be able to make an argument out of that for Buffy, but not for Tara.

 

[Lyri]

I NEVER said that Tara was right in what she did, so please, again, do not put words in my mouth.

I merely said that what Tara did doesn't even come close to what Willow did. Tara made one mistake that didn't actually result in anyone getting hurt or killed, a mistake that she apologized for and learned from. We never see Tara try anything like that ever again. Willow made several mistakes that resulted in people getting hurt, mistakes that she didn't learn from and never apologized for until it was way too late. And we see her continue to use the same spell even after Tara finds out about it.

They were both wrong in what they did, but like in my analogy, their mistakes are on vastly different scales and don't deserve to be treated the same.

 

[Wildfly]

Willow wanted to erase memories of two people she loved. Tara never erased anyone's memory.

in a misguided attempt to help Buffy that totally backfired. i still don't see how altering one's perception is better than erasing a conversation.
in my book both count as mind control. i am too lazy to look for quotations, but my impression is that for you invisible demons < invisible memories.

Again, I agree that Willow was wrong.
I say that Willow needed help. Tara couldn't help her, couldn't make an impression on her, give her an alternative as Kennedy did later.
She was all 'Willow, you're using too much magic' also as in - 'oh, don't do a teleportation spell you did to Glory next time, magic of that magnitude is dangerous.'
With the thought, probably, that Buffy or Spike or someone else, (not her or her dear Willow) will handle Glory.
When Willow spun out of control, she left, not being able to do anything about it or deal with it. I say fine. She couldn't do anything anyway.
When Willow was back in control, so was Tara back in the relationship.

I don't see her as a person of high moral values or strength or sharp mind. I see her as a pretty selfish but nice girl with low self-esteem and some average magic abilities and readiness to wait while others solve her problems. A girl with nice manners and a soothing voice ready to listen to others.
If she encounters trouble, she runs. She ran from her abusive family (good for her) waited out while Willow decided who will be her lover Oz or her, waited to see if Willow can resolve her addiction issues and when she couldn't, she left.
Then when Willow was back and more or less fine and went to seek out Tara to prove it to her and convince her to get back together, she did come back.
That's Tara for you. Always passive. And she acts as is she is her own grandma.

And again, I am not saying she was wrong when she left. Actually that's better for all concerned, (maybe except poor Dawn). I just don't respect her for it.

i feel our arguments becoming a bit repetitive, let's just say we agree to disagree 🙂

 

[gite63]

Tara also wanted to make her life easier. So if i get your meaning the intent is what counts? Or was it the damage?

Well, it's human nature to be more forgiven if the consequences are none. If somebody had died because of Tara's spell, things would be more complicated and Tara herself would be horrified by what she did – but as I said before, Tara wasn't a bad person or a irresponsible one; she did make a mistake, that's all.

In Willow's case, she did several, one after the other, to make her life better (no, she didn't want to make Buffy happier, she wanted Buffy to forget that she was in Heaven and was pulled out of there by her best friend). What if had Dawn died or was severely injured in the car accident? What if had Buffy had sex with Spike? What if had somebody died at the Magic Box (Xander, Dawn, Anya, Giles) because they thought they were defenseless against monsters that they didn't know that existed? What if had Willow ended the world because she was in pain? I think Willow got away with murder too many times...

 

[Lyri]

I think we should just agree to disagree because I will never EVER understand how Tara could be considered selfish for getting herself out of an abusive and manipulative relationship.

If this was the real world, we would be praising someone in Tara's situation for having the strength to pull herself out. You yourself admitted that Tara did the right thing for her. So to call her selfish after saying that is something that confuses the hell out of me.

 

[Mr Trick]

Yeah, and simply we all make mistakes, its how we respond to those mistakes that count.

 

[Wildfly]

I think we should just agree to disagree because I will never EVER understand how Tara could be considered selfish for getting herself out of an abusive and manipulative relationship.


If this was the real world, we would be praising someone in Tara's situation for having the strength to pull herself out. You yourself admitted that Tara did the right thing for her. So to call her selfish after saying that is something that confuses the hell out of me.

Again, it was the right thing for everyone concerned, Tara couldn't help anyway. She could receive help or be in a team and follow orders with the best intentions, that's all.
Why I think Tara is selfish? Give me one selfless act Tara did to actually help others (taking to them doesn't count) on her own expense. Maybe i am wrong, but cant think of one. i can find examples for Angel, Anya, Buffy, Cordy, Dawn, Giles, Faith, Joyce, Oz, Spike, Xander... and yes, even Willow. Especially Willow, who was told that her magic is their only hope against Angelus in season 2 (but no pressure) and who saved the scoobies many times and created slayers by "using too much magic"

What that miserable excuse for a witch called Tara did? Her highlights were doing the invisible demon spells, leaving Tara and dying.

 

[Lyri]

How about giving up her time to help Buffy when Buffy thought she came back wrong? Giving up her time to help Dawn? Saving everyone when Buffy was trying to kill them in 'Normal Again'? And, the biggest one of all, refusing to tell Glory who the Key was and getting her brain sucked for her selflessness?

Selfish? Tara? No.

 

[Mr Trick]

Again, it was the right thing for everyone concerned, Tara couldn't help anyway. She could receive help or be in a team and follow orders with the best intentions, that's all.
Why I think Tara is selfish? Give me one selfless act Tara did to actually help others (taking to them doesn't count) on her own expense. Maybe i am wrong, but cant think of one. i can find examples for Angel, Anya, Buffy, Cordy, Dawn, Giles, Faith, Joyce, Oz, Spike, Xander... and yes, even Willow. Especially Willow, who was told that her magic is their only hope against Angelus in season 2 (but no pressure) and who saved the scoobies many times and created slayers by "using too much magic"

Well a selfless act can be defined in many different ways, but alright I can think of a few. One, how she was there for Buffy and never judged her over the whole Spike thing. Two, looking after Dawn when both Willow and Buffy were not around to. Three, sticking up for Willow against Anya when she was trying to force her to use her magic.

 

[Wildfly]

How about giving up her time to help Buffy when Buffy thought she came back wrong?
Giving up her time to help Dawn?

Talking doesn't count. I admitted already that one of her virtues is that she is a good listener. I want actions as in risking her skin, like all of them did at some time.

Saving everyone when Buffy was trying to kill them in 'Normal Again'?

Better. I still think she happened to be there on accident and saved her own skin, and if someone could have done it instead of her she'd be right behind her. But true, she did save them.

And, the biggest one of all, refusing to tell Glory who the Key was and getting her brain sucked for her selflessness?

wasnt Tara sitting on a park bench then Glory came along and sucked out her brain in an instant? I don't remember...


Selfish? Tara? No.[/QUOTE]
 

Well a selfless act can be defined in many different ways, but alright I can think of a few. One, how she was there for Buffy and never judged her over the whole Spike thing. Two, looking after Dawn when both Willow and Buffy were not around to. Three, sticking up for Willow against Anya when she was trying to force her to use her magic.

She is quite nice and not bigoted, i give her that. But i like anya's and cordy's frankness better. Not to mention their wit and bravery and how they protect the people they love.

 

[Lyri]

No, she asks Tara who the Key is, and Tara refuses to answer. She tortures Tara, brakes her hand and Tara still refuses to give her Dawn's name. Glory only brain sucks her when she realizes she's not going to get anything from her.

 

[Mr Trick]

Sometimes it is harder or means more to constantly be there for people in ways that don't involve superpowers or actions. I am sure there are times when Tara has battled along side the Scoobies, but it was clear than her powers was never as advanced as Willow's. Just things like being there for Dawn when the others either weren't or couldn't is a big help because it allows them to more easily focus on the battle.