Weak Buffy - Seeing Red.

[Nikita]

Why was Buffy so weak in Seeing Red when Spike tried to rape her (disagree or not, that is what happened)?

I think it was because for once, she was actually being hurt by a human urge, she was being raped, not attacked by a vampire (well...), but she was still being hurt by something that was human and not supernatural at the time, she was reverting to what she is, which is a human.

Disagree? Agree? Explain why!

 

[Lyri]

I would agree with that, yeah.

For the first time in a long time, Buffy was reduced to what she truly was at heart - a woman.

We can't say for sure what would have happened if Buffy had been ONLY a woman, and we've argued this point many, many, MANY times, so I'm gonna stay away from that, but I think it's true to say that for the first time, Buffy wasn't facing off against something demonic, something that, as the Slayer, she was built, created to fight. She was in a truly human situation, even if it was with a vampire, and for a moment she got lost, she forgot who she was and she panicked.

 

[zobothehobo]

Wasn't she already hurt by a fight she had earlier? She was drawing herself a bath because of the previous fight and I believe Spike even commented on it and said something like "You hurt? You're not moving so well." I'd imagine being hurt and obviously in pain and moving slow would detract from her defenses...

 

[Lyri]

But Buffy proved many times over the years that she was able to push past the hurt to get the job done.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I think more than anything else it was shock. I have been in major high-speed accidents, well, dent as only one. And you just sit there paralyzed by thoughts running through your head. I would image it would be a similar thing. That it was more 'i cant believe this is happening' than actually being able to do anything about it.

 

[white avenger]

I don't think that Buffy's back injury was enough to slow her down much. More likely, it was the emotional shock that so often accompanies an attack of that kind, coupled with her surroundings. Almost certainly, she had never experienced any sort of attack like that, and Spike was close enough to her equal in strength that he was able to overwhelm her. That. coupled with her surroundings, the bathroom, the most intimate and private place in the house, plus the fact that she was practically naked, while Spike was fully dressed, combined to put her into a state of as near helplessness and sheer panic as Buffy had ever known.

 

[Tillow4ever]

I think it was a mixture of things. I think she was hurt. I think yes, it's because she wasn't being attacked by some demonic being that she didn't know from Adam, but it was Spike, and even though she could never admitt it maybe even to herself, but I think that she trusted Spike. Maybe not completely, but she trusted him not to go to far, and expected him to stop without having to use too much force... I don't know, I just think she was vulnerable for many reasons.

 

[fly on the wall]

I don't think that Buffy's back injury was enough to slow her down much. More likely, it was the emotional shock that so often accompanies an attack of that kind, coupled with her surroundings. Almost certainly, she had never experienced any sort of attack like that, and Spike was close enough to her equal in strength that he was able to overwhelm her. That. coupled with her surroundings, the bathroom, the most intimate and private place in the house, plus the fact that she was practically naked, while Spike was fully dressed, combined to put her into a state of as near helplessness and sheer panic as Buffy had ever known.

I agree with this. 🙂

 

[LadyLavinia]

Is Buffy basically stronger than Spike or Angel? Is that why she came so dangerously close to raping Spike in "Gone"?

 

[Tome]

For me it was out of character. But if I was looking for an explanation, I'd go with WA's point of view on it.

 

[AustCF]

Well, there were different things going on in that scene that would cause the "weakness" (she did eventually push him off). First, she was already hurt, and it seemed like she was hurt more than usual by her facial expression (if i remember correctly, because it's been some time since i have seen the episode), and how she was walking, and drawing herself a bath to soak in and calm the pain. Second, she has emotions for Spike, and as a woman caring for another, she was probably hoping he would just get off of her before she had to resort to throwing or pushing him off of her the way she ultimately had to do. Third, the scene works out better the way they did it. It shows a "human" side of Buffy.

 

[Gotham]

A combination of a genuine injury and the shock of Spike going that far is what did it for me. I think Buffy was paralysed by the fact that for the first time in a long time, she saw what the monster within Spike was capable of.

 

[sylvanscribe]

Bad writing for the sake of an attempted rape scene?

Seriously, I can't use these mental gymnastics, so common among fans, of trying to find in-story explanations (no matter how flimsy) to justify plot contrivances.

 

[TimeParadox]

There are a lot of ways to interpret this situation, and there are a lot of viable reasons for the way Buffy reacted to the situation.

First of all, she had been sleeping with Spike, and even though a part of her knew it was wrong, and knew Spike was capable of this, she didn't want to believe it. She wanted to believe he actually loved her. She defended him when he made mistakes to the rest of the scoobies, and they were even friends. Against her friends' advice, Buffy trusted him, because she wanted to believe that he was good.

I think the shock of someone you like, someone you trust, and someone you have been willingly sleeping with, and enjoying it, doing something like that to you, that must be horrifying. In fact, it can be argued that because of her disconnection with the scoobies during the season, Spike was Buffy's best friend. I mean can any of you imagine a best friend, someone you spent tons of time with, and someone you're sleeping with, doing something like this to you? I know for me, that would be one of the most horrible things I can imagine.

That high amount of shock and emotional trauma can be highly physically taxing.

Also, she may not have wanted to use a high amount of force initially, because she was hoping that he, or even trusting that he would stop if she begged hard enough, making it less betraying and horrifying that a friend would do this. Spike made it sound like he thought she wanted this, at a primal level, and Buffy may have been hoping that by letting him know how hurt this would make her, he would realize, and he would stop. Because that would be way easier to handle emotionally that the truth of the situation.

I think if Spike had been someone she'd never met, but with the rest of the circumstances the same, she would have fought him off in a heartbeat.

Buffy has never, in the entire show displayed this type of weakness and horror in a battle. So she obviously did not see this as a battle.

It took a while to recover from the shock, realize that she had been wrong about Spike, and accept the situation for what it was. That is when she kicked him, and he seemed to be knocked back fairly easily.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I agree with pretty much everyone's opinion above, except that it was bad writing. A lot of things made her panic and made her unable to fight as well as she usually would when strangers who wanted to kill her attacked.

She was in pain and shock, and because it was someone she trusted her fighting instinst didn't kick in, and because he was out to rape her, not kill her(as situation she was used to handle), she panicked, etc etc.

If Angel had done this to her, she would have reacted the same way. If Angelus had tried to (and if she was aware that it was Angelus before he attacked) she would have been more able to fight, because it wouldn't be such a big suprise and done my someone she doesn't trust.

And as said above, that he was someone she trusted meant that she held back. She hoped he would have stopped. I imagine, that if a stranger would have tried raping her, a complete stranger, she would be more able to handle it, since women today walk around, being aware that rape can happen. That anyone can be a rapist. It might not be something we think about all the time, but it's in the back of our head. We see people as potential enemies. With people we know, it's different. We believe in them, we want to make excuses for them. I imagine it's the same for famous people, or for people known to do good. We trust them in a similar way as well, because they're expected not to hurt you like that. If a guy in a bar grabs you, you react strongly. If a priest touched you, there's the WTF moment. Probably denial.

Wow, I didn't mean to write that much, since most things have already been said.

I'm glad to see that so many people seem to get (assuming we're right) how a person can react in a situation like this, or are willing to discuss how she could have been thinking. No "she didn't act like a victim should" or that kind of crap.

 

[white avenger]

Is Buffy basically stronger than Spike or Angel? Is that why she came so dangerously close to raping Spike in "Gone"?

Buffy is a more powerful fighter that either Angel or Spike, though I think that they come closer to being her equal than any other vampire who she has ever faced. But that doesn't necessarily mean that she could lift more dead weight than either of them. Strength isn't always the deciding factor in a fight. Luke was stronger than Buffy, as were Glory and Caleb. Buffy managed to beat all of them, eventually, by relying on her brains rather than her biceps.

Of course, having a good team of writers and directors helped considerably in every case as well.

 

[white avenger]

Comments on this post
InsaneMystic agrees: of course, then there's the weirdness of Olaf's Hammer... with Buffy shown as easily at least 3 times as dead-weight-strong as Spike. meh.

Yes, but there's also the image of Superman trying to pick up Thor's hammer in the original JLA/Avengers crossover, and failing. It might be something mystic rather than a case of sheer physical strength.

Bottom line, though, is that, since there was never any kind of official statement as to whether Slayers are actually stronger than all demons and vampires, it's anybody's guess, with valid arguments on both sides,

 

[LadyLavinia]

Why is Spike's attempted rape of Buffy in "Seeing Red" discussed more often than Buffy's attempted assault of Spike in "Gone", Willow's use of magic to rape Tara, Faith's attempted rape of Xander and Xander's attempted rape of Buffy in S1? Why?

 

[Taake]

Why is Spike's attempted rape of Buffy in "Seeing Red" discussed more often than Buffy's attempted assault of Spike in "Gone", Willow's use of magic to rape Tara, Faith's attempted rape of Xander and Xander's attempted rape of Buffy in S1? Why?

I would suppose because the scene itself is so rough and naked some how. It's a bit too 'real'.

Faith's attempt is put to a stop rather quickly (though it is really horrible when you watch it, I'm always shocked all anew even if I know it's coming) which is why I suppose that one tends to over-look it.

Willow's use of magic against Tara is truly awful and I think it's a mixture of the unreality of it (well who's gonna do magic to alter you in real life?) and the discomfort of seeing Willow actually taking that step that makes most repress the severity of her actions. It's just so wrong.

And as for Spike in "Gone" I guess it's the same as Darla having her way with sleeping Angel.
A. It's taken less seriously because he is a man (unfair yes) and
B. He goes along with it eventually.

Does it make it right that the attempted rape scene is so very focused on? Not really but I think it is because most viewers were truly shocked by it. It's too hard to get out of your mind to just let go of.

Either way, that's my two cents.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Why is Spike's attempted rape of Buffy in "Seeing Red" discussed more often than Buffy's attempted assault of Spike in "Gone", Willow's use of magic to rape Tara, Faith's attempted rape of Xander and Xander's attempted rape of Buffy in S1? Why?

While I do think all of those incidents deserves to be discussed, I understand why this one is more discussed. It's just more raw and more likely to stick with people. I'm not saying it's the way it should be, but I'm also not saying it shouldn't.

The other events just didn't feel as harsh and not as close to home. In The Pack, Xander was possessed. It was a fake Xander, so to speak. It was temporary and people could move on from that fairly quickly. We didn't get to know hyena Xander, like we did Spike, simple as that. It was a desease and it was cured. Also, Buffy was didn't panic at that rape attempt. I don't like how it was dealt with on the show, specially Xander's "memory-loss", but it wasn't raw.

Faith hurting Xander; I think there's a bit of that old sexism in the works, that women hurting men isn't seen as as bad (which is should) and that she was painted as a victim the entire season and the one after that. Poor twisted girl-syndrom. Guys don't get that.

In Gone, one can see a certain comedy element to it and it ends "happily", so we don't take it seriously. It's just another of those games they play, and many probably see it as such. I also think Spike isn't seen as victim, probably because he doesn't consider himself that way. He used to torture Drusilla to show her he loved her, and I imagine a little sexual assualt makes him happy. I think the audience knows that, and also that Buffy did. She expected him to like it in the end, and the audience got that, so we don't think much of it. Besides, there's always the fact that Spike's a massmurderer. I don't know about you guys, but it helps removing any guilt I felt. And, oh, sexism. Dear old sexism. If it had been done to Buffy, people might have been more angry, specially if she had been perfectly okay with it. We saw Spike "corrupt" Buffy during season 6 and it was seen as bad, and even though part of that had to do with that she was innocent and he was evil, it also had to do with that he was a man and she a woman. Women corrupting and assualting men isn't taken as seriously, instead we're more ready to yell "Rape!" if it would be a woman forced up against at wall. It should be taken as serious, but it isn't. So, why people don't take this seriously, compared to the AR; Spike liked it, Buffy didn't mean to hurt him just seduce him, Spike's evil and a man. And most importantly; there can be a fine line between sexal assualt and "flirting". For me, basically, it boils down to on how the victim takes it. In this case, I won't cry "Rape!"

The mind violation gets pretty much attention in my experience. But once again, there's no level on panic, so it's not as "strong" as the AR. There's disgust and betrayal, but we don't see panic, tears, screaming the way we do in Seeing Red. It's just shown differently.

Btw, other scenes that deserves to be dicussed more than they are; Darla assaulting Angel in his sleep, Buffy being thralled by Dracula, Giles being attacked/thralled by Dracula's brides, Xander & Dracula's whatever in Season 5 & 8 and Faith sleeping with Riley(which I find very rape-like, since there was no true consent).