Were Giles and Robin Wood wrong?

[bespangeled]

[MENTION=8314]Silverspike[/MENTION]

It's not Spike, it's the amulet. The description says someone ensouled, but stronger than human — a Champion - that means Buffy, Faith, Angel, every activated ( or not? ) potential, possibly Willow, Dawn, Anya, Andrew and Giles.



Hate is passion. Enthusiasts hate because they just care so much. When you bitch about hate you ask us to stop being so passionate about the stuff we love.

How about no?

Willow, Dawn, Anya, Andrew and Giles are all human, so that leaves Buffy, Faith, and Angel. Yes, Angel could have stayed instead of skipping out of town and "abandoning the woman he claimed to love." If he left because of Buffy asking him to - then you have to agree it's a far smaller thing that Spike put the coat back on to be what Buffy asked him to be. Faith and Buffy didn't wear it because Spike asked to - and that is the special thing that he brought to the battle.

Yes, hate is a passion - so is love. If I need to hate your character, or you ship, or your OTP then I'm not just passionate, I am channeling a lot of emotional energy from somewhere else. I disagree with a fair amount of your views and I am very passionate about the show. But to hate anyone on the show is going beyond rational, and if affects your ability to argue rationally.

Frankly the two slayers that Spike killed had the ability to fight him off - were trained and designed to fight him off - those were two fair fights. I have far more problem with those who had no ability to survive. Spike was a sociopath - Angel was a psychopath. Both of them left a trail of innocent victims.

And can we lower the Westboro Baptist allusion. The fact that I like Spike does not make me anything other than a Buffy fan - same as the fact you like Angel. In fact, I really like them both! Name calling, questioning the motives, false premises, sloganeering, stereotyping, scapegoating, innuendo and straw-men are all appeals to emotion and not reason. I mean this for all of us - and not one side. Apologies for not saying that first.

 

[thetopher]

And if the circumstances were to return? If someone else Willow loves is murdered, how do we know she won't try to end the world again? If Anya is jilted again, how do we know she won't ask to be turned into a vengeance demon again? In Anya's case, she's actually spent by far the majority of her 1000 years of life as a killer--it is not unreasonable to assume that one day she may choose to become that person again.



Obviously I completely agree that Spike couldn't control himself. I am simply making the argument that one who cannot control himself but can be restrained with chains until the element that is controlling him is removed, (and remember we have no reason to believe it can't be,) is less dangerous--certainly more predictable--than a bunch of former killers who began killing suddenly and reformed almost as quickly, and very recently to boot.

So hey, if Giles wants to take ALL of them out, for the safety of the world or whatever, then fine. That would be solid logic. If could have said, "You know what, we've got an entire house here of former killers and I just don't know when any of them are going to snap again. One is so dangerous that she almost created an apocalypse, one was a demon for 1000 years, one killed his best friend, and one is a newly souled vampire who is temporarily being controlled by another source. Let's just get rid of the lot of them and we'll be safe." While I would have heartily disagreed with his position, at least where logic and consistency are concerned, I couldn't fault his reasoning.



Well here you're combining two separate trains of thought. One is his reasoning for wearing the coat, or lack thereof, and the other is what he said to Wood. The former is unknown to us, and that is my point. I say it's symbolic and doesn't show a lack of remorse, you say it's disgusting. But he DOESN'T tell us which it is so as I said in my previous thread, all we can do is speculate.

The matter of what he said to Wood is indeed separate. The fact that he believes that "that's the way the game is played" in the first place doesn't address the coat. But to the next point:



Honestly, it's a bit of both, the way I see it. Yeah I think it's horrible that he said it. It WAS heartless of him to say it, and I"ll be the first to admit that obviously there are many things that my favorite characters do that I flat out despise. But as you pointed out, he there is an element there of being "a shit to the guy who'd just tried to kill him." Because remember, it's not just that Wood attacked him that was unacceptable to Spike. It's the fact that first he wanted to turn him back into the very think he'd worked so hard to no longer be. That, in fact, was like trying to kill him TWICE.

Again, while I despise the way this scene played out and the way in which Spike acted, I certainly understand why his words contained extra venom at the time, given the above. And while I think it's heartless to defend oneself to the person who's lost his mother, Spike was making the point that he killed the person who would have killed him, and his kind. You know,"Tybalt would kill thee but thou slewest Tybalt, there art thou happy." It's all a miserable mess and of course Spike isn't content or proud about what he did, now that he's ensouled. But in this case, he was defending himself.

For the record, in case anyone thinks I don't mind any of this--I can't watch the scene between Spike and Wood, at all. I find Spike to be despicable in it, though I do understand where the venom comes from, as I mentioned above.



Wait what? Did you think I meant that he was honoring Nikki Wood by wearing the coat? Just checking, cause that's not the case. He isn't honoring anyone, he is--again, just my take-- symbolically indicating that he is ready to fight with Buffy, the new slayer.



Er I think we may have our wires crossed here but I'm referring to the Spike of season 7 feeling remorse--you know, the one with a soul? Yes he absolutely can, and yes there is quite a lot of precedence for that (Angel, remember?) And as I said, that is in fact how the trigger works. The trigger is soul-having Spike's guilt and remorse, in song form.

What circumstance? Anya becoming a vengeace demon again-unlikely, since she almost died trying to stop being a vengeance demon. Willow going on a grief stricken revenge spree? She spends most of the season as a shadow of her former self.
But fine, if we're going to just ignore circumstances like that then Spike has wantonly killed many more people recently, and turned them- he could easily do it again. He has more blood on his hands, why should a soul prevent Spike when it didn't prevent Anya, Willow, Faith or Andrew? If we're going to ignore circumstances then Buffy's killed humans before, so maybe Giles should take her out, y'know just in caser she snaps. 😉

Wait a sec...Giles has killed before, so he'd have to take himself out.

See where than reasoning gets you? its so that if you ignore circumstances, like your doing, you just get Xander, Dawn and a bunch of girls. The world is most definitly doomed. 😛



If Spike wears the coat to honour Buffy, that's pretty loopy logic, and she never actually said 'Put on the coat.' that's Spike's psychological crutch to return to his 'bad self', but whatever, I'm moving slowly away from the coat-thing, I honestly have no more to say.
If you don't have a problem with it, fine. Moving on.

And the trigger...the trigger is rooted in unsoulled Spike's unresolved issues with his Mom, his demonic rage and such.
Y'see this is why is harder to seperate the two Spikes from Angel and Angelus. Spike pre and post-soul blend together partly because of the trigger. (also from the fact that his love for Buffy spans both states.)
The trigger isn't 'magic', it's psychology, that digs deep into Spike's psyche from when he was first turned, that's why he fly's into 'raging vampire' mode- its his primal self, the first thoughts of his newly vampiric image.
It's why Spike has a soft spot for Joyce (even before he was in love with Buffy- see 'Becoming' and 'Lover's Walk') its what turns a quiet, timid poeitc soul into a uber-violent rebel who loves fighting and tortuing peopole with railroad spikes. It goes to the core of who he is, its not as simple as soulled Spike feels guilt- why would that manifest as rage if that were the case?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Willow, Dawn, Anya, Andrew and Giles are all human, so that leaves Buffy, Faith, and Angel. Yes, Angel could have stayed instead of skipping out of town and "abandoning the woman he claimed to love." If he left because of Buffy asking him to - then you have to agree it's a far smaller thing that Spike put the coat back on to be what Buffy asked him to be. Faith and Buffy didn't wear it because Spike asked to - and that is the special thing that he brought to the battle.

But thats not special. Spike gets made out to be unique for that, which he's not. I'm not denying it's great he asked to wear it, I'm not saying it takes anything away from the good he did by wearing it. But making out that spike is special when he's not just isn't true. Spike asking to wear the amulet is no more special than anyone else going into that fight that day, and wearing that amulet wasn't something specific to Spike/

Yes, hate is a passion - so is love. If I need to hate your character, or you ship, or your OTP then I'm not just passionate, I am channeling a lot of emotional energy from somewhere else.

It's not about hating YOUR character, YOUR ship or YOUR otp, it's about not liking a character that a lot of people dont like as a character becasue of who he is and what he's done. No one here "hating" on Spike has been hating on spike, everyone has used evidence from the show to back up their points, yet they are being accused of hating - that is just the opposite of "hating", it's using "hating" as an excuse to get out of actually replying.

 

[bespangeled]

Spike isn't a "big player", Spike doesn't seem to have been a big player in the way that Daral, Angelus and the Master were, he's never had an interest in it, he's never been the Big Bad, he's famously all talk.
He's also never been a big player for good. He has no mission, no higher purpose, good isn't seeking him out. He just follows Buffy or Angel around.

In the episode - not throughout history. Woods tells Faith that the First only appears to big players. Since the First not only appeared to but planted a trigger in Spike he is a big player.

You are incorrect about him not turning again once he tastes Buffy. He is triggered again when the First wants him to kill Andrew.

True - my bad.

You are assuming to know the Firsts plan, what better place is Spike positioned in than in the house were all the potentials are living? Why would he want Spike dead, when he has an active bomb just waiting to go off inside the enemies base???

Why would he appear to Wood as his mother if he does not want Spike dead? Why is he unable or unwilling to trigger Spike after the attack on Andrew? Spike is getting stronger, asking questions, refusing to cooperate (do I have to cite each incident?) - the First wants to cut his losses.

Isn't it far more likely he'd want Robin to go after Spike, creating hostility within Buffys camp. Her potential slayer army sees her defending a serial killer who is under the control of the thing trying to kill them.

You actually contradict yourself here. Why would he want Robing to go after Spike if her potential slayer army sees her defending a serial killer who is under the control of the thing trying to kill them and that is enough? Clearly it is not enough because he does send Robin after Spike.

Her arm stop respecting her - this is what actually happens.
Why would the First think Robin could kill Spike? Robin isn't as good a fighter as Spike?

No idea but probably to sow discord - if Robin and Giles go behing Buffy's back and manage to kill Spike (already a warrior for the Good because he chose to be good) that will bring a whole new level of conflict. It would definitely screw with the entire army of good. And the group turned against Buffy and kicked her out several episodes after LMPTM.

When the leader is the one person in a group it is so bad.


This is exactly what happens! Buffys irrationality leads to her bring oust as leader!

Again, no they dont. They ask her to step down.

So - sorry - you think Buffy is a bad leader and should have been ousted?

I agree. I was trying to be marginally nicer by vagueing it up. So I'll reclarify, there were far more replies from silverspike just automatically defending Spike with no actual factual points and calling the opposing person, with a number of points, a hater.

Sorry - pot meet kettle. Mybe if one side decides to stop the other will follow suit. 🙂

Wait does that mean you've changed your opinion that Spike is great for getting his soul whereas Angel is cursed with his? That would mean pre-soul Spike going to get a soul has NO meaning for post soul Spike.
It should also mean, no Spike fan should ever using a good thing Spike does pre soul as a valid point.

No fan is more in love with a presoul/post soul double standard like a Spike fan.[/QUOTE]

Well. there is the factor of chipped Spike. There he was unique, and I think that had a lot of influences on his choices over those years before he got his soul. Just like souled Angel spent 100 years doing whatever (eating fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches at Elvis wedding!), and eventually ended up in alleys eating rats. He didn't even think of helping others until he was shown Buffy. Buffy is the light to both of them by the end - no matter what happens to her she chooses to do good. She is the polar opposite of evil.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

What circumstance? Anya becoming a vengeace demon again-unlikely, since she almost died trying to stop being a vengeance demon. Willow going on a grief stricken revenge spree? She spends most of the season as a shadow of her former self.
But fine, if we're going to just ignore circumstances like that then Spike has wantonly killed many more people recently, and turned them- he could easily do it again. He has more blood on his hands, why should a soul prevent Spike when it didn't prevent Anya, Willow, Faith or Andrew? If we're going to ignore circumstances then Buffy's killed humans before, so maybe Giles should take her out, y'know just in caser she snaps. 😉

Wait a sec...Giles has killed before, so he'd have to take himself out.

Seems like you agree that it's crazy for Giles to want to have someone killed simply because they've killed before. So again, either he takes out all of the killers in the house, or none of them--certainly not Spike who, again, is only temporarily being controlled and who--now that we KNOW he is--is far more predicable than the other killers who started and ended almost on a whim.

If Spike wears the coat to honour Buffy, that's pretty loopy logic

This is the last I'll say on this, since I think you aren't reading my posts carefully. He doesn't wear it to honor anyone. It's symbolic. You can read my last thread for more of an explanation of my take on it.

And the trigger...the trigger is rooted in unsoulled Spike's unresolved issues with his Mom, his demonic rage and such.
Y'see this is why is harder to seperate the two Spikes from Angel and Angelus. Spike pre and post-soul blend together partly because of the trigger. (also from the fact that his love for Buffy spans both states.)
The trigger isn't 'magic', it's psychology, that digs deep into Spike's psyche from when he was first turned, that's why he fly's into 'raging vampire' mode- its his primal self, the first thoughts of his newly vampiric image.
It's why Spike has a soft spot for Joyce (even before he was in love with Buffy- see 'Becoming' and 'Lover's Walk') its what turns a quiet, timid poeitc soul into a uber-violent rebel who loves fighting and tortuing peopole with railroad spikes. It goes to the core of who he is, its not as simple as soulled Spike feels guilt- why would that manifest as rage if that were the case?

We saw in Amends that the First operates by appealing to the guilty, souled vampire--getting him to believe that he truly is nothing but a monster and encouraging him to kill again, based on that logic. In Spike's case, for whatever reason, it is also able to control his physical actions more acutely, probably because it's formed a more precise trigger than it ever could with Angel. Clearly, the trigger is Early One Morning because Spike's deepest remorse is over the fact that he killed his mother.

Why the rage? Because that's how the First has chosen Spike's guilt to manifest itself. Upon hearing it, he simply becomes a roaring monster. As you said, it's his primal self.

 

[white avenger]

Name a double standard not backed up within the story I've ever used?

Did I accuse you of using double standards where Spike and Angel are concerned? Did I mention any Angel fan by name? Why are you so defensive about a mere general comment?

I think maybe you're getting way too invested in this topic. Why don't you try backing off for awhile, have a cool drink, read the newspaper, maybe go out somewhere with your fr... Scratch that. Go to a nice, calm Walt Disney movie. I highly recommend "Sleeping Beauty," or maybe "The Jungle Book." Phil Harris as the voice of Balu is truly priceless. It'll work wonders for your blood pressure.

Come back refreshed, calm, with a smile on your face and a song in your heart.

Try it. You'll like it.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

Seige - Wood lost his right to revenge when he signed on to follow Buffy against the First Evil. Yes, he had some dramatic reasons to take action - but we are dealing with Evil and Good.

I agree to an extent that his timing was lousy, but not completely. If Spike wasn't an immediate danger and Buffy needed/trusted him, Wood would have been completely in the wrong to push his vendetta at the absolute worst time. The First Evil and the Apocalypse would obviously have to take precedence and everything else would wait till after.

But Spike was an incredibly dangerous potential threat, and Buffy's judgment was clouded to it. If things had continued the way she wanted, the FE would have remembered* Spike's trigger and killed everyone in the house. Buffy's presence didn't stop him from taking a chunk out of Andrew's neck and injuring Dawn, who knows how much worse it could have gotten. She didn't necessarily have to kill Spike (who was more innocent in this instance than Anya and Willow were in their's) but she sure as hell should have thought of a better containment strategy. Feral Angel warranted being tied up with chains in a mansion outside of town, while Oz was constantly watched by at least one of the Scoobies and a tranq gun. Sure, neither one of those worked 100% of the time, but tying up Spike to a weak ass chair with ropes is laughably incompetent.

If Wood ever comes across Spike again, I think he's perfectly within his rights to give it another go. I don't think he will ever really "lost the right to it." Similarly, Spike has a right to defend himself, but he needs to accept he has some bad karma coming his way.

*Or maybe it wouldn't. God, the FE just sucks so damn much.

 

[bespangeled]

Also, there is no evidence that Angelus had sex with Drusilla in season Two. On the contrary, in another forum I read that on the DVD there is a comment by Marti Noxon where she says exactly the opposite.

Really?! Why not?

And as a guest, if there's anything I can do for
you"¦ any"¦ responsibility I can assume while
you spin your wheels"¦
(purposeful leer toward Dru)
"¦anything I'm not already doing, that is"¦

May not be evidence but it is a strong implication. I'm bewildered as to why this is important in this thread but I am really intrigued, as well. You believe Angelus was faithful to Buffy? No longer desired Dru? Didn't want to hurt Spike's feelings? I can't wrap my lobes around this one. Can you find the Noxon quote?😕

---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------

Except for an Angel fan...

Now, now, children - play nicely or there will be no lemon cakes.😀

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12738]bespangeled[/MENTION]

Willow, Dawn, Anya, Andrew and Giles are all human

Yes, and? All we know is ensouled, but stronger than human, where does it say that it can't be a human?

Yes, hate is a passion - so is love. If I need to hate your character, or you ship, or your OTP then I'm not just passionate, I am channeling a lot of emotional energy from somewhere else. I disagree with a fair amount of your views and I am very passionate about the show.

Funny thing, I actually love Spike. I love him about just as much as I love Buffy and Willow, my favorite characters. I also hate him just about as much as I hate Buffy and Buffy? I hate her a lot. Will too. See, I can do both. I love Spike the monster and the masochist, I hate Spike the robot-shagging, panties-snagging creepy ass loser. I love Spike the awesome charismatic asshole that's really an, you now, insecure, sensitive dude and I hate him for being a spineless well, wanker, this pathetic, proverbial nice guy he becomes in season 7 with his bullshit, bad romantic poetry inspired ass-kissing speeches and white knight garbage.

The only characters I can love unconditionally are those from porn movies. As long as the character has any depth, there is always something to hate, otherwise, it's just a shitty character. I mean, art is supposed to piss you off, if I don't hate it, it's shit.

 

[bespangeled]

But thats not special. Spike gets made out to be unique for that, which he's not. I'm not denying it's great he asked to wear it, I'm not saying it takes anything away from the good he did by wearing it. But making out that spike is special when he's not just isn't true. Spike asking to wear the amulet is no more special than anyone else going into that fight that day, and wearing that amulet wasn't something specific to Spike/

So Spike is no more special than anyone who puts their life on the line that day - yeah, I can definitely agree here.

It's not about hating YOUR character, YOUR ship or YOUR otp, it's about not liking a character that a lot of people dont like as a character becasue of who he is and what he's done. No one here "hating" on Spike has been hating on spike, everyone has used evidence from the show to back up their points, yet they are being accused of hating - that is just the opposite of "hating", it's using "hating" as an excuse to get out of actually replying.

But hey as I said before with all the incredible hate flying around here I doubt whatever anyone said you'd still dismiss it.Hate is passion. Enthusiasts hate because they just care so much. When you bitch about hate you ask us to stop being so passionate about the stuff we love. How about no?

I was just responding to this statement - hate is already the main part of the discussion. Basically I agree with you here, too. It's a tough line to master trying to avoid stereotypes both of characters and other fans. But I really don't believe there is any true hatred here. As new as I am I know that if I needed help anyone here who could would help. That's not hatred.

---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 PM ----------

[MENTION=12738]bespangeled[/MENTION]


Yes, and? All we know is ensouled, but stronger than human, where does it say that it can't be a human?



Funny thing, I actually love Spike. I love him about just as much as I love Buffy and Willow, my favorite characters. I also hate him just about as much as I hate Buffy and Buffy? I hate her a lot. Will too. See, I can do both. I love Spike the monster and the masochist, I hate Spike the robot-shagging, panties-snagging creepy ass loser. I love Spike the awesome charismatic asshole that's really an, you now, insecure, sensitive dude and I hate him for being a spineless well, wanker, this pathetic, proverbial nice guy he becomes in season 7 with his bullshit, bad romantic poetry inspired ass-kissing speeches and white knight garbage.

The only characters I can love unconditionally are those from porn movies. As long as the character has any depth, there is always something to hate, otherwise, it's just a shitty character. I mean, art is supposed to piss you off, if I don't hate it, it's shit.

My read was that physical strength was required so that meant those who were not stronger than human wouldn't last long enough.

As for what you say about hate - it would appear the problem was just semantics. I can agree with what you write here - successful art creates an emotional reaction. I tend to see hate as pretty loaded - I would save it for Mein Kampf. But I know that is not the only valid way to use it, and I agree with your explanation of what you mean by hate.

So, what kind of porn do you watch? 😀

 

[janas]

I'm sorry but since this topic is commented also elsewhere, I avoid to continue to participate. I would not never, ever be called silly cow, in places where I can't replicate.
...but how sad! oh.. and of course I will refer to the moderators and the silly cow in question
...just saying

 

[bespangeled]

I'm sorry but since this topic is commented also elsewhere, I avoid to continue to participate. I would not never, ever be called silly cow, in places where I can't replicate.
...but how sad! oh.. and of course I will refer to the moderators and the silly cow in question
...just saying

Who said silly cow? Sorry - not following this at all.😕

 

[white avenger]

Now, now, children - play nicely or there will be no lemon cakes.😀

Hey, the double standard was created for Angel before Spike even showed up. A vampire with a soul is a totally different character than he is without a soul. He may feel the guilt for what his alter ego did, he may even want to somehow make up for all the bad things, but having a soul means that he isn't held guilty for those things. Otherwise, Buffy would have fallen in love with a murdering rapist who takes pleasure in emotionally destroying his victims before he ever kills them. No Angel fan honestly believes that she could ever do anything like that, now, do they?

And would you consider making that chocolate chip cookies? Lemon cakes give me heartburn.

 

[bespangeled]

Hey, the double standard was created for Angel before Spike even showed up. A vampire with a soul is a totally different character than he is without a soul. He may feel the guilt for what his alter ego did, he may even want to somehow make up for all the bad things, but having a soul means that he isn't held guilty for those things. Otherwise, Buffy would have fallen in love with a murdering rapist who takes pleasure in emotionally destroying his victims before he ever kills them. No Angel fan honestly believes that she could ever do anything like that, now, do they?

And would you consider making that chocolate chip cookies? Lemon cakes give me heartburn.

Chocolate chunk on the way - uhm...with or without nuts?

 

[ladydorotea]

until Spike turns himself into Buffy, and then begs her to kill him, twice. Once Buffy tells Spike she believes in him we, the audience, are in the same position as anyone on the screen. Do we believe Buffy? Or do we do what the First clearly wants?

I have to point out that Spike's 'turning himself into Buffy' already happened in SS4-5-6, after him getting a chip, then basically parasite-ing himself off Buffy and Co for blood, cash, shelter, etc. I am not saying that his attitude in S7 did not change, but I have to disagree with treating his 'turning into' as an act of 'turning to the side of good for good's sake'. Buffy is not just a Slayer and general, she is also a woman Spike still desires. As such ,I treat his bee-lining back to her ('see - I got a soul now, surely you will give me another chance ?'), with more contempt than approval. Spike is weak, he is half-mad, he needs shelter, and he hopes for a second chance with her. Why his turning himself into should be treated as anything different from Angel trying to get back together with Darla after a few months with a soul? Begging to kill him does not sound anywhere close to sincere to me either. Shrug. He knows she is a sucker for repentance and forgiveness - as his numerous references to Angel and how she forgave him prove. Now, if he turned himself into Kendra or Nikki or even Faith... but that never happened, did it ?

I also think that you are not very convincing with your continuous repeating of 'what First obviously wants'. What First wants is known to the First. First is cunning. First triggers Spike, then makes sure Buffy finds him in the school basement. If Firts simply wanted Spike dusted it was easy-peasy to arrange the dusting by any of the Bringers or any half-assed potential. But Nada, the first wants Spike with a trigger in his head and close to Buffy. Is not this just a bit suspicious ?

*2 Yes, the First is opportunistic. And It has not been able to make Spike attack since the scene in the basement where Spike was snapped out of it's control by tasting Buffy's blood.

Jeez, he went for Buffy's blood - and you cannot draw any parallels at all from this, nor sense the danger for her?

Spike is already a huge player because he was pure evil but now he has gone and gotten his soul - making him a real force for good.

It absolutely does not make him a 'force for good'. Not more so than Angel after getting his soul , but before finally deciding to do something with it. And, no, don't go into 'fought for it' rant please. Because I don't buy Spike getting a soul for 'becoming good' clause. He got it to get into the girls pants, as he himself confirms many times later.

Afraid he might lose Spike entirely, the First wants to cut his losses. That is the only reason the First would go to Wood at least twice.

This is absolutely not convincing. The First wants to provoke Robin into giving up to vengeful impulse, because it is the First. Such an action will increase entropy (aka chaos) , antagonize Buffy and maybe Spike even kills Robin instead - thus the First will score either way. The First is chaotic and opportunistic. Its designs are usually quite flexible , and it will be happy with either of the many bad outcomes. Dusting Spike just for jollies could have been done at any time. The point is in sawing discord, not in cutting losses with one (lousy) souled vampire.

The first wants Spike dead.

No. As I said already, the First wants to use an opportunity presented by triggered Spike to saw discord, and would be happy with any bad outcome out of many. Spike is not its target. Buffy and Co - is. Spike is merely its tool.

Giles - knowing this is being done for vengeance (evil)

Giles knowing that Robin has a motive other than protecting Buffy to kill Spike does not make killing Spike evil. Giles views killing Spike as something regrettable but needed to protect Buffy from herself. Once again, the First is not targeting Spike. The First is targeting the group around Buffy with Spike as its weapon. It does not really care if Spike is dusted sooner, or later, but it would definitely want to get Buffy seriously hurt with Spike being the point of contention.

not only allows bu facilitates - Giles is doing the work of the First. Not sure where you get the remove Buffy - never saw anything about that.

Now, this is the point where we completely honestly and utterly disagree with each other. I find your statement that by removing Spike Giles does the work of the First utterly preposterous. Buffy is way more important for First to remove than Spike. She is being targeted all along and if you cannot see this after all my longish and quite logical attempts to prove it - then sorry, I don't see the point to continue this.

The First throws first Spike, then uber-vamp, then Caleb, then entire Hellmouth population of uber-vamps at Buffy, and you still don't see that she is his target, not silly and helpless Spike? Sorry, we just have to cut loose and disagree onthis.

Giles knows he is doing the work of the enemy, shown by the fact that rather than do it openly he is diverting his putative commander to give time for the murder to be committed.

Once again, this is an utter and complete nonsense. Sorry, but it is. Not only Giles is completely logical in his conclusion that Spike is a danger, (and no, once again, the First can remove Spike at any time with a flick of its finger, its real target is Buffy, not Spike), him trying to do this swiftly and on his own consciousness only proves that Giles is both trying to protect Buffy from the First's machinations and also is willing to live with her wrath in order to keep her safe and her mission intact. Yes, we read him differently, and I could never get your POV here, sorry.

In a real war this would be grounds for execution.

See above. I see this as complete BS.

Once Giles expressed his reservations and Buffy turned him down he was bound to take her side in the conflict and not work behind her back - regardless of his rationale. This is war - he has agreed to that. Technically speaking - working against Buffy is disloyalty, sabotage and treason.

Disagree completely and also think that you are being a bit irrational in trying to turn the tables here. Buffy is not an Oracle, nor is she infallible. In fact, her pig-headedness has proven her wrong in matters of leadership vs matters of heart so many times, that I lost count. The whole timeline of the comics, for example, is all built around Buffy epically failing as a commander and chief, if you are curious. For me it only proves that Whedon had intention to trip her as a failed leader all along starting from S7. Which is not at all surprising - he likes subverting things.

My point was that by theorizing that Buffy was unable to simply throw off the influence of Spike is making Spike too important - moreso than even Angel was.

Nuh, Making Spike an 'epic hero' haunted by the First, when he is simply a newly en-souled person blindly stumbling in the dark, seeking path for redemption and self-awareness, where before he sought self-gratification and appreciation - is what (IMHO) makes him too important. In S7, as always, Spike is merely a foil for Buffy, a tool and a screen to show off her weaknesses and her strengths.

I don't see Spike even once trying to influence her - even with the chip he doesn't ask to have it out but allows her to decide. So this one is on Buffy's shoulders. By my take, you either follow her even if you doubt, or you say Spike is all powerful and Buffy is hi puppet.

Roll eyes. All his 'motivational' speeches are targeting her at her weakest spots - her propensity for sentimentality and forgiveness, and her vanity ( Remember her admittance of inferiority/superiority complex ? Spike does, even when he is half mad.)

Spike not only doesn't fall for her, he doesn't even hide that he was a witness, nor does he threaten to do anything. In a Watsonian way he clearly passes the test.

Spike is in a state when he wants real girl to forgive and maybe love him. And it is all fine and dandy, but we as an audience are being teased with his possible heel-turn till the end. Which proves my point - Giles are no better than we the audience, he has all the reasons to mistrust and to be protective rather than later being sorry.

 

[bespangeled]

I have to point out that Spike's 'turning himself into Buffy' already happened in SS4-5-6, after him getting a chip, then basically parasite-ing himself off Buffy and Co for blood, cash, shelter, etc. I am not saying that his attitude in S7 did not change, but I have to disagree with treating his 'turning into' as an act of 'turning to the side of good for good's sake'. Buffy is not just a Slayer and general, she is also a woman Spike still desires. As such ,I treat his bee-lining back to her ('see - I got a soul now, surely you will give me another chance ?'), with more contempt than approval. Spike is weak, he is half-mad, he needs shelter, and he hopes for a second chance with her. Why his turning himself into should be treated as anything different from Angel trying to get back together with Darla after a few months with a soul? Begging to kill him does not sound anywhere close to sincere to me either. Shrug. He knows she is a sucker for repentance and forgiveness - as his numerous references to Angel and how she forgave him prove. Now, if he turned himself into Kendra or Nikki or even Faith... but that never happened, did it ?

Wow - you really bring a lot of emotion to your posts. Okay - I meant Spike turned himself in when he realized he had been killing under the influence of the First. Not sure where you saw Spike make a bee-line to Buffy but I saw him flat out crazy in a basement for several episodes. As far as the rest is concerned, you clearly hold Spike in contempt and I'm not gonna even try to make a dent in that prejudice.

I also think that you are not very convincing with your continuous repeating of 'what First obviously wants'. What First wants is known to the First. First is cunning. First triggers Spike, then makes sure Buffy finds him in the school basement. If Firts simply wanted Spike dusted it was easy-peasy to arrange the dusting by any of the Bringers or any half-assed potential. But Nada, the first wants Spike with a trigger in his head and close to Buffy. Is not this just a bit suspicious ?

Yes, very suspicious. And not a good plan since none of it worked. Buffy found Spike in the basement and left him there. He did arrange for Spike to overpower and kill Buffy but Spike didn't do it. I think at that point Spike sincerely wanted to die - but I know you see that as a ploy. So - here's the question - why keep coming to a vampire killer - Robin Wood - appearing as his dead mother and complaining he was working with the vamp who killed her? If he didn't want Wood to kill Spike, then what was his goal?

Jeez, he went for Buffy's blood - and you cannot draw any parallels at all from this, nor sense the danger for her?

Parallels? Danger? He ran off and begged her to make his death quick. Not much danger there. At least not if you look at the entire scene.

It absolutely does not make him a 'force for good'. Not more so than Angel after getting his soul , but before finally deciding to do something with it. And, no, don't go into 'fought for it' rant please. Because I don't buy Spike getting a soul for 'becoming good' clause. He got it to get into the girls pants, as he himself confirms many times later.

No, Angel didn't choose a soul - he began as a force for neutral and became good when he decided to help Buffy. When Spike chose to get a soul he changed his allegiance from evil to good. That's true regardless of intent. As for getting into Buffy's pants - he has already been there. Repeatedly. At her urging. Since he never made any sort of pass at her, nor did he even touch her without approval or invitation after he got his soul, I don't think he was there to get into her pants.

This is absolutely not convincing. The First wants to provoke Robin into giving up to vengeful impulse, because it is the First. Such an action will increase entropy (aka chaos) , antagonize Buffy and maybe Spike even kills Robin instead - thus the First will score either way. The First is chaotic and opportunistic. Its designs are usually quite flexible , and it will be happy with either of the many bad outcomes. Dusting Spike just for jollies could have been done at any time. The point is in sawing discord, not in cutting losses with one (lousy) souled vampire.

I can live with that - yes he wants Spike dead just like he wanted Spike to kill Buffy. And his plans are multi-leveled so each outcome is beneficial. It didn't expect Buffy to do good - to refrain from killing Spike and even believing in him eventually. A miss for the 1st - Buffy is too good to do what is 2nd best (best would be dead Buffy). A win for Buffy - someone who is always there to watch her back.

So Giles was dispatched to get her out of the way while Wood took killed Spike.

Yes, most of that is my imagination but I do completely agree with your point.

No. As I said already, the First wants to use an opportunity presented by triggered Spike to saw discord, and would be happy with any bad outcome out of many. Spike is not its target. Buffy and Co - is. Spike is merely its tool.

Yes agreed - but that is deflection.

What about the real questions which were - is it okay for Giles to preemptively kill Spike in order to make sure that anything Giles is simply imagining won't come true . Is it okay for him to dupe her, and Is it okay to act out of fear rather than stay loyal even though you have fears. Is it okay for Giles to be a hypocrite who lies, connives, and facilitates preemptive murder behind the back of someone he claims to love and respect - for her own good - in other words someone who shows neither trust in nor loyalty to Buffy. Am I wrong on any of these specifics?

Giles knowing that Robin has a motive other than protecting Buffy to kill Spike does not make killing Spike evil. Giles views killing Spike as something regrettable but needed to protect Buffy from herself. Once again, the First is not targeting Spike. The First is targeting the group around Buffy with Spike as its weapon. It does not really care if Spike is dusted sooner, or later, but it would definitely want to get Buffy seriously hurt with Spike being the point of contention.

The First is targeting Spike, and Robin in order to get to to the biggest target which is Buffy - because everything the First does is is in order to get Buffy. The Chloe ruse targeted the slayer in order to get to....etc. Targeting any part of Buffy's army is the First's way of trying to win. Dusting - not that much of an issue - agreed. But dusting by her first lieutenant and father figure who takes her out to divert her while his compatriot murders the "the strongest warrior we have" and someone she has repeatedly say she believes in..

A lot more impact on Buffy.

Once again the issue is not dust, it is loyalty and respect. What better way to demoralize Buffy by killing a friend behind her back because Giles can't stop obsessively imagining things that could happen. (The fact is that none of them did.)

Now, this is the point where we completely honestly and utterly disagree with each other. I find your statement that by removing Spike Giles does the work of the First utterly preposterous. Buffy is way more important for First to remove than Spike. She is being targeted all along and if you cannot see this after all my longish and quite logical attempts to prove it - then sorry, I don't see the point to continue this.

.


Yeah - if Giles succeeds it takes out two of Buffy's lieutenants and a strong new fighter. He really weakens her severely. Giles choice to use his personal relationship to fool Buffy certainly resulted in her losing faith in him. Giles weakened Buffy's trust in both him and Robin, and it pissed off Buffy and Spike. Chaos sown - Giles has done the work of the First. That is the effect without a death.This is what the First wants.

The First throws first Spike, then uber-vamp, then Caleb, then entire Hellmouth population of uber-vamps at Buffy, and you still don't see that she is his target, not silly and helpless Spike? Sorry, we just have to cut loose and disagree onthis.

You are putting words in my mouth if you believe that is what I said. I've answered that objection repeatedly. Hurting Spike hurts Buffy. The same would go for any Scoobie. I suspect the First having Willow, or Willow killed would be even harder for her and the army. Willow also turned from dark to light, and she has far more power than Spike. But there was no way Giles wouldn't kill anyone except Spike. The First had to settle for 2nd best - Giles came through for evil, even though he had really given into fear he had a good rationale.

Once again, this is an utter and complete nonsense. Sorry, but it is. Not only Giles is completely logical in his conclusion that Spike is a danger, (and no, once again, the First can remove Spike at any time with a flick of its finger, its real target is Buffy, not Spike), him trying to do this swiftly and on his own consciousness only proves that Giles is both trying to protect Buffy from the First's machinations and also is willing to live with her wrath in order to keep her safe and her mission intact. Yes, we read him differently, and I could never get your POV here, sorry.

He's both logical and completely wrong. This was all in his imagination - as reality proves. None of his fears came to life - only one thing happened. Hurting Spike (or any Scoob) hurts Buffy. Giles is a traitor, letting his own fears take over and doing the work of the First. And I know you will dye rather then agree with any of that - and that's really okay with me. Just want to make sure this is for fun, okay.

If the First can remove Spike with a flick of his finger, why not remove Buffy the same way?

See above. I see this as complete BS.

See above - so is this. 🙂

Disagree completely and also think that you are being a bit irrational in trying to turn the tables here. Buffy is not an Oracle, nor is she infallible. In fact, her pig-headedness has proven her wrong in matters of leadership vs matters of heart so many times, that I lost count. The whole timeline of the comics, for example, is all built around Buffy epically failing as a commander and chief, if you are curious. For me it only proves that Whedon had intention to trip her as a failed leader all along starting from S7. Which is not at all surprising - he likes subverting things.

Buffy is the General, as Giles said. You obey the General in war. I'm not the one who used war terms here - they all spoke in those terms. If you disobey the General there are penalties. Of course, this is more traditional but treason of a close adviser will still hurt Buffy. Just season 7 for now, okay.

Nuh, Making Spike an 'epic hero' haunted by the First, when he is simply a newly en-souled person blindly stumbling in the dark, seeking path for redemption and self-awareness, where before he sought self-gratification and appreciation - is what (IMHO) makes him too important. In S7, as always, Spike is merely a foil for Buffy, a tool and a screen to show off her weaknesses and her strengths.

Agree with damn near every word of this though. I just think that the First is also f*cking him over too. Did I say 'epic hero'? He was a hero to burn to death - and Any was a hero, and everyone who died. Probably should be everyone who fought.

Roll eyes. All his 'motivational' speeches are targeting her at her weakest spots - her propensity for sentimentality and forgiveness, and her vanity ( Remember her admittance of inferiority/superiority complex ? Spike does, even when he is half mad.)

She seemed to think the "You're a hell of a woman" speech helped. She said it's why she got the....do I have to call it a scythe because it so is not. The red shiny weapon - and she was there with him. I really think that her refusal to say it meant something was the best sign that she really is not in love with him. Oh, and he talks to her like the close friend she is, a friend who has seen her good side and her bad side.

Spike is in a state when he wants real girl to forgive and maybe love him. And it is all fine and dandy, but we as an audience are being teased with his possible heel-turn till the end. Which proves my point - Giles are no better than we the audience, he has all the reasons to mistrust and to be protective rather than later being sorry.

Spike wants control of his own mind. Then he wants Buffy to succeed. And then he wants to die. He's pretty clear about that last one when he moves over to Angel.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

In the episode - not throughout history. Woods tells Faith that the First only appears to big players. Since the First not only appeared to but planted a trigger in Spike he is a big player.

Yes your right, sorry I thought you meant in general he was a big player, which he isn't. In terms of that episode and the ending of season 7, yes he is on the same level of big player as Wood, Faith and the potentials.

Why would he appear to Wood as his mother if he does not want Spike dead? Why is he unable or unwilling to trigger Spike after the attack on Andrew? Spike is getting stronger, asking questions, refusing to cooperate (do I have to cite each incident?) - the First wants to cut his losses.

Didn't Buffy tie him up and Spike kept getting triggered while in that seat? He was tied up again apparently tighter.
You keep assuming The first couldn't trigger Spike, which was never the case, nothing in the show suggests it couldn't trigger him.
The idea that Spike is fighting it is Bull, He's still needing to be chained up up till Lies My Parents told me.
The entire point of LMPTM is that Spike isn't in control, if Spike was able to fight it, why would they bother disarming it?
Why would The First cut it's losses when it still has Spike, killing him after the trigger is disarmed makes sense, not before.

You actually contradict yourself here. Why would he want Robing to go after Spike if her potential slayer army sees her defending a serial killer who is under the control of the thing trying to kill them and that is enough? Clearly it is not enough because he does send Robin after Spike.

But there could be a multitude of reasons!
He might have wanted Robin dead, if Spike killed Robin there is no way the rest of the gang would allow him to stay.
He might have wanted no one dead but wanted it to play out that it creates a division in the team.

(already a warrior for the Good because he chose to be good)

Maye it's how Spike fans word things that other people have a problem with, but this isn't true. Calling him a warrior for good, implies bigger things for him, like he is a chosen warrior for good. He isn't.
He never has a plan, or a mission, he's never sought out by the powers of good to fight for them.
He is a warrior for Buffy. He doesn't care about good, he only cares about Buffy.

So - sorry - you think Buffy is a bad leader and should have been ousted?

Absolutely! She was being a terrible leader!! Luckily she learned her lesson and came back to the gang a completely different type of leader!

Sorry - pot meet kettle. Mybe if one side decides to stop the other will follow suit. 🙂

This is getting incredibly annoying now. Please point out ANY of my posts that dont have points in them, where I just say I hate Spike and dont give a factually based reason for why. I complained that silverspike was replying calling everyone haters and not addressing any of the issues with actual information. I did nothing like that in any of my replies. Only two people in this thread have repeatedly replied and aimed insults at the general "haters" with no points, or aimed insults directly at people.

Did I accuse you of using double standards where Spike and Angel are concerned? Did I mention any Angel fan by name? Why are you so defensive about a mere general comment?

You quoted my post and made that statement. But if you didn't mean me, I'm glad you agree all my points are valid and I haven't used a double standard.

I think maybe you're getting way too invested in this topic. Why don't you try backing off for awhile, have a cool drink, read the newspaper, maybe go out somewhere with your fr... Scratch that. Go to a nice, calm Walt Disney movie. I highly recommend "Sleeping Beauty," or maybe "The Jungle Book." Phil Harris as the voice of Balu is truly priceless. It'll work wonders for your blood pressure.

Come back refreshed, calm, with a smile on your face and a song in your heart.

Try it. You'll like it.

I'll take a step back when I get so invested that I stop replying to the actual issue and attack the poster. Clearly you're already there, so you enjoy your break. when you want to reply with actual points from the show, rather than attacking me directly you should come back.

So Spike is no more special than anyone who puts their life on the line that day - yeah, I can definitely agree here.

Cool, then we agree on that. Spike gets made to be special on a level above the other, which he isn't.

I was just responding to this statement - hate is already the main part of the discussion. Basically I agree with you here, too. It's a tough line to master trying to avoid stereotypes both of characters and other fans. But I really don't believe there is any true hatred here. As new as I am I know that if I needed help anyone here who could would help. That's not hatred.

I'd like to agree, but I can't. When a spike fan replies to my valid, factually based points dismissing them just calling me a hater, that is being a hater

Hey, the double standard was created for Angel before Spike even showed up.

Exactly. It was created FOR angel, by the writers. The "double standard" for Angel is canon and part of the show so its not a double standard it's fact. It's not the same for Spike, Spike has no canon double standard, his are all fan excuses.

You made a point earlier that what Spike did pre soul shouldn't matter, yet you've also made claims that Spike is better than Angel cuz he sought out his soul. One of the biggest and most common double standards that never gets addressed, Spike fans want to take the good and dismiss the bad of presoul Spuke.

 

[The Bronze]

Exactly. It was created FOR angel, by the writers. The "double standard" for Angel is canon and part of the show so its not a double standard it's fact. It's not the same for Spike, Spike has no canon double standard, his are all fan excuses.

You made a point earlier that what Spike did pre soul shouldn't matter, yet you've also made claims that Spike is better than Angel cuz he sought out his soul. One of the biggest and most common double standards that never gets addressed, Spike fans want to take the good and dismiss the bad of presoul Spuke.

The writers merely established that having a soul makes a difference. It has nothing to do with Angel or Spike specifically. The presence of a soul affects the decision making process and therefore is important, that's what is canon.

You have 4 unique characters with different qualities and motivations. Angelus wanted to end the world, pre-soul Spike wanted to keep the happy meals on legs. Both evil in their own way. Angelus had an enjoyment for the arts. Spike appreciated some humans. With souls Angel has done a lot of good, putting himself on the line to save others often in his own series. Spike walked into the hellmouth and burned alive while others escaped. They've both done some bad stuff as well. Spike punched Faith and wore the wrong clothes. Angel ate people and ordered the mass murder of slayers.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

The writers merely established that having a soul makes a difference. It has nothing to do with Angel or Spike specifically. The presence of a soul affects the decision making process and therefore is important, that's what is canon.

You have 4 unique characters with different qualities and motivations. Angelus wanted to end the world, pre-soul Spike wanted to keep the happy meals on legs. Both evil in their own way. Angelus had an enjoyment for the arts. Spike appreciated some humans. With souls Angel has done a lot of good, putting himself on the line to save others often in his own series. Spike walked into the hellmouth and burned alive while others escaped. They've both done some bad stuff as well. Spike punched Faith and wore the wrong clothes. Angel ate people and ordered the mass murder of slayers.

They also established that is didn't make a difference to Spike(or much of one). But the fact it makes a difference to Angel, gets applied to Spike.
Spike tells Buffy he got a soul for her, how did he get a soul for her, if it's established that he is two different people?

In debates people want to point out all the good spike did and say give him credit, then you point out the attempted rape and it's "look at Angel he's the template, he's two different characters!"

 

[thetopher]

Man, I've been away!

I'll just try and address a few points that have come up separate from the main issue:

-There is no evidence whatsoever, that Spike was becoming 'less immune' to the trigger, or more in control of himself, or stronger willed. This is pure 'fanwank'.
In 'LMPTM' Spike hurt Dawn while in one of his rages- I for one don't think this was a deliberate act on his part, but you're welcome to disagree, maybe he was more in control and just 'aimed' that bed at Dawn. ('That's for the 'setting me on fire' threat, niblet!' 😛)

-The First was playing everybody who mattered and getting them at each others throats. Wood, Spike, Faith. Saying that the First wanted Spike dead just because it told Wood is simplistic. It wanted the forces of good divided, and it can be argued that, because of Spike, it almost succeeeded.

-Spike is special, not unique, when it comes to the finale. There are a select few that could've worn that amulet. Yes, Spike chose to, he didn't know what it would do, but he chose to and Buffy let him and he was brave in the face of death.
Let's just leave it at that and save ourselves a lot of time by staying away from words like 'champion', 'warrior for good' and other nonsense.

And after all that basically things haven't changed. Spike fans maintain that no matter what, Wood and Giles were wrong because everything worked out fine in the end- this is the main crux of their arguments.

I am now withdrawing from the discussions because it has been drawn to my attention that some fans (though not all, or even the majority) of a certain blonde ensouled vampire are engaging in personal attacks on people here by way of another site.

Hell, its starting to look pretty ropey on this thread.
For the record, without naming names, snarking from the side-lines, being patronising to people who are trying to have an honest (and passionate) discussion (and who are winning said discussion. 🙂), telling them to them to 'calm down' or some other nonsense or plain calling them 'nuts' is not cool.

Show some respect. 🙁

---------- Post added at 09:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 AM ----------

Hey, the double standard was created for Angel before Spike even showed up. A vampire with a soul is a totally different character than he is without a soul. He may feel the guilt for what his alter ego did, he may even want to somehow make up for all the bad things, but having a soul means that he isn't held guilty for those things. Otherwise, Buffy would have fallen in love with a murdering rapist who takes pleasure in emotionally destroying his victims before he ever kills them. No Angel fan honestly believes that she could ever do anything like that, now, do they?

And would you consider making that chocolate chip cookies? Lemon cakes give me heartburn.

Simplistic in the extreme. The 'double standard' you contend was explored in great depth all through S2 in 'Passion', and again in 'Becoming' Xander would handily kill Angel for the things that Angelus did. (As would Kendra btw.)

This extends into S3 through 'Revelations' and 'Amends'. Xander and Giles and Cordelia all hold Angel resposible for the actions of Angelus. It's only Buffy who (with difficulty) actually seperates the two in her mind.