Was Willow Evil or Mentally unstable?
- Thread starter Joshua
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Robb Stark
King in the North
Interesting question; it reminds me of a monologue from a series of books I read when I was younger. They were books written by Raymond E Feist and in them one of the characters claims that evil by its very nature is insane, and it makes an interesting argument.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...a=X&ei=LSEQUfvlC86a1AXnyIHQCw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ
This is definitely applicable in the Willow situation: where she wants to destroy the entire world to erase her own pain. That's clearly insane, even more so than her plan for revenge. At the very least it's over the top, considering suicide would have created the same effect with much less causalities and even less trouble/interference from the scoobies and such. Its very illogical, and therefore tends toward the insane, therefore evil=insanity.
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V
Vorchan
I totally agree about evil as a state of insanity! Couldn't agree more!
E
EffyStonem
Guest
Correct me if I'm wrong but I always thought that Willow's motivation to end the world was not to end her own pain but to end everyone else's. She even says to Giles that she can feel everyone's pain (including his) and that the suffering has to end.
I always assumed a combination of the dark magic and literally feeling every human being's pain is what drove Willow to try to attempt ending the world. Imagine getting whomped with the pain of 6 billion people. A similar thing happens to Cordy in To Shanshu in LA and she goes near-catatonic. It would be a hell of thing to have to deal with and it's understandable how it would push Willow (or anyone) over the edge.
That is what she says, but again she wants to end their pain, because she is feeling it, as such suicide would still have the same result, i.e. she would no longer feel their pain.
What's all this about magic possessing Willow? She wasn't a puppet for magic to control, magic isn't even a sentient entity. She was consumed by magic, consumed by power, but she was entirely herself. She was basically acting on her powerful emotions, facilitated by her magic.
Regarding most of the OP's questions I just could not agree more with Gum Gnome 33
Regarding Giles and the Scoobies lack of confronting Willow and making her pay, I always felt that her own guilt was deemed the worst possible punishment and that they approached her particular situation with an air of caution.
Willow was so powerful and so potentially volatile by this point that Giles' main focus, which he considered imperative, was to teach her to control herself and to understand what she'd done, who she was, and what she could do.
Regarding Giles and the Scoobies lack of confronting Willow and making her pay, I always felt that her own guilt was deemed the worst possible punishment and that they approached her particular situation with an air of caution.
Willow was so powerful and so potentially volatile by this point that Giles' main focus, which he considered imperative, was to teach her to control herself and to understand what she'd done, who she was, and what she could do.
ILLYRIAN
Druish Pervonian Wizard
Go on then, I'll put it out there.
Buffy looks at who she knew as Willow, she tries to reason with her, only to be told that Willow doesn't live here anymore.
So, had the First made a pre-emptive strike?
Had it replaced Willow's soul with its non corporeal self?
How was it defeated, well it wasn't by Giles, although he was required to put his life on the line as the delivery agent of the coven in Devon/Cornwall UK.
Xanders masterful recognition of timing tapped into the humanity installed in Willow by the coven.
The coven recognised it wasn't Willow, they foresaw that an evil had possessed her. That it was gaining a foothold in her until it eventually took total control.
If it was a mentally unstable Willow that caused the problem, why would the coven have sent to her (via Giles) that small element of humanity?
Buffy looks at who she knew as Willow, she tries to reason with her, only to be told that Willow doesn't live here anymore.
So, had the First made a pre-emptive strike?
Had it replaced Willow's soul with its non corporeal self?
How was it defeated, well it wasn't by Giles, although he was required to put his life on the line as the delivery agent of the coven in Devon/Cornwall UK.
Xanders masterful recognition of timing tapped into the humanity installed in Willow by the coven.
The coven recognised it wasn't Willow, they foresaw that an evil had possessed her. That it was gaining a foothold in her until it eventually took total control.
If it was a mentally unstable Willow that caused the problem, why would the coven have sent to her (via Giles) that small element of humanity?
Evil Angelus 95
[No message]
Really cool theory about it being The First [MENTION=7336]ILLYRIAN[/MENTION] I wish The First had be explored more as a character in terms of back mythology.
I think that comment about Willow not living here was just a reference to the fact that the 'Willow' Buffy et al knew and loved was no longer there. Her anger and fury had taken her so far down this path that she had all but lost her grip on humanity. I still however think it was Willow in some form or other.
As for the magic from the Coven she took of off Giles. That was explained as tapping into HER remaining humanity wasn't it?
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
The First can only take the form of someone who has died, so unless something dramatically bad has happened to Willow that we don't know about, this would not be possible. It is possible for a possessing entity to take over, but the manner in which Willow recovered indicates that it was Willow who made that statement, just to emphasize the amount of change that had happened.
I'm so glad people here don't say "Evil Willow" (or if they do, I don't see it). It's such a negative connotation.
I think the grief that came from Tara's death was too much for Willow to cope with, and the magicks she had been struggling with rose to the surface as she lost control of her emotions. We often read or see in stories or shows that magic stems from emotions, and it is the same here.
Even the magicks she absorbed aren't evil in themselves. Dark magic isn't evil unless wielded by one who intends to use them as such. I don't believe Willow intended to do any harm until she lost control of herself.
I don't think the magic takes over. Willow has a choice with each thing she does in those episodes. That's what makes it so much more powerful and hard to accept...sweet Willow choosing to destroy people in the cruelest ways possible.
But because she had a choice with what she did, it makes it even more impressive that she was able to survive and even recover from it. This dark turn was crucial for her character.
I think the grief that came from Tara's death was too much for Willow to cope with, and the magicks she had been struggling with rose to the surface as she lost control of her emotions. We often read or see in stories or shows that magic stems from emotions, and it is the same here.
Even the magicks she absorbed aren't evil in themselves. Dark magic isn't evil unless wielded by one who intends to use them as such. I don't believe Willow intended to do any harm until she lost control of herself.
I don't think the magic takes over. Willow has a choice with each thing she does in those episodes. That's what makes it so much more powerful and hard to accept...sweet Willow choosing to destroy people in the cruelest ways possible.
But because she had a choice with what she did, it makes it even more impressive that she was able to survive and even recover from it. This dark turn was crucial for her character.
SRMarx
[No message]
Evil or mentally unstable.
Hmm, a real world example would be a suicide bomber who puts on the explosive vest after their loved one(s) just got shot to death by stray bullets.
Are suicide bombers "evil or mentally unstable?".
In my opinion, they're both: Immoral and probably emotionally charged, but isn't just about everyone who goes on a killing spree?
Dark willow in season 6 was a suicide bomber times a zillion. As she wanted to kill absolutely everyone.
Hmm, a real world example would be a suicide bomber who puts on the explosive vest after their loved one(s) just got shot to death by stray bullets.
Are suicide bombers "evil or mentally unstable?".
In my opinion, they're both: Immoral and probably emotionally charged, but isn't just about everyone who goes on a killing spree?
Dark willow in season 6 was a suicide bomber times a zillion. As she wanted to kill absolutely everyone.
I think maybe a little of both. and something bothered me was that she was too powerful in the episode villains it kind of bugged me. I mean fine she had some powerful magic but the part where warren hits her with an axe and she just gets up was BS. she was a powerful witch not an immortal.
Evil Angelus 95
Total Dork
Well, take into account that Willow had absorbed numerous amounts of Dark Magick from the books. We have no way of telling exactly how much she had in her system, even before she drained Rack. Factor in the Power she already had from before she had even started using Dark Magicks, and the puzzle is complete.
It's entirely possible that the Dark Magicks softened or neglected the axe so that Willow wasn't hurt in any way.
Zeppelin92
Potential
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I think at a certain point she wasn't even in control of what she was doing. The whole idea behind the episode title 'Seeing Red' is that she was so angry about Tara's death that nothing else mattered. Once she absorbed the black magic books at the shop I think she was almost possessed by it. Certain things she says like "I am the Magicks." or "Willow's not home right now", leads me to believe that the magic was controlling her more than she was controlling it.
R
Robb Stark
Solid point.
Blaze
this
@ Evil Angelus 95
I'm just saying that it made it a little frustrating for me that is all it bugged me i feel that it would have been a little better had they just skipped her getting hit with an axe and brushing it off like a bee sting
I'm just saying that it made it a little frustrating for me that is all it bugged me i feel that it would have been a little better had they just skipped her getting hit with an axe and brushing it off like a bee sting
Evil Angelus 95
Total Dork
I know, I can understand that. I'm just saying that it's clear why she did that, the Magicks were basically taking over her and powering her. Kinda like Buffy's Slayer Healing a little bit, but on a much faster scale.
Hopefully I'm making sense 😕