You're not saying that with a straight face are you? Liam was turned by Darla in 1753. He was cursed in 1898. Do you imagine that he kept the same wardrobe for 150 years? Or do you assume that all the clothes Angelus wore over that period were acquired through legal means? Perhaps the second Angel got his soul he got straight out of the ill gotten clothes from his soulless days? If you're subscribing to any of these theories is he a better man than Spike for killing people in an acceptable outfit? Better to kill in the right clothes than not kill in an evil jacket?
Read. My Post.
I said Angel- with a soul. Not Angelus.
Angelus stole clothes? I don't care, he killed people, he was a monster.
Angel, when we saw him when he arrived in America in 'Orpheus' was wearing filthy rags- not the clothes of his victims. He never, as far as I can see, kept any trophies from his glory days as a soulless killer. Spike did. That's the difference.
---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 PM ----------
The flaw in that logic is that these same people who made the choice NOT to kill had just months earlier made the choice TO kill, a lot. What's to stop them from deciding to do it, again? The amount of remorse they felt?
I think you are conflating trustworthiness here, with the level of threat. Spike, Anya, Willow, and Faith ALL feel remorse, and ALL made the decision to stop killing. So in theory they can all be trusted an equal amount not to do it again. Yes Spike was being temporarily controlled by another source but that element could be removed. Then, you've got a house full of reformed killers and we have to take any one of them at their word that they won't kill again. But for better or worse, and without any further information, they are all equally trustworthy--or untrustworthy, depending on how you see it.
Sorry I misspoke--I meant that she was helping the team to control him of course. But anyway the point is that Giles et all know only this about her reformation, nothing else.
I have never seen it this way. Yes, before he regains his soul, the coat is perhaps a trophy. I will absolutely agree with that. But after? Do you remember when Spike decides to put it back on? It's after Buffy tells him that she wants the "old" Spike back; the one who'd tried to kill her back in season 2. She wants a monster to protect them. So he wears it, to remind himself that there's a fight to be won.
To me--and I am aware that this is my own interpretation--the coat takes on a new meaning for Spike at this point. Now he wears it at the current slayer's request, a symbol of his commitment to fighting with her, for her. Once he discovers who Robin is, I very much dislike the idea of wearing it around him, at that point.
But to state that wearing the coat clearly demonstrates a lack of remorse is a bit of a leap to me. It's just as much of an interpretation as my belief that he wears it in order to symbolically move forward--this time with and for a slayer. If we had evidence, namely from soul-having Spike's mouth, that he wore the coat still as a trophy--out of pride--then sure you could say he was "disgusting."
There are episodes devoted to Spike's remorse. There are very many moments crammed into a season that is otherwise chock full of stuff, illustrating this. Certainly there is far more screentime devoted to Spike's remorse in s7 than to Andrew and Anya's. I understand that Anya's is more poignant for you, and that is completely valid. But it doesn't mean that Spike's isn't very much there, too.
---------- Post added at 02:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------
Oh and one more thing to add with regard to Spike and whether or not he feels guilt, remorse, etc:
The trigger only works--the First is only able to control him--because he feels remorse.
In fact, the trigger is actually Spike's remorse, in song form. A memory. His mother.
My point is, at that moment in 'LMPTM' they didn't
know that the trigger could be removed. They tried with something that
Giles had gone to great lengths to find (y'know, trying to be proactive about a problem.) and it
appeared to fail. It caused an episode and then dropped out and that was it.
In fact it was Wood's using the trigger to bring out enraged Spike that caused him to face his anger over what he did to his mother.
Willow was arguable under the influence of Dark Magic when she killed, there is a known link between her behaviour and dark magic, Anya undid all the killing she undertook as a vengeance demon (that we saw- in 'Beneath Me' and 'Selfless') and was willing to sacrifice her own life for it.
These are different circumstances to those they now live under, therefore they are more trustworthy that a man who literally
cannot control himself. or his actions. A man who has killed and turned a dozen or so during blackouts, who has fed off of human blood.
Unless your saying, deep down, that Spike can resist the trigger (like he did with Buffy) but that would mean that Spike, on some level, is responsible for all those deaths and sirings on behalf of the First.
I mean, I don't believe that because it clearly looked like he couldn't control himself, but maybe you think differently, so which is it?
The thing about the coat being a tribute or some nonsense- I might've believed that
if Spike made any mention of thinking that, or indeed if for one moment he showed any remorse for killing either of the slayers, but he doesn't- because apparently;
'that's the way the game is played'.
He said those words, he meant them, I wish people would stop trying to make excuses for his actions in this episode- just call him a heartless jerk, or maybe say that he was taunting Wood and didn't actually believe what he was saying. (I believe he was entirely sincere.) Maybe he was just being a shit to the guy who'd just tried to kill him.
But no, its all,
'He's honouring her.' 🙄
And, no, I don't agree that soulless Spike felt remorse or guilt over what he did to his Mother, he showed rage at somebody he
though he loved lying to him and tearing into him without mercy.
It wasn't remorse, not remotely, vampires don't feel remorse, even for loved ones they've brutally murdered, because they're soulless and evil and by definition have no conscience, they're not capable.
