Was Willow Evil or Mentally unstable?
- Thread starter Joshua
- Start date
Yeah, her 'friends' betrayed her! Some Friends!😡
It's like telling your 'drug addicted sister (and best friend)' "We need you to take these steroids and bust us out of here."😡
NOT REAL FRIENDS AT ALL!!!!!😡😡😡
---------- Post added at 07:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 AM ----------
I think she'd Gone Evil due to her grief and that grief had rendered her mentally unstable.
To me, she seems to be a sort-of princess who got involved in the mob (organized crime), and due to a propensity that developed in her: had a romantic/sexual relationship with a girl, that developed into something truly HORRIBLE!
Human beings Will be respected; NOT Bad Behaviors!
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
Magic isn't actually an addiction, it was used like an addiction storyline in season 6, but it isn't actually an addiction.
Willow in season 7 isn't a junkie. Season 7 abandons the magic as a drug/addiction storyline.
Magic is a part of Willow. Drugs are not part of a junkie, Alcohol is not part of an alcoholic - being an alcoholic is part of that person, but the actual substance isn't a part of them. That is where the metaphor ends for addiction in Willow. Magic is a part of her, it's not something she can quit, and not becasue she is addicted to it, but becasue it's a part of her, the same way the slayer power is a part of Buffy.
There is no cure of addiction without complete sobriety, Willow on the other hand has to use magic again becasue it's part of her, at that point we have to suspend what we know about addiction in the real word and realise that the BtVS logic behind magic is different.
It's a poor storyline becasue the writers went so far out of their way to depict Willow "getting high" off magic that they made the story way too obvious, and then retconned it in season 7. But Willow got high off magic like twice (?), her real addiction was how she was using magic, she was using it to fix things, and not in the way an alcoholic using alcohol to get over their problems, Willows magic could actively work on other people (erasing memories etc), her addiction was 'ease of use'/control rather then the magic herself.
Willow in season 7 isn't a junkie. Season 7 abandons the magic as a drug/addiction storyline.
Magic is a part of Willow. Drugs are not part of a junkie, Alcohol is not part of an alcoholic - being an alcoholic is part of that person, but the actual substance isn't a part of them. That is where the metaphor ends for addiction in Willow. Magic is a part of her, it's not something she can quit, and not becasue she is addicted to it, but becasue it's a part of her, the same way the slayer power is a part of Buffy.
There is no cure of addiction without complete sobriety, Willow on the other hand has to use magic again becasue it's part of her, at that point we have to suspend what we know about addiction in the real word and realise that the BtVS logic behind magic is different.
It's a poor storyline becasue the writers went so far out of their way to depict Willow "getting high" off magic that they made the story way too obvious, and then retconned it in season 7. But Willow got high off magic like twice (?), her real addiction was how she was using magic, she was using it to fix things, and not in the way an alcoholic using alcohol to get over their problems, Willows magic could actively work on other people (erasing memories etc), her addiction was 'ease of use'/control rather then the magic herself.
Evil Angelus 95
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SRMarx
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Solid point about drugs not being part of the drug addict, physically.
Magic Wasn't originally part of Willow, she got it attached to her early on in the series, and it stayed! That's exactly how evil non-human entities work, people! Once they get in they are notoriously difficult to get out!
As for addictions Changing you: They do! They alter your mental chemistry! I mean respect, but Black Eye Guy: Get it through your head: You Are NOT The Absolute Authority on Anything Except your Views!- and even then, those can change over the course of your life!
Magic Wasn't originally part of Willow, she got it attached to her early on in the series, and it stayed! That's exactly how evil non-human entities work, people! Once they get in they are notoriously difficult to get out!
As for addictions Changing you: They do! They alter your mental chemistry! I mean respect, but Black Eye Guy: Get it through your head: You Are NOT The Absolute Authority on Anything Except your Views!- and even then, those can change over the course of your life!
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
Do you have a source for that?
Everything in the show, implies that Willow is a natural at magic, one of the most (if not THE most) powerful witches.
Willow first big spell, restoring Angels soul, involved something in Willow we dont fully know, something comes out of her and knocks that spell out of the park.
I dont think we can categorically deny that there is a possibility that magic has always been within Willow.
Did I say I was?
Innitially she's your ordinary, sweet, brilliant (on about the level of a genius), Jewish girl... who's only character flaw seems to be a taste for 'hacking' (that Can get you into trouble- changing someone else's passwords to their accounts and such)(forget not, evil never comes in full, only a little bit at a time.).
Then about at the time Angelus is turned Back into Angel (via his soul being restored), she has a 'presence' come through her, she feels it... and begins speaking in another language. We are never told if that 'presence' is something very bad or something possibly good- that's kind of left up to the fan.
It is shortly thereafter that her behavior goes substantially downhill, in increments... ending with something that amounts to attempted mass murder! On the way there (to badness) she commits Rape!😡 I don't like to think that at all!
It is equally possible At Least that it Came in due to her hobby of dabbleing in the occult!
Your words clearly imply that you do!😡
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
I dont know she never really seemed into her religion, her religion was only brought up as a counterpoint when something from another religion is mentioned ("santa always misses my house" etc)
Yep her hacking Sunnydales sewage lines layout was the start of her downfall? Skills are evil, what you do with them are.
Thats exactly the point, you dont know it's a 'presence', we dont know what it is. It could have been an external thing, it could have come from within her.
How come she could tap into that, but others couldn't? The show suggests anyone can do magic, but it also suggests some people have a natural affinity for it.
I wouldn't say shortly, Willow does no evil magic throughout season 3, 4 or 5. The first time we see her embrace the darkerside of magic is when she goes against Glory. Bringing Buffy was the catalyst to Dark Willow.
Meh, who in the characters hasn't been responsible for a death or two?
Also not rape, in my opinion, respectfully 🙂
It's not dabbling, she's way beyond dabbling, it's her way of life! She's an all powerful-force-of-good-lesbian-witch, that is her character.
As do yours. That's what happens when you write your opinion.
First off, I am glad that respect is going both ways again, the thing is, people Will disagree in the arts (that's what stories are- arts), what you see is NOT nessessarily what I see.
She's hardly all-powerful if she got herself so messed up, and (I frankly don't know What books you have on this series, Sir) but if you read the Sourcebooks, even DarkWillow (Willow when she's bad) Wants to do and be good! She's a very loving girl (or young woman- same difference asside from age and physical development)... in fact, it's her Desire for a loving relationship that leads to what I call her 'using a spell to drug Tara so they'd be sexually intimate' (That, Sir, is what I call her 'Crossing the line into Rape).- the authors actually came out in the interviews (on the DVDs) and said that magic is a metafore for: lesbian sex, addiction, drugs... and such.
Just because someone has an Orientation to do something horrible Doesn't mean that they Should!
I am a little sensitive to consent issues and sexual misconduct, as you people may have guessed (I just don't like such behavior), and I consider (though I may be disagreed with), even Partial Consent (regarding intimacy) as Total Nonconsent!
As I said about Willow: she loves, but wrongly... oh, her love of Xander is propper, (she seems to percieve him as a brother of hers- in all but reality) and that's good! She seems to have a sister's love of Buffy by the way. To verify; consider their hanging-out style.
Maybe that's just me... but that's how I see it.
Skills Aren't Evil, it's what you Do with them that's good or evil... you cracked me up about the hacking sewege lines,. I was talking about the computers (other people's accounts and such... for instance: (and I am NOT threatening Anybody- this is just a scenerio) how would you feel if someone changed your password on a shopping website and ran up a bill for you? THAT'S Deeply Evil, by the way. (running up somebody else's credit card.)
People have gifts, it Doesn't mean that they have to use them for badness.
As far as behavior- NOBODY in that series behaves themself right, totally; according to the essay books: Buffy has horrible problems with lust, Dawn in the series becomes a thief (Willow starts stealing magic ingreadents too). I think the reason Giles didn't kill Willow when she was brought back to England was that he recognized his darkness in that deed and said "NOT AGAIN! I Won't Do It! This homosidal trait Ends NOW!" to himself.
What about your take?
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
Being all powerful is what allowed her to get so messed up, she has to the power to skip an argument and she wrongfully used it, but the fact she could do it is that makes her all powerful. Also season 6 was 3 seasons ago, Willow now is an all powerful witch and has overcome the addiction side of magic, she doesn't use it in the same way she did in season 6.
I've read very very few of the book, I don't think any of the books are cannon and only a few comics are cannon, so they are nothing but opinion pieces.
But yes you are right, Willow wanted to destroy the world, not to casue suffering, but becasue Giles opened her up to the worlds suffering and she wanted to stop it. She wanted to end suffering, yes it was a bad plan, and involved killing everyone, but there is logic to her terrible logic.
This is incorrect and exactly why, for me, it's not rape.
She did not erase her memory to have sex with Tara, she erases her memory to skip the fight. After she does the spell, they cuddle up in bed, in their pyjamas, the scene doesn't indicate the start of sex.
It actually tries hard to do the opposite, they could have had angry sex while fighting, the scene instead shows the two of them cuddling up and being cozy, so as to show they aren't mad at one another, which was the exact purpose of the spell, to skip the fight.
Had Willow wanted to just have sex with Tara, she would have just done that spell Amy does in the Bronze a few episodes later, were she waves her hand and some random girl seemingly drops everything to go for Willow. Making her have sex seems to be an easy spell, but erasing a memory is a completely different spell, with a different agenda and it wasn't sexually motivated.
Not always though, they have used the depiction of magic to give the viewer a visual connection to sex. Like the scene where Willow enters another world, were her and Tara are intense, panting, holing hands and sweating, till Willow falls backwards out of her body. The network the show was on wouldn't have allowed a scene of lesbian sex on air, we know that because Whedon has mentioned having to fight for their kiss in The Body, having this scene depict sex was a place holder for the actual action, a way around the television guidelines.
But magic isn't always a metaphor for Sex, addiction and drugs, sometimes it's just magic.
I agree with you, the issue is very hard to navigate, and consent is a very important part of sex (THE most important), but the issue is that Willows spell was little more then a lie in real world application. There is no real world version of the spell.
If someone roofies someone and has sex, the person can't give consent. If someone forces themselves on someone while the person is opposed, there is no consent. But what Willow did, was have a fight with someone, roofie them so they forgot the fight and then sometime later slept with them, but the "roofie" wasn't used for sex, it was used to make the person forget the fight, get me?
A roofie makes a person unable to say no to sex.
Willows spell skipped a fight, it wasn't a sexually orientated spell.
Her love of Tara is proper also, her love of magic during season 6 is the only problem when it comes to love for Willow.
Her relationship with Kennedy gets her back on track to being the most powerful person in the universe. Love is not her issue, it's power.
I agree, but Willows never done that, presumably she could (or she could have in 1996 and computers lacking security)
I definitely dont agree, except about Dawn, she did deal with a klepto period, but Buffy doesn't have issues with lust! She's slept with 4 people over the course of the show on tv, I dont like or think of her relationship with Spike as healthy, but she was with the one person and just enhjoyed sex with him - that by itself isn't a problem, but the show even shows she's using as a form of escapism, it's not a lust problem.
I dont think Willow counts as steeling, Giles didn't care.
And Giles didn't kill Willow becasue she is his friend, Giles has no problem with murder, we know that officially from season 8, Killing Willow would never have crossed his mind, and not becasue of a conscience, but becasue of friendship (and honestly, no one cares she killed Warren, they've be more horrified to know she killed Bambi at the start of the season. Some viewers care, but the scoobies dont care, me personally, I think he had it coming, so dont care she killed him, same why I dont mind Giles killed Ben, Buffy killed knights and Xander is responsible for the deaths in OMWF)
ILLYRIAN
Druish Pervonian Wizard
Vorchan,
you really don't understand much do you either that or you choose to ignore the facts and state your own misguided beliefs.
You said people see things differently, that they have their own thoughts on what happen(ed). Why didn't you leave it at that?
To go on about Dark Willow's attempt at destroying the world, it appears as though you are blaming Willow.
Try to understand the script - standing in the doorway it said Willow doesn't live here anymore. That seems to mean the evil had taken over.
When 'Dark Willow' tried to destroy the world, WHY did she try to destroy the world?
Evil being Evil was it just for fun - no it wasn't.
'Dark Willow' said, oh those poor bastards, all that suffering, I'm going to stop it. That does not sound like the voice of Evil. That sounds like the spark of humanity that Giles put into her starting to have an effect.
Black Eye Guy
I have told Vorchan (a day or so ago) what to look for in the series, of Willow doing the spell for the purposes of stopping that memory. That all Tara and Willow did on the bed was cuddle. Did it make any difference to Vorchan - no. Vorchan obviously can't be bothered with what is fact or truth, Vorchan thinks that it is rape and nothing will change that belief.
I'm saying this to you B.E.G. so you know it is a waste of time pointing out facts or truth of what the script is.
Vorchan
Where in the series does Willow take a persons shopping account password, is it in the series. Yes Willow did hack into the councils files but as far as I am aware it was used to show Buffy where the electricity cable tunnels are under the town, yet you go on about credit card details, why?
But the Buffy has a horrible problem with lust comments are just plain wrong. Buffy had four sexual partners in seven years, okay two were vampires but lust just doesn't describe the situation. From the number of sexual partners Faith had lust would not have a meaning there either. To me lust might be used if a lot of sexual partners happened per week or month.
Oh and that crap you wrote about what happened to Willow in England. About Giles not killing her. What is it you said he said, 'not again, I won't do it' - he didn't seem to have any problem with Ben.
Also, what makes you think he had a choice with what happened in England?
As far as I was aware Miss Harkness and the Coven were in charge of Willow's learnings. And as Giles respected them so much he wouldn't have gone against what they were doing.
you really don't understand much do you either that or you choose to ignore the facts and state your own misguided beliefs.
You said people see things differently, that they have their own thoughts on what happen(ed). Why didn't you leave it at that?
To go on about Dark Willow's attempt at destroying the world, it appears as though you are blaming Willow.
Try to understand the script - standing in the doorway it said Willow doesn't live here anymore. That seems to mean the evil had taken over.
When 'Dark Willow' tried to destroy the world, WHY did she try to destroy the world?
Evil being Evil was it just for fun - no it wasn't.
'Dark Willow' said, oh those poor bastards, all that suffering, I'm going to stop it. That does not sound like the voice of Evil. That sounds like the spark of humanity that Giles put into her starting to have an effect.
Black Eye Guy
I have told Vorchan (a day or so ago) what to look for in the series, of Willow doing the spell for the purposes of stopping that memory. That all Tara and Willow did on the bed was cuddle. Did it make any difference to Vorchan - no. Vorchan obviously can't be bothered with what is fact or truth, Vorchan thinks that it is rape and nothing will change that belief.
I'm saying this to you B.E.G. so you know it is a waste of time pointing out facts or truth of what the script is.
Vorchan
Where in the series does Willow take a persons shopping account password, is it in the series. Yes Willow did hack into the councils files but as far as I am aware it was used to show Buffy where the electricity cable tunnels are under the town, yet you go on about credit card details, why?
But the Buffy has a horrible problem with lust comments are just plain wrong. Buffy had four sexual partners in seven years, okay two were vampires but lust just doesn't describe the situation. From the number of sexual partners Faith had lust would not have a meaning there either. To me lust might be used if a lot of sexual partners happened per week or month.
Oh and that crap you wrote about what happened to Willow in England. About Giles not killing her. What is it you said he said, 'not again, I won't do it' - he didn't seem to have any problem with Ben.
Also, what makes you think he had a choice with what happened in England?
As far as I was aware Miss Harkness and the Coven were in charge of Willow's learnings. And as Giles respected them so much he wouldn't have gone against what they were doing.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
I have to agree with what some of above says, the 'Dark Willow' situation is not black and white. Willow is in pain and makes the choice to go over to the dark side, but once there it's like she has no choice.
What frustrates me is we don't really see consequences for Willow (I'm not nesserassily talking punishment here), I would've liked to see her wrestle with guilt, redemption and grief for more than just a couple of episodes (her character arc should've been this- not 'finding love with Kennedy' a few months after losing Tara 😡). It should've redefined her character (in a good way! 🙂), instead we just got another Spike redemption arc.🙄
I think to a lot of people it looks like Willow 'got away' with doing a lot of horrible things without consequence, and maybe thats where the very strong feelings thet have come from.
What frustrates me is we don't really see consequences for Willow (I'm not nesserassily talking punishment here), I would've liked to see her wrestle with guilt, redemption and grief for more than just a couple of episodes (her character arc should've been this- not 'finding love with Kennedy' a few months after losing Tara 😡). It should've redefined her character (in a good way! 🙂), instead we just got another Spike redemption arc.🙄
I think to a lot of people it looks like Willow 'got away' with doing a lot of horrible things without consequence, and maybe thats where the very strong feelings thet have come from.
I agree with you completely. I was looking forward to a redemption arc for Willow in season 7 but instead her past actions as 'Dark Willow' just get swept under the rug.
I do feel like the writers made it seem as if she got away with killing Warren and almost ending the world. It makes no sense to me how quick everyone is to trust her again and even encourage her to continue using magic.
A lot of Willow's character could have been better written in season 7, imo.
Basically I read it as Willow winds up in a mental hospital., that's where she's in at the beginning of season 7.- not much on the level of consequences, but still, it's something.
Addicts often do wind up in mental hospitals by the way. And that's pretty much what she is then- an addict.
Good point, though.
Addicts often do wind up in mental hospitals by the way. And that's pretty much what she is then- an addict.
Good point, though.
ILLYRIAN
Druish Pervonian Wizard
SRMarx,
about encouraging Willow to keep doing magic. Willow was taken to Westbury, she was taught about magic by experts.
Vorchan
at the start of season 7 Willow was in Westbury at Giles' house.
about encouraging Willow to keep doing magic. Willow was taken to Westbury, she was taught about magic by experts.
Vorchan
at the start of season 7 Willow was in Westbury at Giles' house.
I agree with the mental hospital analogy while Willow is in England with Giles at the beginning of season 7. And it is something.
But Willow comes home eventually, and everyone seems so quick to trust and forgive her. I just don't see that as very realistic. Even if you want to keep comparing Willow to a recovering drug addict...people don't just forgive solely on the basis of an addict's intention or attempt at recovery.
I don't think Willow was evil. I'm not even sure if I consider her mentally unstable, I mean she was definitely unstable but I think everyone is after such a big lost. She was going through grief but given the power that she has, she took it too a whole new level. The way she reacted is most likely the way I'd be feeling on the inside after my partner being murdered, but the difference is that Willow took it to a literal level (and had the power too do so). She was not in her right mind, but I'm not sure anyone would be under such circumstances.
SRMarx
I think you are right. Not evil, just not in right mind.
I think you misunderstood me. Apologies for not being clearer with that point.
I like the idea of Willow not be discouraged from practicing magic when she's in England and I understand that she was being taught to better understand magic and use magic while she was with Giles. Great.
But from the point of view of Buffy, Xander, Anya, Dawn, etc...
I feel like realistically they would have been a little more cautious about Willow's magic use. That's all I meant. I think it could have been better written: like the Scoobies could have expressed a little more concern about Willow using magic when she returns home. Their last experience with Willow and magic was not a good one.
ILLYRIAN
Druish Pervonian Wizard
About Buffy, Dawn, Xander not being told what Willow did that is more about making a TV show than not telling them. You just have to assume that Giles told them because there is no point repeating it in a short episode, especially when so much more needs to be covered.
So if you take it as said that they knew Willow was taught by those who knew what they were doing. They would feel safer than Willow having taught herself.
I do not accept or like the analogy that Willow was some kind of drug addict, she liked magic and wanted to know more, that is all.
Other ways of looking at that drug addiction analogy, if a person wants to be a doctor, that person learns what they can on the subject then goes to others to be taught. Does the thirst for knowledge make them a drug addict? No it doesn't it just means they want to be better at what they do/ know.
As for the analogy of Willow being taken by Giles to be taught by the coven being likened Willow being in a mental hospital. As far as I am concerned that is just an abhorrent notion.
So if you take it as said that they knew Willow was taught by those who knew what they were doing. They would feel safer than Willow having taught herself.
I do not accept or like the analogy that Willow was some kind of drug addict, she liked magic and wanted to know more, that is all.
Other ways of looking at that drug addiction analogy, if a person wants to be a doctor, that person learns what they can on the subject then goes to others to be taught. Does the thirst for knowledge make them a drug addict? No it doesn't it just means they want to be better at what they do/ know.
As for the analogy of Willow being taken by Giles to be taught by the coven being likened Willow being in a mental hospital. As far as I am concerned that is just an abhorrent notion.
The notion of Willows magic addiction being allegorical for drug addiction is something that there is a lot of textual and extra textual stuff to illustrate its validity. I didn't like it but I don't think its something that can be dismissed... we were meant to view her as a drug addict
ILLYRIAN
Druish Pervonian Wizard
Xin Rong, I'm not saying this about you, you stated you don't agree with it but some
folk might choose to accept Willow as a drug addict, I don't and never will.
The quest for knowledge in a given subject does not make a person a drug addict, take that line of thought to the extreme. Buffy was all about learning more about slayers of the past, could she be descibed as a drug addict?
folk might choose to accept Willow as a drug addict, I don't and never will.
The quest for knowledge in a given subject does not make a person a drug addict, take that line of thought to the extreme. Buffy was all about learning more about slayers of the past, could she be descibed as a drug addict?