I learned that nugget of information here at the forum! (most likely from you first stating it to me!). Having him as a full-time villain there may not have worked though, because how many times is Spike going to go after Angel and lose?
Reluctant ally would've served him best. Allows him to hang around. Bonus being he'd draw audiences over to AtS, and if BTVS hadn't changed networks, he could bounce between the two shows.
Perhaps there was pressure not to kill off any character who might be reused? But that left them in a terrible place, with three vampires who should all have been staked all getting away scot free.
Perhaps there was pressure not to kill off any character who might be reused? But that left them in a terrible place, with three vampires who should all have been staked all getting away scot free.
The most likely explanation, but it comes off looking pretty poor.
I mean, Buffy doesn't even look for them? A scene when Spike is following Buffy home and yammering on about how they have "something", she could've said something like, "Thanks to you, I lost Harmony and Dru" which could've filled in the blank.
The most likely explanation, but it comes off looking pretty poor.
I mean, Buffy doesn't even look for them? A scene when Spike is following Buffy home and yammering on about how they have "something", she could've said something like, "Thanks to you, I lost Harmony and Dru" which could've filled in the blank.
Instead, her, completely underwhelming, reaction is to bar Spike from her house. It's revealed he's been feeding again, has a stalker shrine, kidnapped her, chained her up and abused her, and her reaction is to say "You can't come in now."? She has the chance to do what almost no other woman can in that situation, and it's even her job.
Instead, her, completely underwhelming, reaction is to bar Spike from her house. It's revealed he's been feeding again, has a stalker shrine, kidnapped her, chained her up and abused her, and her reaction is to say "You can't come in now."? She has the chance to do what almost no other woman can in that situation, and it's even her job.
It reads badly, doesn't it? And then we get Spike's sad face when the door closes on him, and we're supposed to sympathise with him? Yeah, I don't think so.
She even says, "I want you off this planet", doesn't she? Well erm....grab yourself a stake, and get staking!
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@NotASlayer - and instead tried to use it on Principal Wood...
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NotASlayerOr she still has that rocket launcher lying around...
Personally I watched when they both aired and could not wait to watch Angel every week as it aired. I could not imagine not watching Angel when being a fan of Buffy!
thrasherpixPerhaps worth noting that I didn't have my own TV when it aired, and did not watch it until after it was over on dvd. It's likely if I watched it on TV that I'd have watched both.
Plus, Angels series has A LOT more content of some of the best villains from BtVS (Spike, Faith, Darla, Drusilla, Harmony) and of course amazing new characters like Fred, Gunn, Lorne & Lilah! Angel has a lot of interesting themes along with great episodes and arcs throughout the seasons!
All this and then some! The show ends on such a high note for me, with 4 and 5 being my absolute favorite seasons, it went out at its peak. Never had a chance to get bad.
I also loved how they portrayed everything regarding the plot. It ended up being a much better show than I initially anticipated.
All this and then some! The show ends on such a high note for me, with 4 and 5 being my absolute favorite seasons, it went out at its peak. Never had a chance to get bad.
Sad, but maybe a blessing in disguise? They might have gone off the rails with another season. The only low point of the series for me is season three, but luckily most of what I don't like about it is retconed in season four anyways so it all works out.
All this and then some! The show ends on such a high note for me, with 4 and 5 being my absolute favorite seasons, it went out at its peak. Never had a chance to get bad.
Now, for me, season four is my least favourite. I don't hate it like many do, but I don't like a lot of the choices made. Angelus ended up being portrayed like an idiot, some of the choices they made for Cordelia I don't like, and I really don't like Cordelia/Connor, even knowing after the fact that Cordelia was actually Jasmine. It all just feels unfocused. It probably doesn't help that Angel S4 contains the only important episode of Buffy S7.
Season five... I like, but it feels like a different show. I can't shake the feeling that AI has sold out by this point.
Why do I prefer Buffy to Angel, I'm sorry but I prefer blondes.
As for Spike and Angel, I really liked their chats if chatting was the right word IE the Caveman v the Astronaut caper!
That just would not have had the same impact if it were Giles v Xander.
Now, for me, season four is my least favourite. I don't hate it like many do, but I don't like a lot of the choices made. Angelus ended up being portrayed like an idiot, some of the choices they made for Cordelia I don't like, and I really don't like Cordelia/Connor, even knowing after the fact that Cordelia was actually Jasmine. It all just feels unfocused. It probably doesn't help that Angel S4 contains the only important episode of Buffy S7.
Season five... I like, but it feels like a different show. I can't shake the feeling that AI has sold out by this point.
Im similar. Some of the writing shows clearly they didn't have a plan. Like the scene where Cordelia slept with Connor and no one around her is horrified at what she has done "og my god" like wtf that's meant to be her whole plan ...
You can tell the writers were making it up as they went along. Don't get me started on her attempt to stab Willow, like what did she think the others would do ???
I like the Beast Arc which is fun enough and Angelus in the Cage is fine but outside the cage he's an idiot.
Though at the same time Faith is great.
The Jasmine arc I found boring plus Gwen really wasn't that impressive as a character.
NotASlayerYes; one problem for both Angelus and the Beast was when Angelus was let out of the cage and met the Beast. That did no favours to either.
As for Spike and Angel, I really liked their chats if chatting was the right word IE the Caveman v the Astronaut caper!
That just would not have had the same impact if it were Giles v Xander.
Given that Spike has chemistry with everything, including a mannequin, I think you could substitute Angel with, well, pretty much any male character and got the same effect. Especially Spike and Giles.
hoponlilmamaWonder if he ever apologised to that poor mannequin for hitting her over the head with a box of chocolates. Also, what a waste of chocolate.
Im similar. Some of the writing shows clearly they didn't have a plan. Like the scene where Cordelia slept with Connor and no one around her is horrified at what she has done "og my god" like wtf that's meant to be her whole plan ...
You can tell the writers were making it up as they went along. Don't get me started on her attempt to stab Willow, like what did she think the others would do ???
I like the Beast Arc which is fun enough and Angelus in the Cage is fine but outside the cage he's an idiot.
Though at the same time Faith is great.
The Jasmine arc I found boring plus Gwen really wasn't that impressive as a character.
Please do correct me if I'm wrong here - as I understand it, Cordelia was supposed to have a different arc in s4, but they changed it because of her pregnancy?
S4 got repetitive, cheesy, had the ick all over it with the Connor/Cordy thing, Angelus was more of a moustache-twirling villain, and they lost the heart of what the series was about. It's got some good elements to it - my favourite being the mini-arc with Faith.
@hoponlilmama Somehow I doubt he apologised! But I think he did still give the chocolates away, just slightly more battered than they were supposed to be...
Technically not wasting them I guess!
hoponlilmamaAh, you're right! Wondered how they looked afterwards..
Please do correct me if I'm wrong here - as I understand it, Cordelia was supposed to have a different arc in s4, but they changed it because of her pregnancy?
S4 got repetitive, cheesy, had the ick all over it with the Connor/Cordy thing, Angelus was more of a moustache-twirling villain, and they lost the heart of what the series was about. It's got some good elements to it - my favourite being the mini-arc with Faith.
The full rundown of the original plans for S4 included:
1) Originally, Cordy would have gradually evolved into a higher being and turned into a benevolent spiritual/godly force. For reasons not stated, she would have ended up turning against Angel, and there would have been a swordfight between the two leading to Angel having to kill Cordelia, echoing Buffy killing him in 'Becoming'. However, because of Charisma's real-life pregnancy and the tension with the production team, they rewrote the story and had Cordelia be the vessel for Jasmine, taking Cordy's agency away from her for the most part. 2) The Big Bad of the season was not supposed to be Jasmine. She was supposed to be a stepping stone toward bigger mythological evil forces, possibly other PTBs (including Cordelia) and the Senior Partners. This larger scale battle was reduced to the final stretch of episodes we got where Jasmine tried to bring 'peace' to the world. Instead of Jasmine being an intermediary villain, she became central to the plot. 3) Cangel was supposed to be explored a lot more in S4. Unfortunately, because Cordelia was possessed early on in the season, they only hinted at Cangel aside from that illusion in 'Awakening'. 4) Connor's role was meant to be redemptive, with him more rapidly finding his place among Angel Investigations. As a result of the changes to Cordelia and Jasmine's storyline, Connor had to become a much more unstable character and the writers had to wipe out his memory in the finale to reset the clock. 5) Eliza Dushku was asked to return for a larger arc but declined. She does have a decently important role, but originally she was supposed to have a more central role in the season. 6) Wesley's estrangement from the group after S3 was to build toward a deeper conflict and a possible sacrificial arc, but this was altered to fit around the Jasmine/Cordy storyline.
These points have been confirmed or strongly suggested by Tim Minear and David Greenwalt in the past.
As for your criticism of S4, LilMama, I majorly disagree. The season was exciting, tense, atmospheric, and had so many awesome moments. Is it perfect? No. The original plans would have meant an even better S4, imo. But what we got was still great television. 😃
The full rundown of the original plans for S4 included:
1) Originally, Cordy would have gradually evolved into a higher being and turned into a benevolent spiritual/godly force. For reasons not stated, she would have ended up turning against Angel, and there would have been a swordfight between the two leading to Angel having to kill Cordelia, echoing Buffy killing him in 'Becoming'. However, because of Charisma's real-life pregnancy and the tension with the production team, they rewrote the story and had Cordelia be the vessel for Jasmine, taking Cordy's agency away from her for the most part. 2) The Big Bad of the season was not supposed to be Jasmine. She was supposed to be a stepping stone toward bigger mythological evil forces, possibly other PTBs (including Cordelia) and the Senior Partners. This larger scale battle was reduced to the final stretch of episodes we got where Jasmine tried to bring 'peace' to the world. Instead of Jasmine being an intermediary villain, she became central to the plot. 3) Cangel was supposed to be explored a lot more in S4. Unfortunately, because Cordelia was possessed early on in the season, they only hinted at Cangel aside from that illusion in 'Awakening'. 4) Connor's role was meant to be redemptive, with him more rapidly finding his place among Angel Investigations. As a result of the changes to Cordelia and Jasmine's storyline, Connor had to become a much more unstable character and the writers had to wipe out his memory in the finale to reset the clock. 5) Eliza Dushku was asked to return for a larger arc but declined. She does have a decently important role, but originally she was supposed to have a more central role in the season. 6) Wesley's estrangement from the group after S3 was to build toward a deeper conflict and a possible sacrificial arc, but this was altered to fit around the Jasmine/Cordy storyline.
These points have been confirmed or strongly suggested by Tim Minear and David Greenwalt in the past.
As for your criticism of S4, LilMama, I majorly disagree. The season was exciting, tense, atmospheric, and had so many awesome moments. Is it perfect? No. The original plans would have meant an even better S4, imo. But what we got was still great television. 😃
Vincent Karthiser said that many of the crew weren't really trying as they thought the show was going to be cancelled so just went through the motions.
It's true that it only got renewed late in the day due to bringing Spike over and changing the tone of the show.
He alao admitted and said he gave up as he had ideas for his character which were ignored and he kept doing the same scene over and over and he was bored (compared to Mad Men which he loved) with it
The full rundown of the original plans for S4 included:
1) Originally, Cordy would have gradually evolved into a higher being and turned into a benevolent spiritual/godly force. For reasons not stated, she would have ended up turning against Angel, and there would have been a swordfight between the two leading to Angel having to kill Cordelia, echoing Buffy killing him in 'Becoming'. However, because of Charisma's real-life pregnancy and the tension with the production team, they rewrote the story and had Cordelia be the vessel for Jasmine, taking Cordy's agency away from her for the most part. 2) The Big Bad of the season was not supposed to be Jasmine. She was supposed to be a stepping stone toward bigger mythological evil forces, possibly other PTBs (including Cordelia) and the Senior Partners. This larger scale battle was reduced to the final stretch of episodes we got where Jasmine tried to bring 'peace' to the world. Instead of Jasmine being an intermediary villain, she became central to the plot. 3) Cangel was supposed to be explored a lot more in S4. Unfortunately, because Cordelia was possessed early on in the season, they only hinted at Cangel aside from that illusion in 'Awakening'. 4) Connor's role was meant to be redemptive, with him more rapidly finding his place among Angel Investigations. As a result of the changes to Cordelia and Jasmine's storyline, Connor had to become a much more unstable character and the writers had to wipe out his memory in the finale to reset the clock. 5) Eliza Dushku was asked to return for a larger arc but declined. She does have a decently important role, but originally she was supposed to have a more central role in the season. 6) Wesley's estrangement from the group after S3 was to build toward a deeper conflict and a possible sacrificial arc, but this was altered to fit around the Jasmine/Cordy storyline.
These points have been confirmed or strongly suggested by Tim Minear and David Greenwalt in the past.
Much appreciated, Tome!
As I understand it, CC's arc was supposed to be more physical, but obviously had to be altered due to the pregnancy - I think a stunt double could've taken care of that problem, or some other kind of workaround to keep the original ideas they had in place.
As for your criticism of S4, LilMama, I majorly disagree. The season was exciting, tense, atmospheric, and had so many awesome moments. Is it perfect? No. The original plans would have meant an even better S4, imo. But what we got was still great television. 😃
Fair. And if you have a lot of love for the season, that's great! 😊
But there's a reason why s4 is most often mentioned as least favourite and ranked as the lowest. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate it, but I think the Jasmine arc was a bit 'meh' and it's difficult to get past Connor being so angry and annoying all the time. And there's definitely a bunch to enjoy too. I try and focus on the positives, but sometimes it's quite difficult. 🤣
Like speaking personally, I despise the whole Pylea stuff in Angel. Buffy never really strays too far from reality (and when it does it REALLY does, Mantis Woman) but Angel sort of delights in being absurd and doing things like time travel or realm crossing. I can see why people would look at that and say ehhhh I’m good
Angelus ended up being portrayed like an idiot, some of the choices they made for Cordelia I don't like, and I really don't like Cordelia/Connor, even knowing after the fact that Cordelia was actually Jasmine. It all just feels unfocused.
All totally valid reasons for not liking the season, and I can definitely understand why some people do not like it. I think because I have less of an issue with these things, I am able to enjoy the season.
I agree about Angelus, but he was hilarious when he was in the cage, and letting him out lead to some great Faith moments.
Im definitely not a fan of the Connor/Cordelia parts either, but I dont think it bothers me as much as it bothers others.
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