Was Willow turning Dark realistic?

To share even my immediate thoughts in full would probably seem to you to be going off topic, so I'll just say I'd have preferred that Willow went dark out of hubris, much like Faith, rather than from magic addiction.
 
Buffy Summers said:
Did you find that Willow turning Dark was portrayed realistically?
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Yes, I do. For most of her life, she strove to hide her inner hostility and resentment at being teased and bullied...her exploration of magic finally gave her the means to control certain aspects of he life. At long last, she didn't feel completely powerless. anymore.

Things were looking up... she wasn't just a miserable nerd doing other people's homework now. And her new friendship with Buffy gave her such happiness...and then her relationship with Oz, which was really sweet for awhile...and then came Veruca. Willow's dark side surfaced when she attempted a spell to cause Oz and Veruca misery...but didn't complete it.

THEN SHE MET TARA. And was completely in love, just blissful beyond belief. When Tara was killed, Willow completely snapped. It was just too much to bear...and she absorbed ALL of that dark magic....and we know what happened after that.

Yes, I DO feel that the portrayal of Dark Willow and the carnage which ensued was absolutely believable...and realistic
 
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No, I don't feel it was realistic at all. I can see Willow using magic as casually as she did, but I don't think that was dark.

I don't think her little party with Amy was true to her personality, and I don't think her trusting Rack was true to her.

I think her killing Warren was true to herself, but then Buffy and Giles both attempted to get revenged for the death or near death of loved ones too
 
I found the beginning of her 'journey into darkness' compelling and interesting but as soon as Rack came into the picture and the writers drew a direct line between drugs and magic, it lost something for me.

It felt like from the writers used Willows addiction as a motive for all her bad behavior, which meant they missed out on a lot of potential nuance and character building in that arc.

I think I would have found Dark Willow more frightening/intriguing if it hadn't been framed so clearly as a relapse.

The addiction metaphor would have worked a lot better if it hadn't been so overt.
One of the things BtVS normally does really well is leaving enough ambiguity in thier monster metaphors that there is space for interpretation. By restricting Willow's dark arc to addiction, they excluded other potentially interesting correlations/conversations.
 
I don't have a problem with her turning dark. My problem is more the series inconsistent writing of magic use through the seasons. I'm sorry (ok not sorry), but the magic addiction story line was just terrible, and didn't even mesh with what came before, or after. 😩
 
Realistic? I suppose I bought Willow has been consumed by her own anger and despair, and due to the timeframe, was still intoxicated with grief. Ultimately, I read her final acts as a suicide attempt. So yes, I mean, black magic is of the Old Ones, and they delight in the ruination of man and mankind, and she is being manipulated by them.
 
For the most part, I think Willow's spiral into Dark Willow was done fairly well. We've seen her in s5 go off the deep end (after Glory hurt Tara - "I owe you pain!") and yet again get another glimpse of Willow resorting to magic to control/fix any issues.

She reacted badly to Tara being hurt - so Tara being killed had to show her going completely dark.

There were moments that were quite dark and raw in terms of dialogue ("I'm not coming back") and when she confronts Buffy with some truths (like her affair with Spike, her not wanting to be alive).
And then we get moments of borderline cheese ("Get off me, superb****!").

Now, would Willow without being a witch have gone this dark? You'd have to say no. But by being engaged with the majicks, some darkness seeps into you. So a tiny seed was planted. And that darkness reared its ugly head.

Thinking about it - Willow almost ends up being like a vampire. Dark Willow has essentially lost her soul, kills, and becomes ruthless. Just what vampires are like.
 
hoponlilmama said:
For the most part, I think Willow's spiral into Dark Willow was done fairly well. We've seen her in s5 go off the deep end (after Glory hurt Tara - "I owe you pain!") and yet again get another glimpse of Willow resorting to magic to control/fix any issues.
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I hate that s much. Oh, she's resorting to use a tool to fix a problem. How very dark. Actually how very human

There should be no difference between the magic used for her revenge run and the magic used to fix Tara's brain and that's used in the final battle with Glory and it is ridiculous that there is
 
garfan said:
There should be no difference between the magic used for her revenge run and the magic used to fix Tara's brain and that's used in the final battle with Glory and it is ridiculous that there is
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There is, however, a long tradition of magic being divided into two types, good magic, and evil magic.

Now, the argument can be made that magic is like technology; it can be used for good or evil but is neutral in and of itself. It is very common in myth, story and legend for this to not be the case, though; magic has an energy in and of itself that taints whatever it is used for. You can try to use darker magic for good, but the darkness will always win out and corrupt the wielder.
 
NotASlayer said:
There is, however, a long tradition of magic being divided into two types, good magic, and evil magic.

Now, the argument can be made that magic is like technology; it can be used for good or evil but is neutral in and of itself. It is very common in myth, story and legend for this to not be the case, though; magic has an energy in and of itself that taints whatever it is used for. You can try to use darker magic for good, but the darkness will always win out and corrupt the wielder.
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the trick is they don't exactly do a good job defining what they good magic and bad magic is. I mean she opens the battle with Glory with pretty basic TK. Why is lightning bolt bad but reaching into Glory's brain good?

The Kalderash have a magical tradition based in vengeance but they don't seem to want to make the entire culture evil do they?

And of course why the hell does the Magic Box sell evil magic paraphernalia if this is actually the case?
 
garfan said:
the trick is they don't exactly do a good job defining what they good magic and bad magic is. I mean she opens the battle with Glory with pretty basic TK. Why is lightning bolt bad but reaching into Glory's brain good?

The Kalderash have a magical tradition based in vengeance but they don't seem to want to make the entire culture evil do they?

And of course why the hell does the Magic Box sell evil magic paraphernalia if this is actually the case?
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I think you answered a lot of that in this bit: "they don't exactly do a good job defining what they good magic and bad magic is".
 
No, not very realistic. Some aspects and emotional states of Willow, yes; but not the complete storyline.

I think writers didn't even care to create a coherent representation of magic, so, there are many inconsistencies on the concept of "magic" in the show and the storylines.

Also, the symbolic representation of "light and dark" in these fictions is very problematic and not realistic, for example:
-Evil Willow: Dark hair?
-"Divine" Willow, after the "Slayers spell": White hair?
The representations of the show based on contrapositions of black/white (Willow), chaste/sexual etc (Buffy-Spike in seasons 6-7) related to good/evil is very simplistic and not realistic. It's pretty much based on biases, stereotypes, tropes or myths, religions etc.

The idea that "dark or darkness" is necessarily linked to "evilness" is a human bias conceptualized, probably, by the fact that "primate humans" were afraid of night (because of dangers, predators, no sight etc) so, they developed societies, cultures, myths and religions based on the bullshit that night, dark and darkness etc. are necessarily related to evilness. Realistically, it isn't so.

Black, darkness, night etc are natural states or phenomenons, they aren't related to a human moral connotation (from a scientific and realistic point of view).

In reality, these biases were also related to the prejudices that "black people" are inferior to "white people" since they are "black" or that feminine is related to evilness or the devil (compared to "masculine" related to light and "God").
 
It was up until Wrecked then they turned it into a ridiculous drug metaphor.
Before then it was her own insecurities driving to gain more power and control things including twice mind raping her girlfriend. Sadly that was all dropped and ignored
 
Btvs fan said:
It was up until Wrecked then they turned it into a ridiculous drug metaphor.
Before then it was her own insecurities driving to gain more power and control things including twice mind raping her girlfriend. Sadly that was all dropped and ignored
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I mean did the text really show that?

It really seemed to me, based on Willow's established personality that constantly moving onto the next step once you've learned the previous is natural

Obviously she didn't like it when people doubted her, but I just don't feel like it was her motivation

I do think she thought if she gained enough control of magic she could make them stop doubting her but I don't think that was her motivation for learning more.
 
garfan said:
I mean did the text really show that?

It really seemed to me, based on Willow's established personality that constantly moving onto the next step once you've learned the previous is natural

Obviously she didn't like it when people doubted her, but I just don't feel like it was her motivation

I do think she thought if she gained enough control of magic she could make them stop doubting her but I don't think that was her motivation for learning more.
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She was deeply insecure hence the dream in Restless as still being seen as hiw she was in S1.

Her threat to Giles in Flooded and her mind rape of Tara again after being asked not to where instances
 
Btvs fan said:
She was deeply insecure hence the dream in Restless as still being seen as hiw she was in S1.

Her threat to Giles in Flooded and her mind rape of Tara again after being asked not to where instances
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I mean I understand her being insecure. I know she is. But if anything that feels like a... de-motivational to her? Giving in to her insecurity would push her to stop because like it wouldn't matter? It wouldn't change her and she wouldn't be good enough

But she does anyway because that's what you do

It's sort of like if Buffy just accepted her destiny and didn't fight to survive

And the threat to Giles. God, I just felt like he deserved that. He had no right to talk to WIllow like that.

Yeah, it was wrong to mess with Tara's mind. But at the same time, I just didn't buy Tara's concerns. And WIllow's problems didn't exactly go the way Tara acted like they were going to
 
One of the themes of season 6 is when nerds get corrupted by power, and use it to vent their rage against society. I would say that's very much accurate.

I would say the reason for that, nerds can get power without the consent of the governed, whereas jocks cannot.
 
garfan said:
I hate that s much. Oh, she's resorting to use a tool to fix a problem. How very dark. Actually how very human

There should be no difference between the magic used for her revenge run and the magic used to fix Tara's brain and that's used in the final battle with Glory and it is ridiculous that there is
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When you're manipulating someone without their consent, that's pretty dark. Tried to do a love spell on Xander, tried to do a spell on Oz, did a spell on Tara.
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Anyanka Bunny Slayer said:
Well, we've all been there. Or is it just me? 😋
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I find myself allergic to the sun and garlic at times.
Wait a minute....
 
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