Weak Buffy - Seeing Red.

[TimeParadox]

Why is Spike's attempted rape of Buffy in "Seeing Red" discussed more often than Buffy's attempted assault of Spike in "Gone", Willow's use of magic to rape Tara, Faith's attempted rape of Xander and Xander's attempted rape of Buffy in S1? Why?

None of those other scenes had the victim react so emotionally. We see Buffy's horrified reaction, and we see how badly it affects her afterwords. It's not the events themselves that fan's care about so much, but the way that the events affect the characters. That's why this is talked about so much. There was a strong reaction among the characters. Characters were deeply affected.

In 'gone', Spike doesn't care. In fact, he enjoys it. When Xander is almost raped by Faith, Xander doesn't react in the same emotional way Buffy did, so we care less. (Which I suppose I blame more on weak acting than anything), and it's never brought up again after the fact. When Xander tried to rape Buffy in S1, Buffy is not affected, because she knows he's not himself, and she knew she could fight him off, so she was neither afraid nor emotionally hurt, so we don't really care.

What Willow did to Tara I think was pretty awful though, since Tara did react, but it wasn't quite as strong as what Buffy went through.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Why is Spike's attempted rape of Buffy in "Seeing Red" discussed more often than Buffy's attempted assault of Spike in "Gone", Willow's use of magic to rape Tara, Faith's attempted rape of Xander and Xander's attempted rape of Buffy in S1? Why?

Weighing in on the scene in Gone, I don't view that as an attempted assault. Please don't misunderstand me- it's not because of the reversal of genders (I hate that misconception in rape tropes, that men can't be assaulted as well, etc.), but it's because to me, the negative aspects of Spike and Buffy's sexual relationship at that time are heavily based on dubious consent. Spike touches Buffy without her explicit consent (in the beginning of "Wrecked" and then in "Dead Things", for example), and Buffy does the same to Spike in 'Gone'. But their sexual dynamics always include the additional qualifier that they can stop each other if they really wanted to. Spike even says as much to Buffy in those scenes. ("stop me", etc.) And it's not right or okay at all, (I can't stress that enough) but I DO think it's a very very gray area in their sexual dynamic, and because of that, it's difficult for me to see it as a clear assault. gah, I don't know if I'm explaining this right. :/

I completely agree that Willow's use of magic to rape Tara, Faith's attempted rape of Xander, etc. should be discussed more. I think the biggest problems with those scenes is that it's not canonically acknowledged as rape or assault. 'Seeing Red', however, is practically shoved in our faces. I believe the writers were going for shock value there (notice the lighting, the lack of music, the commercial break right in the middle of Buffy's screaming, etc.) There's also the really problematic misconception that women can't be rapists, but mostly, I think if there was more commentary, canonical or from the writers themselves, on the fact that those scenes are nonconsensual, there'd be more discussion of it in fandom.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Willow's use of magic against Tara is truly awful and I think it's a mixture of the unreality of it (well who's gonna do magic to alter you in real life?) and the discomfort of seeing Willow actually taking that step that makes most repress the severity of her actions. It's just so wrong.

What made it even worse is that after Willow had stripped Tara’s memories, she had sex with her. She had exploited Tara’s loss of the memory of their fight to have sex.

The mind violation gets pretty much attention in my experience. But once again, there's no level on panic, so it's not as "strong" as the AR. There's disgust and betrayal, but we don't see panic, tears, screaming the way we do in Seeing Red. It's just shown differently.

So what? Rape is rape, no matter what.

The other events just didn't feel as harsh and not as close to home. In The Pack, Xander was possessed. It was a fake Xander, so to speak.

That’s BS to me. I might as well compare a possessed Xander to a souless Spike . . . who was “souless” in “Seeing Red”. And that was not a fake Xander to me. That was a Xander, whose inhibitions had been stripped away, due to the possession.

In Gone, one can see a certain comedy element to it and it ends "happily", so we don't take it seriously. It's just another of those games they play, and many probably see it as such. I also think Spike isn't seen as victim, probably because he doesn't consider himself that way. I don't know about you guys, but it helps removing any guilt I felt. And, oh, sexism. Dear old sexism. If it had been done to Buffy, people might have been more angry, specially if she had been perfectly okay with it. We saw Spike "corrupt" Buffy during season 6 and it was seen as bad, and even though part of that had to do with that she was innocent and he was evil, it also had to do with that he was a man and she a woman. Women corrupting and assualting men isn't taken as seriously, instead we're more ready to yell "Rape!" if it would be a woman forced up against at wall.

One, the assault in “Gone” should not have been treated as a comedy element. It was an attempt at sexual assault. What in the hell is funny about that? What is it about this society that thinks it’s funny for a woman to try to sexually assault a man? I found the whole scene rather disgusting. And my disgust was directed toward Buffy for her actions, and David Fury for writing that crap. Both genders are capable of rape. And both genders are capable of being victims. There is nothing funny about it. And what exactly are you trying to say? That due to Spike’s past as a vampiric murderer, it was okay for Buffy to attempt to rape him? Really? That’s sick.

As for what transpired between Buffy and Spike during Season 6, what I saw was Buffy using Spike as a sex toy to deal with her depression. I certainly didn’t see Buffy as some victim of Spike’s corruption. She was the user, not him. He probably saw this as an opportunity to get closer to Buffy. But when he realized that she was basically using him, he probably started to dislike it. It wasn’t until after the relationship was over, when Spike truly understood how much Buffy had used him. Which is why he had a bit of difficulty in forgiving her, until Season 7.

If I didn’t know any better, I would swear that you were taking a great deal of effort to make excuses for the Scoobies. Why? Why in the hell should Spike be condemned, and the Scoobies be excused? Because he represented "the Other" and they were "humans"? Is that it?

 

[wickedtiger86]

I agree with some earlier posts that said that Buffy took so long to react because she didn't want to have to make him stop. She wanted him to stop on his own.

Weird and personal, but I had a boyfriend try something very similar with me and I reacted in much the same way. I did end up hitting him to get him off of me and he realized what he was doing and was horrified by it, much like Spike was.

For that reason the scene has always been very hard for me to watch because they did such an incredibly good job at portraying it. The first time I saw it I actually got a little bit physically ill. And I think that that's why this scene gets so much more attention than others in the show.

It was a bit too realistic. The point was for us to be disturbed and in my case it certainly worked.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I agree with what was said that it's a combination of things that let it happen (or almost happen). I think there is one more reason that I think hasn't been mentioned yet, which is that Buffy, who has just admitted she had feelings for Spike, didn't really want to hurt him. She could hurt him, yet she didn't at first. Only when she saw she had no choice, she gathered all she had, during physical pain, during thinking he would stop by himself, and threw him across the room. I also think that her tears afterwards, weren't only the pain and the emotional shock from the experience, it was also because she was hurt emotionally. Because she did expect him to stop himself and not go that far. She did trust him. And he betrayed that trust.

 

[Enemies]

I think the fact she kicked him off in the end has a bit to do with the rush of adrenaline every human being faces in the fight or flight situation, perhaps this was delayed because she wanted to give spike a 'chance' so to speak to realise what he was doing. However I do believe it was written that way to show that for all her strengths Buffy is still human at the end of the day and situations like this can arise for any kind of person regardless of age, gender or race.

 

[Willow My Love]

I think it's kind of the way that Joyce's death gets more attention than, for example, Jenny's. Yeah, she was Buffy's mom, but they portrayed her death in a very real way. Showed the grieving process perfectly. They didn't do that with any other character.

And now, for my on topic opinion. I'm going to agree that it's Buffy's surprise at the situation for the mot part. I do think that her being injured had a hand in it, but not as badly. The pain has stopped her before. With Adam in the cave, with that vamp in FFL, she's run away from battle because of pain before. This isn't exactly new. I think she trusted Spike to know when it wasn't consentual, and she was in shock at first. That's why she was so weak.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I do believe that Buffy's delayed reaction was partially due to the fact that she'd hoped that Spike would stop. She wanted to believe in him. And though she'd said she didn't trust him, it was clear by her actions that she did, in fact, many times. I think the other reason for her delay was that, quite frankly, their sexual relationship to this point had rarely, (if ever), been about romance and sweet nothings. It was passionate, violent, impetuous, and-- on more occasion than one-- she herself had indeed resisted in the beginning before giving in, (certainly Spike had, on many occasions). I don't think it's too radical an interpretation to assume that perhaps Buffy herself didn't immediately know exactly where the line was between what she'd wanted in the past, and what she wanted today.

Truly, the way Spike forced himself on her in the very beginning of the act was not very different from what she'd done with him in Smashed or Gone. Often, it seems, that's how their sexual encounters were initiated. When Spike began, we knew Buffy was hurt both physically and emotionally; from the fight she'd just had and Spike's hook up with Anya, respectively. So for the first few seconds, anyway, her resistance could have been based upon either, and she herself might not have known what she wanted. It's not until she actually says "stop" and begins to actively resist that it's clear that this time, it's different. It might have taken her that long to realize it, herself.

[MENTION=2555]LadyLavinia[/MENTION], I agree with you.
The fact is, for me, and IMHO-- this subject is as grey as can be. Spike's behavior in SR was inappropriate for sure--I would never argue that. But so was Buffy's, by the same token, more than once during the season. Neither character's actions excuse those of the other, but we have to consider all that is going on, here. In this scene of course, there are no slow-motion shots, and there is no music for Spike to hide behind, as there had been for Buffy in previous encounters. Just fluorescent lighting and "harsh" cinematic reality setting the stage for moral superiority in an environment in which two characters are truly suffering. This scene feels forced and contrived for the sake of the plot. As much as I love the end result, this scene for me is always a cog in the wheel.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I agree with what was said that it's a combination of things that let it happen (or almost happen). I think there is one more reason that I think hasn't been mentioned yet, which is that Buffy, who has just admitted she had feelings for Spike, didn't really want to hurt him. She could hurt him, yet she didn't at first. Only when she saw she had no choice, she gathered all she had, during physical pain, during thinking he would stop by himself, and threw him across the room. I also think that her tears afterwards, weren't only the pain and the emotional shock from the experience, it was also because she was hurt emotionally. Because she did expect him to stop himself and not go that far. She did trust him. And he betrayed that trust.

Spike had betrayed that trust? What about Buffy? Spike had offered her his friendship and in turn, she used him. She used him. Even after that bizarre incident inside his crypt in "Gone", Spike eventually ordered her to get out, when he realized how she was using him. And did Buffy really end the relationship to stop from hurting Spike? Or to ignore how she might feel about him, because she felt ashamed of their relationship? Especially after ex-boyfriend Riley Finn caught them in bed together?

Spike was not a complete innocent in what happened between him and Buffy in S6. But you know what? Neither was Buffy. She was even less of an innocent than he was. But since Spike is a vampire (aka "an Other") and Buffy is the "heroic Slayer", many fans make excuses for her actions and dump all of the blame on Spike.

 

[Konoe]

OK HERE'S THE DILLIO!

Spike did not rape Buffy! I've only seen the scene once and I could clearly remember Spike did not rape Buffy. Again I state this 'cause a lot of you people can't seem to get this through your skull. Spike did NOT RAPE BUFFY!

How is that?

Well here is how it goes.

The definition of Rape is; Rape is forced, unwanted sexual intercourse.

Did force unwanted sexual intercourse happen? NO!

Why? SPIKE PULLED AWAY!

What does that mean? HE SAW THE ERRORS IN HIS WAYS!

So I don't understand where you get this logic that Spike somehow magically raped Buffy since it honestly never did happen.

NOW if you had a somewhat more decent question which would be factual and correct unlike anything that you say that happened like an example would be. "How do you feel about Spikes attempt to rape Buffy" would sound like an educated question instead of jumping the gun and saying that he did rape her.

If Spike raped Buffy do you think he would have had that look on his face? Do you think he would have stopped? NO!

The only reason it seems so...since I'm at a loss for words since I am awestruck with how you people see this, this word will have to substitute it, "Powerful" was because it was Buffy at a weak moment.

Spike isn't the only one at fault as well it was also Buffy's fault for using Spike as a Rag doll or for better and humors words...like the "Harry Potter Nimbus 2000" for whatever she pleased would have had serious draw back.

Spike wasn't just an "Evil Vampire" he was also...well if need be please change this word because all I can think is...He was ****ed up.

Your human life your mother was there for you! Listening to your poems about the girl you liked and she grew old with you always spending time with each other. Soon she becomes sick and is on the verge of dieing while you watch and try to comfort her. You become sired and you yourself turn into a Vumpire, in which you help your dieing mother become a Vumpire as well. You turn her and see that she has become a beautiful Vumpire who then insults every minute that she spent with you and then wants to repay you by shagging your brains out, so you steak her.

Is you don't come out of that a little messed up then I honestly don't know what to tell you...you must be one really messed up individual.

He falls for Buffy a human who also happens to be a Slayer get's used when told how he feels...and it's not like he got used once it was multiple times.

Then If you add the above with the time you spent with Angel(us) you sorta understand it better.

If Spike wanted to rape Buffy he would have no questions asked.

Lastly, This was just to state the FACTS as seen on the SHOW! If you quote me or anything please do have a somewhat logical answer because I will not reply to repeat myself or Reword myself to state my point.